Sola Scriptura -- what is the actual authority?

[Wannano]

Michael16:

I’m reasonably sure that these children weren’t taught Luther’s dark side: His anti Semitism, his advocation of killing German peasants rising against the princes that Luther relied upon for support,

Are young Catholics taught in catechetical class about the almost systemic anti-Judaism of the Church in Europe at that time? or about the brutal treatment of the Anabaptists by Catholics and Lutherans, or the practice of burning at the stake defended by the 15 and 16 century Catholic Church?
I would hope not.

Jon, why would you hope not? My understanding of how the CC has “dealt” with this dark part of the Church’s history is to say “the Church was pure, it was only evil people in the Church that did those things.” Regardless of what Church/denomination is being studied/taught it is a lie to not acknowledge truth within history.

 

[De_Maria]

You just restated the same thing. Sola fide never excludes the necessity of good works.

Sure it does. Why didn’t you answer my question? Did you just happen to miss it? Let me help you find it.

Do you say that faith is effects justification without works?

Yes or no, Jon. Do you say that faith alone effects justification without works?

Read the words. Read Galatians 5:6.
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

That doesn’t say faith alone. That says faith and works. It is very much akin to that which St. James also said:

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

2 verses later, he says, “not by faith alone”.

The dancing is done by those who think sola fide means an exclusion of good works.

Sola Fide does mean an exclusion of good works. See the Scripture?

James 2:17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The Holy Spirit, here, defines faith alone for you. Faith, if it has not works, is faith alone.

So, tell me how one can do the law without grace.

First tell me, who said that was possible that I should explain it? Perhaps, since you brought it up, you should explain it.

Two contradictory statements. Even Catholics believe we come to justification by grace through faith.

Correctomundo. But not by faith alone.

I believe that justification comes by grace through faith, and that it must be a faith the works through love. There must be good fruits.

Then quit calling faith alone.

The claim that sola fide denies the necessity of good works is false.

The Holy Spirit speaks otherwise.

 

[mcq72]

On the contrary, nowhere does Abraham proclaim himself saved by his faith alone.

Do you see Abraham anywhere boasting of his good works as merit towards his salvation or justification? Is it tit for tat? Does he boast in his ability to be righteous for his part in covenant?

 

[mcq72]

Jon, why would you hope not? My understanding of how the CC has “dealt” with this dark part of the Church’s history is to say “the Church was pure, it was only evil people in the Church that did those things.” Regardless of what Church/denomination is being studied/taught it is a lie to not acknowledge truth within history.

And a Catholic still follows a bad pope in faith and moral teaching because such teaching is separately guided (infallibility), irregardless of holiness in leader.

 

[Michael16]

You’re evading the question, mcq. Scripture states clearly that he obeyed and went out.

He heard, he obeyed and he did.

Where’s the confusion?

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

On the contrary, those who trust God are those who do the works that He commands.

We go round and round…

You go round and round because you want to justify your false doctrine.

do you trust in your works as meritorious towards salvation?

I trust in God. It is He who judges my works. Have you not read in Scripture:

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

I thought we agree that by faith and grace we are justified and do obedience to the law, even good works.

God justifies those who do His will.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Let me break this down.

1. Not by works of righteousness which we have done

Those who have done righteous works.

1. but according to his mercy he saved us,

Are justified by God.

1. by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

By means of the Sacrament of Baptism.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

On the contrary, nowhere does Abraham proclaim himself saved by his faith alone.

Do you see Abraham anywhere boasting of his good works as merit towards his salvation or justification? Is it tit for tat? Does he boast in his ability to be righteous for his part in covenant?

I see God boasting of his faith and works. Not his faith alone.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

[mcq72]

You’re evading the question, mcq. Scripture states clearly that he obeyed and went out.

He heard, he obeyed and he did.

Where’s the confusion?

Why did he hear correctly, obey correctly ? Did his unregenerate soul/ spirit have the ability for saving faith? Was it from within his own nature he heard and understood ?

 

[mcq72]

I trust in God. It is He who judges my works.

That is not contrary to faith in God …alone.

 

[Michael16]

Saving faith isn’t required to hear a command.

 

[mcq72]

I see God boasting of his faith and works. Not his faith alone.

Precisely God but not Abraham himself boasting…it is fine to believe, trust, and hope God would approve, boast, reward even glorify us.

 

[Michael16]

Again, you’re evading a clear and straightforward statement, mcq.

 

[mcq72]

Saving faith isn’t required to hear a command.

Correct…i heard a lot of commands before I was saved…even obeyed some of them…many religious one also…righteous ones even.

 

[Michael16]

Mcq, you’re evading clear statements. Faith alone says all Abraham had to do was believe. Acts aren’t required. Yet: Abraham had to act, i.e. works; to fulfill a command.

 

[mcq72]

Again, you’re evading a clear and straightforward statement, mcq.

No i agree to your scripture quote…we disagree as to what we glean from text, to which I put forth unanswered questions.

 

[Michael16]

Your questions were answered thoroughly I believe.

But, to be fair: Which questions do you believe weren’t answered?

 

[mcq72]

Faith alone says all Abraham had to do was believe

Not true anymore than Mary being the mother God means she created God.

 

[Michael16]

Why do you think we hold that Our Lady created God? She bore Our Savior; the Son of God. The second Person of the Holy Trinity. I.e., God.

Therefore: She is the Mother of God.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

Part of this is a terminology problem. It’s pretty reasonable for Catholics to read “scripture alone” and think it means, well, scripture alone.

Reminds me of same “problem” with Mary being called “mother of God”…needing more ink/ explanation to avoid normal connotation.

How, exactly, is that ambiguous?

Christ is God. Mary is His mother. Ergo…

 

[mcq72]

But, to be fair: Which questions do you believe weren’t answered?

Lol…i know…hardvto follow fast paced posts…but i think post 429. 3 questions on the why