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lil_flower_luv
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Right on, Patrick!
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Timothy17
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that all magic, at its core, is a desire to control or manipulate the wills of “others,” or - to use a term His Holiness is fond of, “the other (or ‘the Other’).” Further, magic at least insinuates that we can control the universe, or aspects of it, independent of morality or God, which is the old lie of the devil. Now, even though this may seem true - that we can control the universe of our own will and volition - we risk forgetting that without God there simply is nothing or, stated otherwise, we can do nothing outside of God, who Himself sustains the entire universe, us included. Our “powers” over the universe or reality are never independent of God’s own real and actual sovereignty.
The above reason alone is reasonable grounds to discourage people from subscribing to Harry Potter and the like as nothing more than superstition and folly, which always debases man. Harry Potter, by appealing to our senses and emotions as opposed to our reason, and as reason is slow to develop and difficult to acquire, children are more easily influenced and debauched by appeals to sensuality or emotion ; therefore, reasonable persons have a responsbility to safeguard them, especially their parents, from superstition and delusion. Defending Harry Potter as merely a momentary and fanciful flight from reality sounds reasonable enough assuming the audience is reasonable : children and quite often even teens (especially owing to the effects of puberty), though, are rarely so sound of mind in terms of being reasonable.
Pax,
Tim
The above reason alone is reasonable grounds to discourage people from subscribing to Harry Potter and the like as nothing more than superstition and folly, which always debases man. Harry Potter, by appealing to our senses and emotions as opposed to our reason, and as reason is slow to develop and difficult to acquire, children are more easily influenced and debauched by appeals to sensuality or emotion ; therefore, reasonable persons have a responsbility to safeguard them, especially their parents, from superstition and delusion. Defending Harry Potter as merely a momentary and fanciful flight from reality sounds reasonable enough assuming the audience is reasonable : children and quite often even teens (especially owing to the effects of puberty), though, are rarely so sound of mind in terms of being reasonable.
Pax,
Tim
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
I believe I was asking you to refute the fact these weren’t real demon names.
Please don’t compare HP to Narnia or LOTR. People do it time and time again. The differences are huge. Superficial is the word to describe the resemblance between Christan fantasy and Rowling. There is magic in both, but Tolkien and Lewis repeatedly warn about the danger of magic throughout their novels.
Please don’t compare HP to Narnia or LOTR. People do it time and time again. The differences are huge. Superficial is the word to describe the resemblance between Christan fantasy and Rowling. There is magic in both, but Tolkien and Lewis repeatedly warn about the danger of magic throughout their novels.
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RSD
Guest
I have just discovered this thread, and I have tried to read it carefully, but quickly because I want to contribute. This is a subject close to my heart for several reasons. If I missed or misunderstood a previous point, please correct me gently. It is not deliberate.
First of all, points that I so completely agree with, I do not think they can be argued: We as Catholics have a serious obligation to lead the world in morality, not to follow it. We have the obligation to avoid not only the near occasions of sin for ourselves, but we also need to avoid leading our brothers into temptation. Please keep these points in mind as I say the following:
In this fallen world of ours, no gift of God is untouched by the evil in the world. More particularly, our ability to receive the gifts of God is tainted by our own fallen nature. God clearly means for us to enjoy and appreciate the gift of the fermentation of grape juice into wine. Think of the first miracle. Think of what physical material is needed for us to celebrate Mass. Yet, all Catholics know that this great gift is so often abused that many non-Catholics truly believe that it is not possible to love God and wine. The problem here is not the gift- the problem is that the gift is not accepted and appreciated to God’s glory.
God has also given us the gift of being able to enjoy greatly our physical participation in the creation of a new human being. He has given us clear rules for the right context to enjoy this gift. And still this gift is seriously abused. So much so that there are some Christians who do not even believe that we were meant to enjoy this. Even some Catholics mistakenly believe that we are meant to try to procreate without enjoyment. The problem is not the gift, the problem is that we need to accept the gift to the greater glory of God.
God has given us the almost unbelievable gift of Himself in communion. Yet this gift if subject to many abuses, including but not limited to the horror of the black mass. Yet no Catholic would say that we should never again have the Eucharist, just because some people abuse it.
So just because some people might abuse a gift DOES NOT MEAN that it is no gift at all.
There are many books I have not read or movies I have not seen because people I respect told me that these books or movies were bad, for all shades of meaning of that word. I don’t think that I have to read or see everything in order to make a judgement. I have also avoided books and movies because people whose opinions I do NOT respect told me how good they were.
Now, given all that I will tell you what I got from Harry Potter, in my next post because this one is getting too long.
First of all, points that I so completely agree with, I do not think they can be argued: We as Catholics have a serious obligation to lead the world in morality, not to follow it. We have the obligation to avoid not only the near occasions of sin for ourselves, but we also need to avoid leading our brothers into temptation. Please keep these points in mind as I say the following:
In this fallen world of ours, no gift of God is untouched by the evil in the world. More particularly, our ability to receive the gifts of God is tainted by our own fallen nature. God clearly means for us to enjoy and appreciate the gift of the fermentation of grape juice into wine. Think of the first miracle. Think of what physical material is needed for us to celebrate Mass. Yet, all Catholics know that this great gift is so often abused that many non-Catholics truly believe that it is not possible to love God and wine. The problem here is not the gift- the problem is that the gift is not accepted and appreciated to God’s glory.
God has also given us the gift of being able to enjoy greatly our physical participation in the creation of a new human being. He has given us clear rules for the right context to enjoy this gift. And still this gift is seriously abused. So much so that there are some Christians who do not even believe that we were meant to enjoy this. Even some Catholics mistakenly believe that we are meant to try to procreate without enjoyment. The problem is not the gift, the problem is that we need to accept the gift to the greater glory of God.
God has given us the almost unbelievable gift of Himself in communion. Yet this gift if subject to many abuses, including but not limited to the horror of the black mass. Yet no Catholic would say that we should never again have the Eucharist, just because some people abuse it.
So just because some people might abuse a gift DOES NOT MEAN that it is no gift at all.
There are many books I have not read or movies I have not seen because people I respect told me that these books or movies were bad, for all shades of meaning of that word. I don’t think that I have to read or see everything in order to make a judgement. I have also avoided books and movies because people whose opinions I do NOT respect told me how good they were.
Now, given all that I will tell you what I got from Harry Potter, in my next post because this one is getting too long.
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RSD
Guest
The Harry Potter books, properly understood, are currently the most compelling children’s literature that thoroughly supports the following moral principles:
Evil is evil, and must not be whitewashed over for anyone’s job security or comfort. Evil can be seductive and appealing in many ways. Sometimes it can come close to deceiving even the elect.
The unity of family has an importance which transcends individual personalities.
Power must be used wisely and carefully. Some kinds of power are inherently evil and can not be used for good.
Trust the wise old man who loves you and knows a lot more than you.
To do right you must in the end be willing to give up your life.
Redemption is possible, even in the face of great evil. It gets harder and less likely the deeper someone decides to go into evil, but it remains possible while they live.
It is very important to be loyal to your friends.
There are times when it is really, really important not even to mention an evil (like St. Paul says).
There is lost more in these books. I could go on and on. Just as I think that we should teach our children the right way to enjoy the gifts of wine and sex, so I also think that we need to help our children understand what is good in books. To that end I really recommend that concerned parents read these books, and if you still have trouble figuring out what is good about them, get back to me.
Evil is evil, and must not be whitewashed over for anyone’s job security or comfort. Evil can be seductive and appealing in many ways. Sometimes it can come close to deceiving even the elect.
The unity of family has an importance which transcends individual personalities.
Power must be used wisely and carefully. Some kinds of power are inherently evil and can not be used for good.
Trust the wise old man who loves you and knows a lot more than you.
To do right you must in the end be willing to give up your life.
Redemption is possible, even in the face of great evil. It gets harder and less likely the deeper someone decides to go into evil, but it remains possible while they live.
It is very important to be loyal to your friends.
There are times when it is really, really important not even to mention an evil (like St. Paul says).
There is lost more in these books. I could go on and on. Just as I think that we should teach our children the right way to enjoy the gifts of wine and sex, so I also think that we need to help our children understand what is good in books. To that end I really recommend that concerned parents read these books, and if you still have trouble figuring out what is good about them, get back to me.
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rlg94086
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I’m just now working through the thread, but I thought I would point out an error in your logic. You established in #1 that HP may be a cause. None of the subsequent points negated that. #2 only establishes that not all kids who read HP dabble.
IMHO and experience…many things can lead to an interest in the occult, including HP. I played D&D when I was a kid, and one of my friends got into the Necronimicon (sp?). It happens. Does it mean all will go down that path? No, of course not. Should parents be cautious and look for signs of their kid’s becoming interested in the occult? Of course.
That said, we are an HP-enjoying family. My kids know it’s fantasy, and they know that the witchcraft is fake, and they know that Wicca is a false religion. We’ve had no problems here.
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irishpatrick
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I just wish more Catholics would understand and embrace their mission.Right on, Patrick!
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rlg94086
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If, by this, you mean that Catholics who don’t agree with you on Harry Potter don’t understand and embrace their mission, then I think you are being a bit unfair.
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Miserys_Fence
Guest
I would think most people on this forum are adults (or at least, if under the age of 18, definitely older children).
If you don’t like HP, don’t read it, don’t see the movies.
And–as I am an adult–don’t tell me what to read or watch, or tell me I’m a bad parent. I understand it’s quite a bit easier to do anonymously over the Internet, but I seriously doubt any of you would dare tell me to my face.
Miz
If you don’t like HP, don’t read it, don’t see the movies.
And–as I am an adult–don’t tell me what to read or watch, or tell me I’m a bad parent. I understand it’s quite a bit easier to do anonymously over the Internet, but I seriously doubt any of you would dare tell me to my face.
Miz
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Apollos
Guest
I don’t want to derail the conversation into a fine point of logic, but if HP were a cause, then all kids who read HP would dabble. Not all do, so the cause must be something else.
We do see kids dabbling, but it really stands out when we see HP in the same picture, so we tend to blame HP.
It’s like when everybody thought Jan Brady was allergic to Tiger, because she sneezed whenever he was around. Then, as they were sending Tiger away, she went back to get his flea powder and started sneezing. Mystery solved. (see youtube.com/watch?v=cFh31bTTbRo#t=02m55s)
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irishpatrick
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I would have no problem discussion HP with you, face-to-face or on the net. Makes no difference to me. I will feel the same here or in person…so please do not count me in your assumptions.
Adults can do whatever they want.
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irishpatrick
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That is simply not true. Some kids will be more open to the suggestions in HP< while others are not.
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irishpatrick
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Nope. I am saying that Catholics need to embrace their mission and I honestly do not see a lot of this across this entire forum. I see an awful lot of people trying to win debates and precious few concerned with the salvation of souls and the expansion of the kingdom on earth. I am probably wrong about that, but it is what I perceive here.
Catholics do not seem to understand their blessings and their place. We hold all of what Christ gave, we are the elder brothers and sisters in the faith…we have been given much and for that we must DO much and give much in return…we are called to help Christ change and convert the world. The fact that the world is in such a mess is proof that Catholics do NOT embrace their mission…there are 1.2 billion of us and if embraced out mission, the world would be transformed. Yes, this includes things like HP, which is simply a form of entertainment, nothing more.
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irishpatrick
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What I cannot seem to get across to people on the threads is that this is NOT an academic classroom or college. We are called to live in the real world, but not be of that world and if there is any reasonable chance that we can be pulled away from our mission, than we should avoid that (especially when it is simply entertainment).
Speaking of other topics or other books or other movies or lineage from this nation or that nation has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand: HP.
HP is either safe for kids to read and watch, or it is not. There is no grey. There are millions of choices one can make for their kids regarding what to read, HP does not HAVE to be on that list and yes parents do have the responsibility to concern themselves about what their kids read and watch (what does in…).
Speaking of other topics or other books or other movies or lineage from this nation or that nation has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand: HP.
HP is either safe for kids to read and watch, or it is not. There is no grey. There are millions of choices one can make for their kids regarding what to read, HP does not HAVE to be on that list and yes parents do have the responsibility to concern themselves about what their kids read and watch (what does in…).
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irishpatrick
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Nonsense.
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irishpatrick
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I will not get into side discussions, which is simply a means to sidetrack any conversation.
We are discussing HP and whether or not it is safe for kids. I question HP’s safety regarding all people’s souls, yet especially for children. I feel Catholics are better served steering clear of such books considering there is no reason to read them other than personal entertainment. (I did, however, remove the “100%” from my statement and simply left the word “safe” in order to accomdate you)
We are discussing HP and whether or not it is safe for kids. I question HP’s safety regarding all people’s souls, yet especially for children. I feel Catholics are better served steering clear of such books considering there is no reason to read them other than personal entertainment. (I did, however, remove the “100%” from my statement and simply left the word “safe” in order to accomdate you)
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John_of_Woking
Guest
- Draco = used in exorcism rites (specifically to refer to the ancient serpent The Dragon)
I dunno maybe not. At the end of the post I questioned whether they were demon’s names…I was by no mean sure! Oops how embarassing…
Nevertheless Fr.Tom Euteneur warns against Harry Potter…that’s at least 3 front-line exorcists…i am sure there are plenty more…
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John_of_Woking
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:tiphat:
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irishpatrick
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I have never claimed real demon names are held within. What I have claimed is clear:
People would do well to get their heads back into real life where real souls are being won and lost every single day. Souls that have only two possible eternal destinations, souls that should NEVER be put at risk in the REAL WORLD.
If you were a Catholic’s spiritual enemy, would you want the person to read the Bible, or read HP?
Take care to all and have a blessed Sunday.
- One future Pope spoke against the books.
- Two exorcists have spoken many times against the books (it would seem their expertise in these matters is utterly ignored).
- The Church is very clear about its condemnation of falling into any acts of divination, sorcery, etc…it is an absolute teaching, not an opinion.
People would do well to get their heads back into real life where real souls are being won and lost every single day. Souls that have only two possible eternal destinations, souls that should NEVER be put at risk in the REAL WORLD.
If you were a Catholic’s spiritual enemy, would you want the person to read the Bible, or read HP?
Take care to all and have a blessed Sunday.
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