Some Mormon Honesty

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Just my humble opinion and I don’t wish to cause offence to anyone here at all…

I do wish we didn’t feel it necessary to attack/question other religions.For those of us devoutly members of the Catholic faith would it not be polite to respect other peoples faith in their own religions.These people sincerely believe they are right,just as we do.
It would also be pleasant if other religions didn’t feel it necessary to try to teach us their beliefs.
LDS and all other religion members of this forum are here because they know it is a Catholic site.They can learn about our faith through our forums which is wonderful.They think they are right about their religion and we have our own belief and knowledge that the church is directly descended from Jesus himself.
So I just wonder is it really necessary to be questioning other faiths?
Love thy neighbour,and see Jesus in everyone?We are all of one faith just many branches.
Perhaps members of CAF of other religions will see our example of love and respect for all others and be moved to learn more.
Perhaps we do need to discuss other peoples religions, but they were raised to believe in thier own faith just like we did about our faith.So if we are trying to convert people to the Catholic faith perhaps with love and example rather than knocking others beliefs may be the way forward?It just feels like we are gloating and that doesn’t feel right to me.Humility and love would feel the right way for me.
God bless
I agree with what this 👍 I think it’s important to respect each others beliefs and certainly encourage the good aspects of other religions. I believe God does not abandon us just because we see him in different ways, through different religions.
 
Perhaps he hasn’t prayed enough, or has sinned and that’s why he is called a “fringe” Mormon…that’s what I was told…“you didn’t pray hard enough”…

stormy
 
I agree with what this 👍 I think it’s important to respect each others beliefs and certainly encourage the good aspects of other religions. I believe God does not abandon us just because we see him in different ways, through different religions.
Thankyou dazman for understanding my attempt at explaining we catholics should be a little more loving to our neighbours and show humility and good example to those around us!By our example of faith and witness to Our Lord ,eg living our faith we can help others.
God bless you
 
Perhaps he hasn’t prayed enough, or has sinned and that’s why he is called a “fringe” Mormon…that’s what I was told…“you didn’t pray hard enough”…

stormy
Stormy99,

When that expression is used, then what it usually means if the two people are being sincere, is that the person who needs to “pray harder” needs to first learn how the Holy Spirit communicates truth.

That means they need to learn, first, to explore their own heart as to whether they are being sincere, whether they are being humble, whether they have dealt with the kinds of issues in their life that might make it illogical for the Spirit to speak to their heart at that particular point in time–then, when they have also used their own best efforts to study just like the Savior showed the perfect example of how He had studied the Old Testament prophets and thus knew their messages–then a person is ready to pray sincerely and God will answer their prayer. Otherwise, to pray and ask without those qualities is merely making a show of sincerity without really being sincere.
 
Just my humble opinion and I don’t wish to cause offence to anyone here at all…

I do wish we didn’t feel it necessary to attack/question other religions.For those of us devoutly members of the Catholic faith would it not be polite to respect other peoples faith in their own religions.These people sincerely believe they are right,just as we do.
It would also be pleasant if other religions didn’t feel it necessary to try to teach us their beliefs.
LDS and all other religion members of this forum are here because they know it is a Catholic site.They can learn about our faith through our forums which is wonderful.They think they are right about their religion and we have our own belief and knowledge that the church is directly descended from Jesus himself.
So I just wonder is it really necessary to be questioning other faiths?
Love thy neighbour,and see Jesus in everyone?We are all of one faith just many branches.
Perhaps members of CAF of other religions will see our example of love and respect for all others and be moved to learn more.
Perhaps we do need to discuss other peoples religions, but they were raised to believe in thier own faith just like we did about our faith.So if we are trying to convert people to the Catholic faith perhaps with love and example rather than knocking others beliefs may be the way forward?It just feels like we are gloating and that doesn’t feel right to me.Humility and love would feel the right way for me.
God bless
TBCrawford,

I wanted to add my thanks also for your really great thoughts here. Thanks very much, and God bless you always.
 
Stormy99,

When that expression is used, then what it usually means if the two people are being sincere, is that the person who needs to “pray harder” needs to first learn how the Holy Spirit communicates truth.

That means they need to learn, first, to explore their own heart as to whether they are being sincere, whether they are being humble, whether they have dealt with the kinds of issues in their life that might make it illogical for the Spirit to speak to their heart at that particular point in time–then, when they have also used their own best efforts to study just like the Savior showed the perfect example of how He had studied the Old Testament prophets and thus knew their messages–then a person is ready to pray sincerely and God will answer their prayer. Otherwise, to pray and ask without those qualities is merely making a show of sincerity without really being sincere.
**God does not answer all prayers at least not in the way that we usually think of…his answer might be no answer or strength when we need it…my VBS children said…never pray to God for somethng you want…you use wishing stars for that…pretty austute for 4th graders… You may do all the above with no results…The Holy Spirit speaks to those who listen when they need him to…I don’t believe there is a special way to pray…

But it seemed like when a Mormon lost their faith…it was their fault…it was something they didn’t do right or long enough or hard enough…you have no idea if you meet your criteria but when you think so and no answer comes along…well what do you think then? What would you do then?

No one enjoys being told time and time again, you aren’t good enough when you try your very best. God understands how you try and if you fall short well, he lifts you up so you can try again…he doesn’t as far as I’m concerned say well you sure screwed up that’s it for you…no…not since he gave us his son for our sins.

What do you do when a prayer isn’t answered? How do you know if it is answered?

stormy
**
 
**
  1. God does not answer all prayers at least not in the way that we usually think of…his answer might be no answer or strength when we need it…my VBS children said…never pray to God for somethng you want…you use wishing stars for that…pretty austute for 4th graders… You may do all the above with no results…The Holy Spirit speaks to those who listen when they need him to…I don’t believe there is a special way to pray…
  2. But it seemed like when a Mormon lost their faith…it was their fault…it was something they didn’t do right or long enough or hard enough…you have no idea if you meet your criteria but when you think so and no answer comes along…well what do you think then? What would you do then?
  3. No one enjoys being told time and time again, you aren’t good enough when you try your very best. God understands how you try and if you fall short well, he lifts you up so you can try again…he doesn’t as far as I’m concerned say well you sure screwed up that’s it for you…no…not since he gave us his son for our sins.
  4. What do you do when a prayer isn’t answered? How do you know if it is answered?
stormy
**
Stormy,

Hang in there with me a bit. First, I agree completely with your paragraph 1–nicely said.

2–If I were in the situation you described, I would follow my heart and hope that I was in tune with God’s will in my life. But if as I explored being in tune, I was being unloving or unforgiving toward others, even if I felt like I was being misjudged, then I had best go right back to Christ’s teachings and realize that I needed to change and be loving and forgiving, then I could broach the personal quest of how my prayers were being answered. Maybe that was the lesson I needed to learn.

3–Some people are pretty impatient, aren’t they, when it comes to seeking answers to prayers and even allowing others to seek answers to their own prayers? I agree that God lifts a person up, allows for all kinds of efforts to seek Him and His help, and that the blessing of the atonement of Christ is so we can have imperfect ways of doing things and yet be lifted up and overcome our sins through faith in Him and through His help. That doesn’t change regardless of a person’s religion, so if you’re talking about someone who left the LDS church but is doing that in their life, then that would show that the LDS church didn’t meet their needs at that point in their life, but yet God is still there for them and loves them just as much (of course–goes without saying) and He can guide them as they pray and act in faith. (It’s a personal relationship–not a church-affiliated relationship.)

4–I’ve had many prayers “unanswered” in my life. I came to understand as a youth that it wasn’t that I needed to “pray harder”. It was that I first needed to learn how the Holy Ghost does answer prayers, and then I needed to learn that as you noted, some of the things I thought I needed to pray for weren’t the things that were best to have answered at that point in my life. I needed to learn through experience, not through a quick answer from God. (One of the biggest ongoing qualities I see that I continually need to learn is patience, so no answer is often a guide that I need more patience.)

I know a prayer has been answered when I feel a complete calmness and assurance about the matter in question or about the help that was being prayed for–an assurance that stays with me over a period of time and is not just a fleeting moment.

Wishing you all the best, and great peace in your life, Stormy.
 
Stormy,

Hang in there with me a bit. First, I agree completely with your paragraph 1–nicely said.

2–If I were in the situation you described, I would follow my heart and hope that I was in tune with God’s will in my life. But if as I explored being in tune, I was being unloving or unforgiving toward others, even if I felt like I was being misjudged, then I had best go right back to Christ’s teachings and realize that I needed to change and be loving and forgiving, then I could broach the personal quest of how my prayers were being answered. Maybe that was the lesson I needed to learn.

I agree with you, forgiving can often be the hard part some times.

3–Some people are pretty impatient, aren’t they, when it comes to seeking answers to prayers and even allowing others to seek answers to their own prayers?
Impatient is a good choice of words…I’m often impatience not in regards to praying but in other areas…it goes right along with a “get it done correctly” personality…and it drives me crazy at times. But for others to be impatient in the matter of my prayers…whoops, look out…it all comes in good time.

I agree that God lifts a person up, allows for all kinds of efforts to seek Him and His help, and that the blessing of the atonement of Christ is so we can have imperfect ways of doing things and yet be lifted up and overcome our sins through faith in Him and through His help. That doesn’t change regardless of a person’s religion, so if you’re talking about someone who left the LDS church but is doing that in their life, then that would show that the LDS church didn’t meet their needs at that point in their life, but yet God is still there for them and loves them just as much (of course–goes without saying) and He can guide them as they pray and act in faith. (It’s a personal relationship–not a church-affiliated relationship.)

Definitely agree with that…but I was told that I personally was not trying hard enough, and praying hard enough that was why my faith in the LDS church was faltering…when that wasn’t the reason…funny how other people always know what we are thinking when they don’t…must be a human condition…

4–I’ve had many prayers “unanswered” in my life. I came to understand as a youth that it wasn’t that I needed to “pray harder”. It was that I first needed to learn how the Holy Ghost does answer prayers, and then I needed to learn that as you noted, some of the things I thought I needed to pray for weren’t the things that were best to have answered at that point in my life. I needed to learn through experience, not through a quick answer from God. (One of the biggest ongoing qualities I see that I continually need to learn is patience, so no answer is often a guide that I need more patience.)

**There’s that word again patience and no answer is patience and wait a bit and also to try and figure it out yourself…after all that’s why God gave us intelligence and free will…in prayer I do ok with being patient…however I am not as patient in the real world we live in…too many things are obvious yet nothing is done about them…then I am impatient…it’s not my strong suit at all… but I do try.

My experiences in the LDS church weren’t the best…especially when we lived in UT, I was differently an outsider and treated as one…it was easier in CA…became much harder when we had children and our basic beliefs clashed horribly…however, I would never say unkind things about my ex…he’s a wonderful person and the kids adore him…and our children together are Catholic, both of them…like I said he’s a super guy just religion got in the way.

I like talking with you Parker…you’ve got it right and you are definitely a kind person.

stormy**

I know a prayer has been answered when I feel a complete calmness and assurance about the matter in question or about the help that was being prayed for–an assurance that stays with me over a period of time and is not just a fleeting moment.

Wishing you all the best, and great peace in your life, Stormy.
 
I agree with you, forgiving can often be the hard part some times.

Definitely agree with that…but I was told that I personally was not trying hard enough, and praying hard enough that was why my faith in the LDS church was faltering…when that wasn’t the reason…funny how other people always know what we are thinking when they don’t…must be a human condition…

There’s that word again patience and no answer is patience and wait a bit and also to try and figure it out yourself…after all that’s why God gave us intelligence and free will…in prayer I do ok with being patient…however I am not as patient in the real world we live in…too many things are obvious yet nothing is done about them…then I am impatient…it’s not my strong suit at all… but I do try.

My experiences in the LDS church weren’t the best…especially when we lived in UT, I was differently an outsider and treated as one…it was easier in CA…became much harder when we had children and our basic beliefs clashed horribly…however, I would never say unkind things about my ex…he’s a wonderful person and the kids adore him…and our children together are Catholic, both of them…like I said he’s a super guy just religion got in the way.

I like talking with you Parker…you’ve got it right and you are definitely a kind person.

stormy
Stormy,
Thank you for your kindness. I am sincerely sorry that you felt like an outsider in Utah–that happens quite a bit, I’m told, and my reaction is that I don’t feel that the gospel is being lived correctly when those are the genuine feelings people have.

I also feel badly about the experience you had when someone said you weren’t praying hard enough or trying hard enough. I think those were not only the wrong things for them to think, but definitely the precisely incorrect thing to say because as you noted that means they were trying to look into your heart and your thoughts, which they couldn’t possibly do.

So, thanks for forgiving them and for evidently having a forgiving attitude toward your ex-husband, and I hope your children are able to feel that forgiving attitude and enjoy the best he has to offer in his relationship with them. That will be awesome!

Thanks again and God bless always.
 
Just my humble opinion and I don’t wish to cause offence to anyone here at all…

I do wish we didn’t feel it necessary to attack/question other religions.For those of us devoutly members of the Catholic faith would it not be polite to respect other peoples faith in their own religions.These people sincerely believe they are right,just as we do.
It would also be pleasant if other religions didn’t feel it necessary to try to teach us their beliefs.
LDS and all other religion members of this forum are here because they know it is a Catholic site.They can learn about our faith through our forums which is wonderful.They think they are right about their religion and we have our own belief and knowledge that the church is directly descended from Jesus himself.
So I just wonder is it really necessary to be questioning other faiths?
Love thy neighbour,and see Jesus in everyone?We are all of one faith just many branches.
Perhaps members of CAF of other religions will see our example of love and respect for all others and be moved to learn more.
Perhaps we do need to discuss other peoples religions, but they were raised to believe in thier own faith just like we did about our faith.So if we are trying to convert people to the Catholic faith perhaps with love and example rather than knocking others beliefs may be the way forward?It just feels like we are gloating and that doesn’t feel right to me.Humility and love would feel the right way for me.
God bless
Defending the Catholic Faith is an attack on Mormonism.

Joseph Smith founded his Church on the premise that Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity, is apostate and false.

We are helping Mormons to find the Truth when we expose the flaws in their faith.

Isn’t this what we are instructed to do in scripture?
 
Defending the Catholic Faith is an attack on Mormonism.

Joseph Smith founded his Church on the premise that Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity, is apostate and false.

We are helping Mormons to find the Truth when we expose the flaws in their faith.

Isn’t this what we are instructed to do in scripture?
In which scripture?

In reality, if you merely “defended the Catholic Faith,” Latter-day Saints would not see that as an attack; we are not that insecure, you see.

The fact that you need to “expose the flaws in their faith” – i.e. go on the offensive – means that you are not confident in the position you are defending.

As to this thread: I’d like to point out that “Mormon Honesty” is hardly a newsworthy topic. Mormons are usually honest; especially about their faith.

Mr Dehlin is in fact a “fringe Mormon.” Actually I called him a “fringe Mormon” because it seemed less judgemental than calling him an apostate. The latter term is value-laden, a bit like “heretic,” whereas “fringe” is relatively objective; all you need to do is compare Mr Dehlin’s views with accepted LDS doctrine to see that he falls well outside the main stream of LDS thought. Well-informed people can see this fact and accept it, even if they wholeheartedly agree with him on every point.

What I’d really like to see, for a change, is some “ex-Mormon honesty.” For example, if some ex-Mormon were to be honest enough to admit that “shunning” is not an LDS practice.

Because this, too, is an objective fact.

Regards,
Pahoran
 
Defending the Catholic Faith is an attack on Mormonism.

Joseph Smith founded his Church on the premise that Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity, is apostate and false.

We are helping Mormons to find the Truth when we expose the flaws in their faith.

Isn’t this what we are instructed to do in scripture?
Chester, please don’t confuse the Great Commission or anything like it to the methods you use. Christ taught us the best way to proclaim the his Gospel is through love. To attack, to belittle, and to besmirch another’s faith, church, or religion is an unprofitable process, it is ineffective, and worse, it is not how Christ taught us to teach the gospel. It is through love that God can be seen. It is through love that He is felt. It is through love that we conquer all things.

We may choose to teach the truth to many, but if they do not know we love them and if they cannot see that Jesus is our Lord, then all is for naught. All we will have achieved is forcing others to be defensive and reject all that we say. The stony land is what we will have created and the harvest will be small.
 
Joseph Smith founded his Church on the premise that Christianity, especially Catholic Christianity, is apostate and false.

Isn’t this what we are instructed to do in scripture?
An important clarification - while LDS believe the Catholic Church is apostate, we DO NOT BELIEVE the Catholic Church is FALSE (False implies there is nothing good or right.)

LDS believe other Christian faiths have part of the message but not the whole message.
In as much as they are teaching the word of God, they are doing good in this world.
 
Chester, please don’t confuse the Great Commission or anything like it to the methods you use. Christ taught us the best way to proclaim the his Gospel is through love. .
So you think he was out of character when he drove the money changers out of the temple?
 
An important clarification - while LDS believe the Catholic Church is apostate, we DO NOT BELIEVE the Catholic Church is FALSE (False implies there is nothing good or right.)

LDS believe other Christian faiths have part of the message but not the whole message.
In as much as they are teaching the word of God, they are doing good in this world.
That is not consistent with this LDS teaching:

“She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, “The whore of all the earth,” making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches… But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain.”
  • Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346
D&C 29:21:
“And the great and abominable church, which is the whore of all the earth, shall be cast down by devouring fire, according as it is spoken by the mouth of Ezekiel the prophet, who spoke of these things, which have not come to pass but surely must, as I live, for abominations shall not reign.”

D&C 88:94:
“And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.”
  1. The Church has a history of identifying the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church.
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.’
  • Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811
“Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their “long robes,” among the Jews, are equally included in their mother’s family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God.”
  • Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939
"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the Lord denounces… as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospel ordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon!
  • Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255
exmormon.org/mormon/mormon327.htm
 
Chester, please don’t confuse the Great Commission or anything like it to the methods you use. Christ taught us the best way to proclaim the his Gospel is through love. To attack, to belittle, and to besmirch another’s faith, church, or religion is an unprofitable process, it is ineffective, and worse, it is not how Christ taught us to teach the gospel. It is through love that God can be seen. It is through love that He is felt. It is through love that we conquer all things.

We may choose to teach the truth to many, but if they do not know we love them and if they cannot see that Jesus is our Lord, then all is for naught. All we will have achieved is forcing others to be defensive and reject all that we say. The stony land is what we will have created and the harvest will be small.
You may or may not have a point. I believe it is important to force Mormons to confront their dogmas.

I’ll play the bad cop for the now. 😃
 
An important clarification - while LDS believe the Catholic Church is apostate, we DO NOT BELIEVE the Catholic Church is FALSE (False implies there is nothing good or right.)

LDS believe other Christian faiths have part of the message but not the whole message.
In as much as they are teaching the word of God, they are doing good in this world.
I have to say, I have an issue with this line of thinking. If something only contains "part of the truth, then it is not true. A part is not whole. If something is apostate to the church that Jesus established, then it is not in line with the Truth, hence it is False.
 
I have to say, I have an issue with this line of thinking. If something only contains "part of the truth, then it is not true. A part is not whole. If something is apostate to the church that Jesus established, then it is not in line with the Truth, hence it is False.
Well, you are right in that LDS does believe LDS is the True Church with the whole message. If you are black an white, without any Grey then your definition of false applies. I personally like a full color spectrum in my analysis.
 
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