Sola Scriptura

[Seeking_God]

I just love Proverbs 30:6 don’t you?

I love Proverbs 30:6 and also this in the book of Revelation, God delivers this blistering warning about tampering with His written Word:

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19

GOD, in His Infinite Wisdom, would never have given us one inerrant book,
without first giving us one authorized and infallible interpreter for it.
However, GOD did first give us one authorized infallible interpreter for it. He gave us His Church

Where does God want people to obtain their doctrine… from a priest - or from the Bible?

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Timothy 3:16

Paul is not alluding to the magisterium or church tradition here because the previous verse reads:

“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” 2 Timothy 3:15

Since the Catholic church was not yet in existence when Paul penned these words, he could not have been referring to the teachings of Catholicism.

While Jesus walked the earth, He publicly rebuked the Pharisees, the religious leaders of his day:

“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men…” Mark 7:7-8

Jesus was upset that the Pharisees had elevated their tradition above God’s Word because He knows that the Word of God leads people to eternal life, while the traditions of men lead people to eternal destruction.

When the Pharisees asked Jesus why His disciples transgressed the traditions of the elders, Jesus answered them with a question of His own:

“Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” Matthew 15:3

Jesus always elevated the Scriptures above traditions:

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” Matthew 22:29

God’s unchanging Word has always been the final authority, never the traditions of men:

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8

*Consider these words from the Apostle Paul: *

“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God…” 1 Thessalonians 2:13

When Paul preached the Word of God to these people, it was not Catholic doctrine because Catholicism didn’t exist yet.

“Have I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Galatians 4:16

 

[Evlogitos]

I love Proverbs 30:6 and also this in the book of Revelation, God delivers this blistering warning about tampering with His written Word:

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19

1. It is likely that Revelation predates some of the other works written by John.
2. In addition, there was no set Biblical canon at the time John wrote, and there would be no set Biblical canon for another three hundred years or so.
3. It is historical fact that the Old Testament of John’s era contained the deuterocanonical works such as Tobit and Maccabees, which have been “taken away” from Protestant Bibles.

By your reasoning, then, the Bible you presently read (KJV minus deuterocanonicals, by the looks of it) is illegitimate, and, at a bare minimum, every Christian before 367 A.D., and every Protestant after Luther, is under the damnation of God.

A much more coherent explanation is that the warning applies specifically to this book–that is, the book of Revelation.

Where does God want people to obtain their doctrine… from a priest - or from the Bible?

From a priest:

The things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. --2 Timothy 2:2

The Scripture itself testifies that the oral doctrine of Paul, taught to Timothy, is to be committed to faithful men, in order to teach others.

This makes perfect sense, since literacy rates were extremely low in Paul’s day, and books often cost more to produce than houses. The best way to spread true doctrine, then, was through oral tradition.

When Paul preached the Word of God to these people, it was not Catholic doctrine because Catholicism didn’t exist yet.

When Paul preached the word of God (note, orally and authoritatively–he didn’t give them a Bible and say "y’all figger out doctrine via private judgment ) to the Thessalonians, it wasn’t Protestant doctrine, because the Bible didn’t exist yet! All the books hadn’t yet been written, and it would be another three centuries before anyone compiled the New Testament in its present form.

The rule of Sola Scriptura did not exist in the apostolic age, and there is no indication that the Apostles told their disciples to suddenly start relying on Scripture alone once they finished writing and all died. So why should we later Christians practice a different rule of faith? Serious question.

 

[Seeking_God]

There is no Rapture

Biblical References
Matthew 24:40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
1 Thessalonians 1:10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter

The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The term Rapture, comes from a Latin word that means to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out. It is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the “time of distress.”

The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, “I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”

The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated “to meet the Lord in the air.” Paul then exhorts us to “comfort one another with these words.”

Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 - his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead:“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.” verses 51 and 52

Paul’s reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be perfected, imperishable and immortal 1 Cor.15:42-44, and 50-55.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
The inference of Scripture is the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The reason is the issue of imminence. Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matt. 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matt. 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.

Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. We are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13).

John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3). Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matt. 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.

Deliverance:He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Rev. 7:1-8).

But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3*6). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thess. 1:10) To affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation. Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah’s time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.

A Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed. The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 4-9)

 

[Seeking_God]

Someone needs to take that person’s Bible away from them, because they don’t know what they’re doing with it.

You suggest someone should have their Bible taken from them? Do you think such comments makes you a good Catholic? As a Christian, I suggest you pick up & read The Bible, not have it taken away.

But then, since you apparently think stained glass is evil, I mean why am I even wasting my breath?

Mis-quoting. Show me where I called it evil. What I did post is. It’s worship of graven images. Since no one knows how Jesus looks. I also add the fact it was made by human hands. Thus it becomes idol worship. Gods Commandment makes this clear.

Bible Commandment
2.Exodus 20:4-6 You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

When did Christians begin to accept that it is ok to engage in inferior thought processes? Wasn’t there a time when it was actually a sin to entertain completely un-sound thought processes?

The Apostle John stated that a person who is not growing in love, but remains hateful, is not a believer. (1 John 3:15) The Apostle Paul stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, "after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed – for our testimony to you was believed. (NASU)

GLory be to God

God Bless

 

[Seeking_God]

It is historical fact that the Old Testament of John’s era contained the deuterocanonical works such as Tobit and Maccabees, which have been “taken away” from Protestant Bibles.

The Apocrypha undermines Inerrancy.
Catholicism teaches that Scripture involves more than the canon accepted by the Jews, Jesus, and the Church of the first four centuries, i.e., the 39 books of the the True Christian Old Testament. It adds new portions to the books of Esther and Daniel plus seven additional books, which were written between the Testaments: Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Ben Sirach, (also called Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, and Wisdom. The Catholic Church refers to these extra books as “deuterocanonical works”-those that are canonical or scriptural for Catholics but which were never part of the Jewish Bible.
The Apocrypha undermines a doctrine of inerrancy because these books contain historical and other errors. Thus, if the Apocrypha is considered Scripture, this identifies error with God’s Word. This is why neither the Jews, Jesus, the apostles, nor most of the early Church fathers ever accepted the Apocrypha as Scripture.
Biblical scholar Dr. Rene Pache comments, “Except for certain interesting historical information (especially in 1 Maccabees) and a few beautiful moral thoughts (e.g., Wisdom of Solomon), these books contain absurd legends and platitudes, and historical, geographical and chronological errors, as well as manifestly heretical doctrines; they even recommend immoral acts (Judith 9:10,13).” Errors in the Apocrypha are frequently pointed out in standard works. For example,
Tobit … contains certain historical and geographical errors such as the assumption that Sennacherib was the son of Shalmaneser (1:15) instead of Sargon II, and that Nineveh was captured by Nebuchadnezzar and Ahasuerus (14:5) instead of by Nabopolassar and Cyaxares … Judith cannot possibly be historical because of the glaring errors it contains… [In 2 Maccabees] there are also numerous disarrangements and discrepancies in chronological, historical, and numerical matters in the book, reflecting ignorance or confusion …
For 1,500 years no Roman Catholic was required to believe that the Apocrypha was Scripture, until the Council of Trent made its fateful decree. Unfortunately, the Council adopted its position “for reasons of expediency rather than evidence.” Thus, it was “unmindful of evidence, of former popes and scholars, of the Fathers of the church and the witness of Christ and the apostles” in making its decision to include the Apocrypha as Scripture.
Dr. Pache points out that one of the reasons Trent accepted the Apocrypha was merely in response to the arguments of the Reformers who were attempting to defend the principle of “sola scriptura”-that the Bible alone is the believer’s authority.
Why, then, did Rome take so new and daring a position? Because, confronted by the Reformers, she lacked arguments to justify her unscriptural deviations. She declared that the Apocryphal books supported such doctrines as prayers for dead (II Maccabees 12:44); the expiatory sacrifice (eventually to become the Mass, II Maccabees 12:39-46); alms giving with expiatory value, also leading to deliverance from death (Tobit 12:9; 4:10); invocation and intercession of the saints (II Maccabees 15:14; Bar. 3:4); the worship of angels (Tobit 12:12); purgatory; and the redemption of souls after death (II Maccabees 12:42,46).
2. Catholic Tradition undermines Inerrancy.
As noted before, Catholicism accepts sacred Tradition as having divine authority: Vatican II emphasized that Catholic Scripture and Tradition “form one sacred deposit of the word of God.” Thus, “Both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence.” Karl Keating thinks that “…the trouble of [the] fundamentalist [e.g., evangelical] is that he labors under the misconception that Scripture has the last word…” and that Tradition “counts for nothing.”
Of course, biblically, there is nothing wrong with tradition. Even Scripture acknowledges its usefulness, but only when it is based upon apostolic teaching (e.g., 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6) or not in conflict with Scripture itself. When tradition reflects the truths of Scripture, this is fine. But when it denies and opposes God’s word in the Bible, we have a problem.
Catholic Tradition comprises a massive body of literature-the teachings of the early Fathers, historic creeds, the writings of Church scholars and leaders, laws given by synods and councils, papal decrees, etc. Today, one of the Catholic Church’s normal functions is to continue this refinement of doctrine and practice.
Several problems are created by the Church’s claim that this mass of data is, in some sense, necessary for salvation and/or infallible.

 

[Seeking_God]

First, there is the insuperable difficulty in authoritatively determining where infallible Tradition lies. As Keating confesses, “The big problem, no doubt, is determining what constitutes authentic tradition.” Second, the large amount of data itself poses a problem. Papal “Bulls” alone from 450-1850 comprise more than 40 volumes. This has led to “almost inextricable difficulties” for Catholic theologians. Third, problems relating to the fact of errors, demonstrable self-contradictions, and even denials of biblical teaching are inescapable. Fourth, contradictory Tradition and differences in the historical interpretation of Tradition have plagued the claim to infallibility. For example, even popes have disagreed on such subjects as religious freedom, the validity of civil marriages, the legitimacy of Bible reading, the order of the Jesuits, Galileo’s scientific data, and other topics. On rare occasion, popes have even sided with heresy, as did Pope Liberius (352-66) when he accepted the Arians who rejected Christ’s deity (cf, Zozimus and the Pelagians, Honorius I and the Monothelites, or Vigilius and the Monphysites and Nestorians).
Finally, the testimony of Church history itself proves time and again that when any other source of authority is put on par with Scripture, Scripture becomes a secondary authority. According to Keating, “Fundamentalists say the Bible is the sole rule of faith … Catholics, on the other hand, say the Bible is not the sole rule of faith and that nothing in the Bible suggests it was meant to be.” However, “We need only read Church history to discover that when another source of authority is placed alongside Scripture as of equal importance, Scripture eventually becomes relegated to the background.”
If Catholic Tradition were, in fact, “inerrant” and “sacred,” then it would not deny Scripture. Perhaps this explains why many of the Church’s unscriptural doctrines were added in the midst of debate and dissension among Catholics themselves. For example, at the Council of Trent not all participants thought it credible that the Apocrypha was Scripture. And at the first Vatican council, not all believed the Pope should be considered infallible.

 

[Seeking_God]

From a priest:

The things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. --2 Timothy 2:2

True, however not solely from a priest. Yet also among many witnesses. The witnesses are those who believe in Jesus, have given testimony to the Truth of Gods Words.

Divine, enabling gifts for service are bestowed by the Spirit upon all who are saved. While there is a diversity of gifts, each believer is energized by the same Spirit, and each is called to his own divinely appointed service as the Spirit may will. In the apostolic church there were certain gifted men—apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers—who were appointed by God for the perfecting of the saints unto their work of the ministry. Some men are especially called of God to be evangelists, pastors and teachers, and that it is to the fulfilling of His will and to His eternal glory that these shall be sustained and encouraged in their service for God (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:4–11; Eph. 4:11).

It is the explicit message of our Lord Jesus Christ to those whom He has saved that they are sent forth by Him into the world even as He was sent forth of His Father into the world. After they are saved, they are divinely reckoned to be related to this world as strangers and pilgrims, ambassadors and witnesses, and that their primary purpose in life should be to make Jesus Christ known to the whole world (Matt. 28:18–19; Mark 16:15; John 17:18; Acts 1:8; 2 Cor. 5:18–20; 1 Pet. 1:17; 2:11)

God Bless

 

[Danieleaton1]

thecatholictreasurechest.com/sorigin.htm

Good answer!!

God bless you!

Daniel

 

[ufamtobie]

Hi there Seeking God,

Yes, we can surely trust in the Holy Bible that it is God’s Word and it is a guide to Heaven.

You mention that the holy bible was written by holy people, who are these “holy people”? The Saints, the early church fathers whom the Vatican has Canonized and whom we Catholics “Venerate” NOT WORSHIP! Come on stop the non-
sense, AND COME BACK HOME "RCC’’

Your KJV bible arrived in the sixteenth century, by whom? a Catholic priest to top it off, now he Martin Luther and the others. I am sad to say they are your protestant early church fathers. Now wait a minute, that does not sound right. lol Now, if any scripture was changed added or deducted it happened in the 16 century comon sense should tell you this.

The Catholic Church goes back to the time of Christ, and that is documented and yours just started 500 years ago, and that is documeted now that does not seem to authentic to me, something is wrong here, very wrong.

As for veneration… Our Lord when he was given his cross to carry he venerated His cross, loved His cross whom he had to bear, suffer, and die, for our salvaiton. Why? cause the Cross was good and holy, Due to be venerated and loved and so He did and in doing so, did our Lord commit a sin because he venerated his cross, was that sacrilegious of him, did our Lord contradict himself? I don’t think so.

Moses, had to lift up the staff, a “staff” mind you, in order to win the battle in the desert, Now, if I was an Isrealite after coming back from that battle, I would venerate that staff, and I believe you would too.not to worship it but venerate it. Now why did God use a staff was that sacrilegious of him, again, did he contradict himself? Don’t bother, I will answer that question for you… “NO”.

Do you have a cross at your church, do you venerate it? As for statutes we venerate the memory of that good person, we do not worship them, only venerate and honor them, we ask them to pray for us, cause, the Lord is the God of the living not the dead.

If you still believe this, I guess you have to throw away all your pictures of your loved ones cause thats a form of veneration.

Now you say you are a Ex-Catholic, Now I think you are contradicting youself how so, well, you are still here at this Catholic website. lol

Your Brother In Christ,
Martin

God’s message is recorded in the Bible. It was written by holy people who were guided by the Holy Spirit. We can trust the Bible because it is God’s book. We can also be confident that it is the sure guide to Heaven. The Holy Scriptures “are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Timothy 3:15).

What about church tradition? Jesus warned us against tradition (Mark 7:1-13). He accused the Jews that they were “making the word of God of no effect through your tradition.” They should have remained faithful to the written Word. Similarly, church tradition has changed the clear teaching of the Bible. For instance, the church commends the veneration of statues even though the second commandment forbids the making of graven images and bowing down before them (Exodus 20:4).

The Midnight Cry and the Rapture of the Church
lightsource.com/ministry/love_worth_finding/

Love Worth Finding
Adrian Rogers

 

[Evlogitos]

The Apocrypha undermines Inerrancy.
Catholicism teaches that Scripture involves more than the canon accepted by the Jews, Jesus, and the Church of the first four centuries, i.e., the 39 books of the the True Christian Old Testament. It adds new portions to the books of Esther and Daniel plus seven additional books, which were written between the Testaments: Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Ben Sirach, (also called Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, and Wisdom. The Catholic Church refers to these extra books as “deuterocanonical works”-those that are canonical or scriptural for Catholics but which were never part of the Jewish Bible.
The Apocrypha undermines a doctrine of inerrancy because these books contain historical and other errors. Thus, if the Apocrypha is considered Scripture, this identifies error with God’s Word. This is why neither the Jews, Jesus, the apostles, nor most of the early Church fathers ever accepted the Apocrypha as Scripture.

Where to start?

A good website:

geocities.com/r_grant_jones/Rick/Septuagint/spindex.htm

1. Most Old Testament citations within the New Testament books follow the Septuagint textual tradition, clearly proving that Jesus and the Apostles accepted the Septuagint as their Old Testament. The Septuagint includes the deuterocanonical books, and in fact there are several references to the deuterocanonicals within the New Testament.
2. The Protestant canon of the Old Testament contains several works with historical errors. As merely one example among many, there is not a scrap of evidence that the book of Esther is even broadly accurate as to history. While Scripture certainly has historical value, I would suggest that it is better viewed as having more of a spiritual than empirical purpose.
3. I have already suggested that Christ and the Apostles relied on the Septuagint with deuterocanonicals as their authoritative work. The Church Fathers did as well, and it’s ludicrous to suggest otherwise, given that the Church Fathers ever since Clement of Rome (who cited the Book of Wisdom, IIRC) have used the deuterocanonicals. That’s not to say there wasn’t some disagreement, but if mere disagreement disqualifies a text, then we’d have to discard most of the latter half of our New Testament.
4. As to the Jews, history suggests that nationalism helped spur the insistence on Hebrew over the Greek translation, and that the deuterocanonicals were rejected by the Jews in part as a reaction against their frequent use by Christians to justify Christian doctrines (e.g., the Book of Wisdom having a prophecy of Christ, 1 Maccabees suggesting prayer for the departed, etc.).

When tradition reflects the truths of Scripture, this is fine. But when it denies and opposes God’s word in the Bible, we have a problem.

I completely agree. However, it is precisely Tradition that preceded the Bible (this is undeniable historical fact), shaped the Bible (how else would we know the true authors of various books, hundreds of years after the fact, and how else would we separate the true books from the false?), and interpreted the Bible (one need only read the Church Fathers to realize this). As such, when you divorce the Scriptures from Tradition, you remove it from the context within which it was meant to be understood, and you end up with all kinds of craziness, like Arianism, Nestorianism, Oneness Pentecostals, Gnostics, and basically the complete fragmentation of any meaningful doctrine.

As such, it is impossible–and arrogant–to steal the Bible away from the Church and attempt to interpret it yourself, as though somehow you possess the divine right to decide what it all means, more than the very people who gave you the Scriptures and bled to protect the faith they contain.

You see, you can’t set Scripture against the catholic Church. We all believe our doctrine to be completely in harmony with Scripture. You, obviously, believe our doctrine to be in opposition to Scripture. So it’s your word against ours, and is that any kind of way to settle doctrinal issues?

“We need only read Church history to discover that when another source of authority is placed alongside Scripture as of equal importance, Scripture eventually becomes relegated to the background.”

Cockamamie. Pick a few Church Fathers at random–perhaps Chrysostom, Irenaeus, and Athanasius–and delve into their works. You’ll quickly discover that Scripture was of immense importance to their doctrine, focused through the lens of Tradition.

In the apostolic church there were certain gifted men—apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers—who were appointed by God for the perfecting of the saints unto their work of the ministry. Some men are especially called of God to be evangelists, pastors and teachers, and that it is to the fulfilling of His will and to His eternal glory that these shall be sustained and encouraged in their service for God (Rom. 12:6; 1 Cor. 12:4–11; Eph. 4:11).

Absolutely correct, except with the Protestants it’s rare that you find two evangelists, pastors, or teachers who teach the same thing, much less teach in historical, holistic continuity with the doctrine of the Apostles (as opposed to their personal and subjective take on the Apostles). I would recommend you delve deeply into Irenaeus and read up on why he felt organic succession from the Apostles was indispensable for the preservation of the Apostolic doctrine (esp. vs. the Gnostics).

 

[wisdomseeker]

I love Proverbs 30:6 and also this in the book of Revelation, God delivers this blistering warning about tampering with His written Word:

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19

Where does God want people to obtain their doctrine… from a priest - or from the Bible?

**Do not be ignorant my brother. the bible cannot speak for itself. somebody who have a mouth will speak. a priest is there to explain the Word. otherwise you would not need your pastors to go and preach either. you could just pick up the book and never go to church and read and understand for yourself. but God left us a Church to teach and guide us. to deny that is to be in total ignorance. **

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” 2 Timothy 3:16

**I doubt you could understand or even have this Book if a God had not stablished an entity to keep and preserve the faith.

**Paul is not alluding to the magisterium or church tradition here because the previous verse reads:

“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” 2 Timothy 3:15

St Paul is most likely speaking to the Jews for they were tought the Word of God from the beggining from where the Church would be formed later.

Since the Catholic church was not yet in existence when Paul penned these words, he could not have been referring to the teachings of Catholicism.

While Jesus walked the earth, He publicly rebuked the Pharisees, the religious leaders of his day:

“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men…” Mark 7:7-8

what does it have to do with the CC? since she did not even exist yet. you try very hard to condenm and disprove the CC every way you can even quoting Scriptures that has nothing to do with catholicism. you must have learned that from somebody. you dont listen to the CC but you are learning from others who claim to speak the truth. you assume it is true but you dont know for sure, do you?

Jesus was upset that the Pharisees had elevated their tradition above God’s Word because He knows that the Word of God leads people to eternal life, while the traditions of men lead people to eternal destruction.

When the Pharisees asked Jesus why His disciples transgressed the traditions of the elders, Jesus answered them with a question of His own:

“Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?” Matthew 15:3

Jesus always elevated the Scriptures above traditions:

“Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.” Matthew 22:29

God’s unchanging Word has always been the final authority, never the traditions of men:

i can tell you who found your churches. can you tell me who is the founder of the CC? can you point out any man who claimed to have found this Church?

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8

*Consider these words from the Apostle Paul: *

“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God…” 1 Thessalonians 2:13

When Paul preached the Word of God to these people, it was not Catholic doctrine because Catholicism didn’t exist yet.

**That is correct. why then are you using these verses to disprove ther CC then? **
**Yes, that was the begenning of the Church. that is what the Church still teaches today the Word of God. the Bible cannot be separated from the Church or vice and verse. **

“Have I then become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Galatians 4:16

**i dont see how any of this has any to do with the CC. since Jesus is speaking to the Jews in the Sanhedrin and not to the CC. He was not even speaking to the apostles in charge of building His Church. **
**you can come up with all the verses you want in the Bible to disprove the CC but you will not succeed. you are trying to condenm the Church that Jesus Himself built and promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. **

 

[honeysuckle]

Biblical References
Matthew 24:40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
1 Thessalonians 1:10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Thessalonians 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed
Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter

The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church. The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.

The term Rapture, comes from a Latin word that means to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out. It is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, “caught up,” is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.

]

You just aren’t demonstrating that you grasp the salient points in these arguments, considering what you’ve just posted does nothing to substantiate your positoin and does not even address the relevant point made to you- the Rapture is a Protestant tradition.

It’s very frustrating to me when people who are wrong and poor debaters will not modify their views in light of evidence, or at least admit that they do not have a good argument and choose to fall back on faith.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi there Seeking God,

Yes, we can surely trust in the Holy Bible that it is God’s Word and it is a guide to Heaven.

You mention that the holy bible was written by holy people, who are these “holy people”? The Saints, the early church fathers whom the Vatican has Canonized and whom we Catholics “Venerate” NOT WORSHIP! Come on stop the non-
sense, AND COME BACK HOME "RCC’’

Your KJV bible arrived in the sixteenth century, by whom? a Catholic priest to top it off, now he Martin Luther and the others. I am sad to say they are your protestant early church fathers. Now wait a minute, that does not sound right. lol Now, if any scripture was changed added or deducted it happened in the 16 century comon sense should tell you this.

The Catholic Church goes back to the time of Christ, and that is documented and yours just started 500 years ago, and that is documeted now that does not seem to authentic to me, something is wrong here, very wrong.

As for veneration… Our Lord when he was given his cross to carry he venerated His cross, loved His cross whom he had to bear, suffer, and die, for our salvaiton. Why? cause the Cross was good and holy, Due to be venerated and loved and so He did and in doing so, did our Lord commit a sin because he venerated his cross, was that sacrilegious of him, did our Lord contradict himself? I don’t think so.

Moses, had to lift up the staff, a “staff” mind you, in order to win the battle in the desert, Now, if I was an Isrealite after coming back from that battle, I would venerate that staff, and I believe you would too.not to worship it but venerate it. Now why did God use a staff was that sacrilegious of him, again, did he contradict himself? Don’t bother, I will answer that question for you… “NO”.

Do you have a cross at your church, do you venerate it? As for statutes we venerate the memory of that good person, we do not worship them, only venerate and honor them, we ask them to pray for us, cause, the Lord is the God of the living not the dead.

If you still believe this, I guess you have to throw away all your pictures of your loved ones cause thats a form of veneration.

Now you say you are a Ex-Catholic, Now I think you are contradicting youself how so, well, you are still here at this Catholic website. lol

Your Brother In Christ,
Martin

Now i will add to that. how about the snake of bronze? made to heal the people. how about the Ark that was used by the people that brought down the walls of Jericho? it sounds like a procession to me.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi there Seeking God,

Yes, we can surely trust in the Holy Bible that it is God’s Word and it is a guide to Heaven.

You mention that the holy bible was written by holy people, who are these “holy people”? The Saints, the early church fathers whom the Vatican has Canonized and whom we Catholics “Venerate” NOT WORSHIP! Come on stop the non-
sense, AND COME BACK HOME "RCC’’

Your KJV bible arrived in the sixteenth century, by whom? a Catholic priest to top it off, now he Martin Luther and the others. I am sad to say they are your protestant early church fathers. Now wait a minute, that does not sound right. lol Now, if any scripture was changed added or deducted it happened in the 16 century comon sense should tell you this.

The Catholic Church goes back to the time of Christ, and that is documented and yours just started 500 years ago, and that is documeted now that does not seem to authentic to me, something is wrong here, very wrong.

As for veneration… Our Lord when he was given his cross to carry he venerated His cross, loved His cross whom he had to bear, suffer, and die, for our salvaiton. Why? cause the Cross was good and holy, Due to be venerated and loved and so He did and in doing so, did our Lord commit a sin because he venerated his cross, was that sacrilegious of him, did our Lord contradict himself? I don’t think so.

Moses, had to lift up the staff, a “staff” mind you, in order to win the battle in the desert, Now, if I was an Isrealite after coming back from that battle, I would venerate that staff, and I believe you would too.not to worship it but venerate it. Now why did God use a staff was that sacrilegious of him, again, did he contradict himself? Don’t bother, I will answer that question for you… “NO”.

Do you have a cross at your church, do you venerate it? As for statutes we venerate the memory of that good person, we do not worship them, only venerate and honor them, we ask them to pray for us, cause, the Lord is the God of the living not the dead.

If you still believe this, I guess you have to throw away all your pictures of your loved ones cause thats a form of veneration.

Now you say you are a Ex-Catholic, Now I think you are contradicting youself how so, well, you are still here at this Catholic website. lol

Your Brother In Christ,
Martin

Now i will add to that. how about the snake of bronze? made to heal the people. how about the Ark that was used by the people that brought down the walls of Jericho? it sounds like a procession to me.

 

[Gamera]

His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself Psalm 119:160…Jesus’ Word is absolutely sufficient in itself.

And God’s word consists of two things: (1) Scripture, and (2) Apostolic Tradition (1 Thes 2:13). Yes, God’s word – in its entirety, not just the portion contained in the Bible – is absolutely sufficent in itself.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**“Let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the
Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, was preached by the Apostles, and was preserved by the Fathers On this was the Church founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is nor any longer ought to be called a Christian.”
St. Athanasius, Letter to Serapion of Thmuis, 359 A.D… **

Please dont tell that this do not apply today.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeking_God
His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself Psalm 119:160…Jesus’ Word is absolutely sufficient in itself. **

How can Our Lord go against His own Words?

What is the foundation and pillar of truth? What is a pillar? Is the pillar of truth the Bible? If you think so, then why does the Bible say it is the Church? 1Tim 3:15

Did Jesus Christ say that the Bible is the final authority on earth? No, He did not. Jesus Christ said the final authority is the Church. Matt 18:15-18. The Church has the final authority to mitigate disputes, and to dispense the truth.

" The Church is the guardian and the dispenser of truth, because the Bible said so."

***“If GOD is for us, who is against us?”***Romans 8:31​

 

[Chellow]

Let me see what came first the bible or the Church? The bible we have was put together some three hundred years after Christ so the first Christian where not Sola Scriptura, I guest not because the bible as we have it didn’t exist.

 

[Gara3987]

I thought Jesus was the first to teach from Scripture alone. Then the Apostles.

God Bless

Yes He did, and Our Lord Christ also founded his Church: “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” He then said: “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.” Matthew 28: 20 DRB]

For one Christ founded His church through Peter (Saint Pope Peter; our first pope), not Martin Luther, or Henry VIII, or Menno Simons, or John Calvin, etc. but Saint Peter the Apostle. He also stated that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” and also "behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.**”

**In layman’s terms He found His Church and ensured us that she shall never fall, so Those who break away from Rome contravene what our Lord has ensured us about his Church, that She will never fall.

    We must remember that Our Lord said, “I am the Truth”*John 14, 6*].   What is truth?   Truth omits          error, it is conformity to reality or actuality.   He founded his Church and said, “And if he          will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen” *[Matthew 18: 17]*.  Again He told His Apostles, “he that despiseth you,          despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me” *[Luke 10: 16]* and,          “He that is not with me, is against me” *Luke 11:23; Matth. 12:30*].   Would you come to believe that if Our Lord is          truly present in the Holy Eucharist, would He be every bit as pleased with the doctrine of those who deny          that He is present there?

Also Why would Our Lord say "And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen” if one only needs one of the five solas (in this case it would be sola scriptura) for salvation?

We can looks at this as well:

Saint Paul, in his Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, [1 : 7–10], states:

“And to you who are troubled, rest with us when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven, with the angels of his power: In a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction, from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed; because our testimony was believed upon you in that day.”

Also, in the same Epistle [2 : 8–11] Saint Paul says:

“And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him, Whose coming is according to the working of Satan, in all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And in all seduction of iniquity to them that perish; because they receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying: That all may be judged who have not believed the truth, but have consented to iniquity.”

Luke 13, 22-27 it states:
And he went through the cities and towns teaching, and making his journey to Jerusalem. And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are. Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

“Shall seek”… Shall desire to be saved; but for want of taking sufficient pains, and being thoroughly in earnest, shall not attain to it.

it is saying that one may believe that they know Christ as a Non–Catholic Christian, regardless if it is dominational or non-dominational, those outside the Catholic Faith are wrong and are lead by Satan. (Refer to Second Epistle to the Thessalonians II, VIII – XI)

Other Biblical References:
/ John 5:24 ; 13:20 ; 14:6 ; / 1 John 2:23 / 2 John 1:9 / Luke 10:16 ; 11:23 / Mark 16:16 / Matthew 10:40 ; 12:30 ; 12:32 ; 18:17 / 1 Corinthians 5:11 / 2 Thessalonians 3:14–15 /

 

[Gara3987]

The proof lies in the fact that the Catholic Church alone corresponds exactly to the exact religion established by Christ. Now the Christian religion is that religion which—

•                          Was founded by Christ personally;

•                          Has existed continuously since the time of Christ;

•                          Is Catholic or universal, in accordance with Christ's command to go to all                              the world and teach all nations;

•                          Demands that all her members admit the same doctrine;

•                          Exercises divine authority over her subjects, since Christ said that if a                              man would not hear the Church he would be as the heathen.
                Now the Catholic Church alone can claim—

•                          To have been founded by Christ personally.   All other Churches disappear                              as you go back through history.   Christ said, "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock                              I will build my Church."   There are many claimants to the honor of being                              Christ's Church.   But among all non-Catholic Churches, we find one built on a                              John Wesley; another on a Martin Luther; another on a Mrs. Eddy, etc. But the                              Catholic Church alone can possibly claim to have been built on Peter, the chief                              of the Apostles, and one-time Bishop of Rome.

•                          To have existed in all the centuries since Christ.

•                          That every one of her members admits exactly the same essential                              doctrines.

•                          To be Catholic or universal.

•                          To speak with a voice of true authority in the name of God.
                                                                  By                         *REV. DR. LESLIE RUMBLE, M.S.C.*
                    Edited in Collaboration with
                    *REV. CHARLES MORTIMER CARTY*
                    With a Preface by
                    *RT. REV. MSGR. FULTON J. SHEEN, D.D.*                     
  
                                         6024 Raidio REPLIES 
                    (1938 CHAPTER EIGHT-THE TRUTH OF CATHOLICISM)
                    on
                    CATHOLICISM, PROTESTANTISM, JUDAISM, PAGANISM AND COMMUNISM
                    Given from the Catholic Broadcasting Station 2SM Sydney, Australia