Some Mormon Honesty

[MelanieAnne]

Pahoran,

While you’re busy trying to score points, others are trying to show you the truth.

It’s a pity you choose to continue to score points.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Thus you dodge the question. So tell us what a good, orthodox Mormon Dehlin is?

 

[SirThomasMore]

lol…I think I win the money. We had bets on how long it would take you to say that this guy was either an expert on Mormonism or some kind of hero.

Regards,
Pahoran

like I said, imitation is the finest form of flattery. If you can;t think up your own material, feel free to use mine

 

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

While you’re busy trying to score points, others are trying to show you the truth.

It’s a pity you choose to continue to score points.

What “truth” is that, MelanieAnne?

The “truth” that there are fringe Mormons?

Are there no fringe Catholics?

Does the existence of such call into question the validity of the faith of real believing Catholics?

Should it?

Do you suppose that fringe Catholics (if there are any) might be able to produce arguments in support of their fringiness?

If someone who knows as little about Catholicism as the resident Mormon-bashers do about Mormonism were to triumphantly point to those arguments as though they simply settled the matter, would you just fold your cards?

Might there just be a double standard in play here?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[MelanieAnne]

What “truth” is that, MelanieAnne?

The “truth” that there are fringe Mormons?

Are there no fringe Catholics?

Does the existence of such call into question the validity of the faith of real believing Catholics?

Should it?

Do you suppose that fringe Catholics (if there are any) might be able to produce arguments in support of their fringiness?

If someone who knows as little about Catholicism as the resident Mormon-bashers do about Mormonism were to triumphantly point to those arguments as though they simply settled the matter, would you just fold your cards?

Might there just be a double standard in play here?

Regards,
Pahoran

Truth, in its essence, is not a some THING, it is a some BODY. His name is Jesus Christ. When Truth is called a lie, the lights go out, darkness comes, and if your light is darkness, how very deep will the darkness be.

 

[Pahoran]

Truth, in its essence, is not a some THING, it is a some BODY. His name is Jesus Christ. When Truth is called a lie, the lights go out, darkness comes, and if your light is darkness, how very deep will the darkness be.

Oh, I see. So when you say that “others are trying to show you the truth,” you meant the truth that is in Christ Jesus.

Thank you.

Then let me tell you this: I know without a doubt that Jesus Christ lives; that he walked in Galilee and Jerusalem two thousand years ago; that he suffered and was crucified under Pilate and rose from the dead the third day, as is recorded in the Scriptures.

And I know these things because of what I have been taught in the Church that bears his name.

Incidentally, based upon what I have seen elsewhere, Mr. Dehlin’s unorthodoxies appear to include a non-literal understanding of such core doctrines as the Atonement and the Resurrection. IOW, Christ’s sacrifice does not atone for sins, and the Resurrection is a metaphor (if I am understanding his position correctly.) Is abandoning those things a suitable price to pay for divesting myself of “Mormonism?”

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[MelanieAnne]

Oh, I see. So when you say that “others are trying to show you the truth,” you meant the truth that is in Christ Jesus.

Thank you.

Then let me tell you this: I know without a doubt that Jesus Christ lives; that he walked in Galilee and Jerusalem two thousand years ago; that he suffered and was crucified under Pilate and rose from the dead the third day, as is recorded in the Scriptures.

And I know these things because of what I have been taught in the Church that bears his name.

Incidentally, based upon what I have seen elsewhere, Mr. Dehlin’s unorthodoxies appear to include a non-literal understanding of such core doctrines as the Atonement and the Resurrection. IOW, Christ’s sacrifice does not atone for sins, and the Resurrection is a metaphor (if I am understanding his position correctly.) Is abandoning those things a suitable price to pay for divesting myself of “Mormonism?”

Regards,
Pahoran

The Mormon Definition of the Godhead is heretical.

 

[Pahoran]

The Mormon Definition of the Godhead is heretical.

So it’s better to renounce belief in Christ than to hold to a heretical idea about the Trinity? Is that your position?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[MelanieAnne]

So it’s better to renounce belief in Christ than to hold to a heretical idea about the Trinity? Is that your position?

Regards,
Pahoran

Truth, in its essence, is not some THING, it is a some BODY, His name is Jesus Christ.

The Mormon definition of the Godhead is a heresy. Reject heresy and cling to the TRUTH.

Jesus founded a church (all others, including the Mormon faith, were founded by fallible men) and that church exists on the earth today. It is known as the Catholic church. It is where the deposit of the Faith is contained, and has been contained, for 2000 years.

(Edited)

 

[Pahoran]

Truth, in its essence, is not some THING, it is a some BODY, His name is Jesus Christ.

So you have said already.

The Mormon definition of the Godhead is a heresy.

I’m aware of your opinion on this subject.

Reject heresy and cling to the TRUTH.

Thank you. I have.

Jesus founded a church (all others, including the Mormon faith, were founded by fallible men) and that church exists on the earth today. It is known as the Catholic church. It is where the deposit of the Faith is contained, and has been contained, for 2000 years.

Thank you for telling me this.

(Edited)

But we were discussing Mr. Dehlin’s renunciation of his Mormon faith, over which such raptures have been given. You told me that people were trying to lead me to “the truth” as a result of his material.

I’m sorry, but I do not find that it leads to the Catholic Church. Actually I find that it leads, well, in a rather different direction. (I’m being tactful here because I don’t want to be drawn into criticising Mr. Dehlin’s beliefs.)

(Edited)

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[MelanieAnne]

So you have said already.

I’m aware of your opinion on this subject.

Thank you. I have.

Thank you for telling me this.

But we were discussing Mr. Dehlin’s renunciation of his Mormon faith, over which such raptures have been given. You told me that people were trying to lead me to “the truth” as a result of his material.

I’m sorry, but I do not find that it leads to the Catholic Church. Actually I find that it leads, well, in a rather different direction. (I’m being tactful here because I don’t want to be drawn into criticising Mr. Dehlin’s beliefs.)

Now you tell me that I’m being “snotty and juvenile” because I’m asking you to explain your rather cryptic remarks. Is it really “nonsense” to suppose that your response to me is actually intended to address something I wrote? And now it turns out that your real point is actually something different than what a wholehearted embracing of Mr. Dehlin’s views would support.

Which is fine by me; but how is it my fault?

Regards,
Pahoran

There are times where no amount of information makes a difference. This appears to be one of those times.

Please, don’t consider Catholic Answers as a feeding ground for converts. It’s not. Here we hope to provide information about the HERESY of Mormonism. We will provide information about the heresy of Mormonism as best we can. EVERY TIME we can. Because it IS a heresy.

And now I will put you on ignore, as you deserve to be, as you obviously do not intend to contribute anything helpful to this forum. This is NOT a good place for you to seek converts. GO AWAY. Go back to your little Mormon places and luxuriate in your heresy, but stay away from here. You know that evil you talk about? Those entities that left the Lord? That’s you. Think about it. That’s you.

 

[Pahoran]

There are times where no amount of information makes a difference. This appears to be one of those times.

Evidently.

Please, don’t consider Catholic Answers as a feeding ground for converts. It’s not.

That’s quite all right. Take comfort in the knowledge that I don’t “consider Catholic Answers as a feeding ground for converts.” I’m here to defend my faith against attack.

Actually the only person who seems to have seen this as “a feeding ground for converts” is yourself, when you tried to proselyte me, above.

Here we hope to provide information about the HERESY of Mormonism.

Well there you are, you see. I thought this was a discussion forum. You know, a place where people discuss things. And it seems to me that since my perspective on Mormonism is a good deal less hostile than that of a few here, and somewhat better-informed than many, that I might be able to participate in the discussion I imagined was going on.

I didn’t realise this was your pulpit.

We will provide information about the heresy of Mormonism as best we can. EVERY TIME we can.

And every time I can, I will counter the disinformation, misinformation and falsehood that too often is passed off as “information about the heresy of Mormonism” with something better.

I hope you don’t mind.

Because it IS a heresy.

Let’s pretend for a moment that you are right. Does that mean that any argument, however spurious, every criticism, however baseless, and every accusation, however scurrilous, should go unanswered?

And now I will put you on ignore, as you deserve to be, as you obviously do not intend to contribute anything helpful to this forum.

I’m sorry you don’t find rational arguments, or indeed any perspectives other than your own, to be helpful.

This is NOT a good place for you to seek converts.

As I said: I’m not.

GO AWAY.

I actually think it’s up to the moderators to decide if they want this forum to become a bully pulpit for Mormon-bashers.

Go back to your little Mormon places and luxuriate in your heresy, but stay away from here. You know that evil you talk about? Those entities that left the Lord? That’s you. Think about it. That’s you.

Think about what? The fact that you make accusations without support?

Okay.

I’ve thought about it.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[MelanieAnne]

Evidently.

That’s quite all right. Take comfort in the knowledge that I don’t “consider Catholic Answers as a feeding ground for converts.” I’m here to defend my faith against attack.

Actually the only person who seems to have seen this as “a feeding ground for converts” is yourself, when you tried to proselyte me, above.

Well there you are, you see. I thought this was a discussion forum. You know, a place where people discuss things. And it seems to me that since my perspective on Mormonism is a good deal less hostile than that of a few here, and somewhat better-informed than many, that I might be able to participate in the discussion I imagined was going on.

I didn’t realise this was your pulpit.

And every time I can, I will counter the disinformation, misinformation and falsehood that too often is passed off as “information about the heresy of Mormonism” with something better.

I hope you don’t mind.

Let’s pretend for a moment that you are right. Does that mean that any argument, however spurious, every criticism, however baseless, and every accusation, however scurrilous, should go unanswered?

I’m sorry you don’t find rational arguments, or indeed any perspectives other than your own, to be helpful.

As I said: I’m not.

I actually think it’s up to the moderators to decide if they want this forum to become a bully pulpit for Mormon-bashers.

Think about what? The fact that you make accusations without support?

Okay.

I’ve thought about it.

Regards,
Pahoran

Contrary to your obviously misguided opinion, this is an open Forum, but it is also a CATHOLIC forum.

Mormonism is a HERESY. That’s just a fact. Mormonism pretends things about the Godhead that are just NOT TRUE. You’re free to give your opinion, however misguided, on the faith. That doesn’t make it so.

The idea that you are not free to do express yourself on this forum is misguided as well. No one has taken that away from you. You should not claim such because it would be a LIE.

 

[SirThomasMore]

That’s quite all right. Take comfort in the knowledge that I don’t

 

[Eliza10]

[toahoran]
No, you are here to try to put the genie back in the bottle after we have spoken the truth about the LDS heresy.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement.

 

[Eliza10]

However, I also think Pahoran is defending what he ultimately believes to be the truth.

 

[MelanieAnne]

TRUTH, in it’s essence, is not a some THING, it is a some BODY. His name is Jesus Christ.

When TRUTH is called a lie, the lights go out, darkness comes, and if your light is darkness, how very deep will the darkness be.

Father Corapi

 

[Eliza10]

John Dehlin is a good example of the liberal Mormon. Here is some other positive stuff from a whole ward full of liberal Mormons:
spanishfork401stward.blogspot.com/

Like I say, their faith and culture are in error, but there are some bright spots.

Wow. I see the thread has been rearranged while I was out. Pahoran, you know, you do rile people up, get under their skin. How does that keep happening?

A bit ago I clicked on Long Journey’s first link here, and then from there clicked on heir link to the Awkward Family Photo’s website. That is HILARIOUS [sorry Pahoran; don’t mean to scream, but its really funny.]

The Mormon family photo whose link I followed was funny, but also intersting is the web blogger’s comment that, wouldn’t it be boring if, like their prophets say, the only clothing color in heaven is white?? Fortunately, we Catholics generally have other ideas, stemming from various sources (but alas, no dogma on the matter). One is when Mary appears she wears differet outfits of differing colors, you know? Not always blue and white, sometimes brown, sometimes scattered with stars. Also, in “Anne, a Lay Apostle”'s visions of heaven, there are so many dazzling colors. (a current private revelation visionary with full appproval of her Bishop and in submission to Our Church). :heaven:

Good links, Long Journey.

 

[catholic-rcia]

John Dehlin? Oh dear. A “very active” fringe Mormon. Let’s be clear on that point, shall we?

Regards,
Pahoran

I am curiouse…did you watch it all the way through?

In the Catholic Church we do have sin, bad thing have happened. I myself am a sinner. But we have always had the light (The Holy Spirit) along with Confession of our sins. But what we have not had is the confusion about doctrine and truth that the LDS church seems to have. And it is a lot.

Coming out of the LDS Church is like coming out of sort of dream world, then waking up to find Christ and His Church. The truth about the Cahtolic Church is the truth about Jesus. Its found in His Question to His deciples. “Whom do you say that I am”

This is on the index page of the Utah Mission

God always speaks the truth to us. Jesus described himself as “the way, the truth and the life” (John 14: 6-11). God encourages us to live in His truth through Jesus Christ, within the Trinity. Faith cannot be built upon a false pretense. Faith-seeking is one of the oldest preoccupations of the human mind. We seek to understand as best we can God our Creator and His love for each one of us. At one time or another we all may feel alone. Some of us have been rejected; some of us have rejected another. Some have come against great trials and given up on life altogether.

It is our hope that we can share the Love of Christ with you, because He can help our lives become happier and more meaningful. The peace that Christ can bring when we come to Him for strength in our suffering and our joy can replace every pill ever made, every drink ever drank and every new age psychiatrist that ever lived.

Jesus did not come to condemn you or me; Jesus came as a physician to heal us, to save us. As we all say together at Mass “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the Word and I shall be healed. All sinners are welcome in God’s Church. To know God’s love through Jesus is the ability to give Gods love(Trinity) to others. To help others find a special place in this life where one can go to receive unconditional love that only God, through Jesus can give. To find peace, true happiness in good times as well as in bad times.
This is truth
Rich

www.utahmission.com

 

[catholic-rcia]

Since we are on the subject of what is truth, what is honest.

I placed this on my site years ago as it really struck me, Do you sense truth here? Do you have a sense that John on the video is moving closer to this kind of truth? Seeing our fallen nature is a very big leap from not being honest with ones self. But you have to have Jesus to fall into to otherwise you will keep turning away, not wanting to accept certain truths. Unless you have developed a personal realtionship with Him its just to damn hard.

“The proud cannot bring themselves to hold out empty hands to God, they insist on offering virtues, good works, self denials, anything in order not to have nothing. They want to be beautiful for him from their own resources, whereas we are beautiful only because God looks on us and makes us beautiful. God cannot give himself to us unless our hands are empty to receive him. The deepest reason why so few of us are saints is because we will not let God love us. To be loved means a naked, defenceless surrender to all God is. It means a glad acceptance of our nothingness, a look fixed only on the God who gives, taking no account of the nothing to whom the gift is made. To lose ourselves like this is the most radical of despoliations because the last shred of self-importance is discarded. The very words and acts of humility can be a barricade of well-nigh infinite subtlety. Jesus came to us precisely to break down the bars, something we could never have done of ourselves. Yet we cannot live the life of Jesus unless we consent to leave our own pitiful lives, and this is what pride finds unendurable. Striving for ‘perfection’ is the most disastrous of the mistakes good people fall into. It feeds the very vice it intends to destroy. Most fervent souls are prepared to give God any mortal thing, work themselves to death, anything except the one thing he wants, total trust: anything but surrender into his loving hands. ‘You must become as little children’, whose one virtue is that they know they are unimportant.”

(above taken from Guidelines for Mystical Prayer pages 83-84 by Ruth Burrows, published and copyright 1976 by Sheed and Ward and used by permission of the publishers.)