Some questions about Mary

[TNT]

bajolyn:

Is this not one of those 1,000’s of sites on the web which you mention? Is this site not called “Catholic Answers”? So are you saying that I shouldn’t be looking for Catholic answers to my questions on a site called “Catholic Answers” and in a forum entitled “Apologetics”? What is this site for, then? If I’m not welcome here as an honest seeker, then what is this site for?

In Christ’s love,
bajolyn

Who said yur not welcome?
I invited you to come back and tell us what these sites say.
The Apologetics part of this site is here. Have you read through it?
If not, why not?
If so, what answers do they provide to your questions?
Let us know what was inadequate.
It makes so much more basic common sense to read extensive organized Apologetic commentary than to drop into a forum thread where commentary is necessarily short, and often incomplete.
Now, I’ve given you 2 sites for starters. Are you going to investigate them or not?
This forum offers testimony of those who have converted AFTER learning on their own search.
We can help you here, AFTER you have helped yourself as best you could.
This forum gets more than its fair share of those who enter with the intent of polemic, based ONLY on prot site information, but Cath site theology completely absent.
Wouldn’t you wonder why??
If you are considering conversion, then say so.
We are the best at that process.

 

[bajolyn]

The problem I have is time.

Here’s why. I’m currently reading the Catechism, Bishop Eusebius’s History of the Church, some writings of the early church fathers, a history of theology, and the Bible. I’m also trying to be a good wife and neighbor, and homeschooling 4 children of some friends of ours. I don’t honestly have time to read everything out there. And, I have found that sometimes someone here can explain something to me in a way that makes sense to me.

Yes, I will read what you’ve referred me to, but it might not be today. Not because I am not willing, but because I must take care of my God-given responsibilities first.

I must tell you in all honesty that the process of considering conversion is hard enough without getting also getting flamed for asking a question about something I don’t understand.

In Christ’s love,
bajolyn

 

[bajolyn]

TNT:

This forum offers testimony of those who have converted AFTER learning on their own search.
We can help you here, AFTER you have helped yourself as best you could.
This forum gets more than its fair share of those who enter with the intent of polemic, based ONLY on prot site information, but Cath site theology completely absent.
Wouldn’t you wonder why??
If you are considering conversion, then say so.
We are the best at that process.

I guess I considered all the reading I’m doing (see my previous post) “helping myself the best I can.” As to whether or not I’m considering conversion, I think that my signature makes it clear that I am. I’m not here to debate. I don’t have time for that. I’m here to learn, but you’re not making me feel too welcome…

 

[TNT]

bajolyn:

The problem I have is time.

Here’s why. I’m currently reading the Catechism, Bishop Eusebius’s History of the Church, some writings of the early church fathers, a history of theology, and the Bible. I’m also trying to be a good wife and neighbor, and homeschooling 4 children of some friends of ours. I don’t honestly have time to read everything out there. And, I have found that sometimes someone here can explain something to me in a way that makes sense to me.

Yes, I will read what you’ve referred me to, but it might not be today. Not because I am not willing, but because I must take care of my God-given responsibilities first.

I must tell you in all honesty that the process of considering conversion is hard enough without getting also getting flamed for asking a question about something I don’t understand.

 In Christ's love,
 bajolyn

Bless you for all the effort.
The sites indicated should take less than 2 hours to absorb.
We look forward to you sharing the search.
From your statement above, you are nearly Catholic.
At least you seem to be a Catholic Mom.
Being Catholic has the essential quality of demanding the truth and loving it without reservation as to where it may take you.
Our Lord came to us, by His infallible plan, through MARY. Would He ever object to any of us coming to Him by the same route that He Himself determined was the very best ?

 

[bajolyn]

TNT:

Bless you for all the effort.
The sites indicated should take less than 2 hours to absorb.
We look forward to you sharing the search.
From your statement above, you are nearly Catholic.
At least you seem to be a Catholic Mom.
Being Catholic has the essential quality of demanding the truth and loving it without reservation as to where it may take you.

Thank you for your blessing and for the information links.

PS: I would add to what you said about demanding truth and loving it without reservation the following - taken from the prologue to the Catechism:

“The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Chrsitian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love.” (CCC 25)

By the way, you said I seem to be a Catholic mom. My husband and I have not been blessed with any children. The children I am homeschooling are those of a friend.

I’m expected at an event shortly, so I won’t be around for awhile to continue this discussion. I just wanted you to know that if you reply and I don’t answer, I am not ignoring you.

In Christ’s love,
bajolyn

 

[bajolyn]

bajolyn:

Thank you for your blessing and for the information links.

PS: I would add to what you said about demanding truth and loving it without reservation the following - taken from the prologue to the Catechism:

“The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Chrsitian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love.” (CCC 25)

PS #2: Though my husband and I wish it were otherwise, I am not a mother. The children I am homeschooling are those of a friend.

I’m expected at an event shortly, so I won’t be around for awhile to continue this discussion. I just wanted you to know that if you reply and I don’t answer, I am not ignoring you.

In Christ’s love,
bajolyn

 

[TNT]

bajolyn:

Thank you for your blessing and for the information links.

PS: I would add to what you said about demanding truth and loving it without reservation the following - taken from the prologue to the Catechism:

“The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Chrsitian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love.” (CCC 25)

I’m expected at an event shortly, so I won’t be around for awhile to continue this discussion. I just wanted you to know that if you reply and I don’t answer, I am not ignoring you.

In Christ’s love,
bajolyn

Take this with you:

Our Lord came to us, by His infallible plan, through MARY. Would He ever object to any of us coming to Him by the same route that He Himself determined was the very best ?

Maybe that is the reason it is normally the LAST door thru which a non-catholic enters the door of the Church. Is it the Door that He wants us to use in finality: "Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye."

 

[TNT]

I understand that in giving her assent to Jesus’ conception, Mary was a perfect illustration of obedience to the Father, however, the point the Jesus seems to me to be making is that we should not consider Mary as being above others, but rather one of many who glorify the Father by her obedience. Why does the Catholic Church venerate Mary to the point of elevating her above all of the apostles and all other saints who have ever lived?

John 1:1-5 :

And the third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee: and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

*Did she take no, for His final answer? Did she get Jesus to change His mind? Was this a “prayer” by those in need THROUGH Mary? If so, why? What is the Lesson of Scripture?
*

 

[Genesis315]

Luke 11:27-28 (NIV)
27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” 28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

I think even this translation is fine, because Mary is blessed primarily because she heard the word of God and obeyed it, not just because she bore Jesus and nursed him. The birth and nursing were a result of her obedience. She is the most blessed becuase she heard and obeyed better than anyone ever. It also says that we can be blessed too. Not all of us can bear and nurse Jesus (especially us guys!), but we can all hear the word of God and obey it.

 

[serendipity]

TNT:

So, are you saying that on all the 1,000’s of sites on the internet, you could NOT find adequate answers???
Please.

That is a nasty thing to say. It may be some one who is here to bait people. But at the same time, when I have questions about things I don’t have the time to research personally, or topics that have volumes to wade through, I prefer to ask some one a question. It helps me learn where the begin to sift through the material, or if it is even worth the sifting.

A few days ago people were annoyed that they learned of a dialogue on the Baptist board that virulently attacked and twisted catholic belief, but would not allow any Catholic to present their view. Is this board then to behave the same?

 

[oudave]

TNT:

Who said yur not welcome?
I invited you to come back and tell us what these sites say.
The Apologetics part of this site is here. Have you read through it?
If not, why not?
If so, what answers do they provide to your questions?
Let us know what was inadequate.
It makes so much more basic common sense to read extensive organized Apologetic commentary than to drop into a forum thread where commentary is necessarily short, and often incomplete.
Now, I’ve given you 2 sites for starters. Are you going to investigate them or not?
This forum offers testimony of those who have converted AFTER learning on their own search.
We can help you here, AFTER you have helped yourself as best you could.
This forum gets more than its fair share of those who enter with the intent of polemic, based ONLY on prot site information, but Cath site theology completely absent.
Wouldn’t you wonder why??
If you are considering conversion, then say so.
We are the best at that process.

Hey TNT
*When someone comes in here and ask’s a question about your religon try and NOT be so HATEFUl. *
Dave.

 

[TNT]

bajolyn:

I have a couple of honest questions about Mary which I’m hoping someone can help me with:

1. It seems to me that if Mary was immaculately conceived and lived a sinless life, then for her, anyway, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross would have been unnecessary for her salvation. If God wanted to simply create a new and sinless humanity apart from Christ ( here comes the error) >(as He is said to have done in Mary), then why would He choose the painful and torturous road of the cross to effect our salvation?

…

4 Kings 2:11 And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind **into heaven

**So, did Elias need Christ, the Passion, or not?
Was he simply saved by a chariot, or in anticipation of the future Christ and His Passion?
What is the substantial difference if:

1. I give you a gift, THEN pay for it afterward when the bill is sent to me some time later.
   OR
2. Pay for the gift first and then give it to you afterward?

Was Elias the beneficiary via #1 or #2 or neither ?

.

 

[TNT]

bajolyn:

I have a couple of honest questions about Mary which I’m hoping someone can help me with:

1. It seems to me that if Mary was immaculately conceived and lived a sinless life, then for her, anyway, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross would have been unnecessary for her salvation. If God wanted to simply create a new and sinless humanity (here comes error#1)> apart from Christ ( here comes error #2) >>(as He is said to have done in Mary), then why would He choose the painful and torturous road of the cross to effect our salvation?

…

4 Kings 2:11 And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind **into heaven

**So, did Elias need Christ, the Passion, or not?
Was he simply saved by a chariot, or in anticipation of the future Christ and His Passion?
What is the substantial difference if:

1. I give you a gift, THEN pay for it afterward when the bill is sent to me some time later.
   OR
2. Pay for the gift first and then give it to you afterward?

Was Elias the beneficiary via #1 or #2 or neither ?

.

 

[TNT]

Hey TNT
*When someone comes in here and ask’s a question about your religon try and NOT be so HATEFUl. *
Dave.

You really mean, “Why are you asking me questions I can’t logically answer?” OUDAVE!
You’re the one who refuses to answer my questions on this forum.
I’ll repeat it here and you can PM me with the answer so the thread is not hijacked.
**1. How do you prove infallibly that Hebrews belongs in your scriptures?
2. By what infallible authority are there 27 books in your scripture NT, no more and no less. Where is it stated in yur scriptures only that there are to be only 27?
If you go outside of your scriptures, you failed to answer, and bringing in the “traditions of men”.

**

 

[TNT]

bajolyn:

Thank you for your blessing and for the information links.

By the way, you said I seem to be a Catholic mom. My husband and I have not been blessed with any children. The children I am homeschooling are those of a friend.

…In Christ’s love,
bajolyn

So, as I see it now, you are being a Mom in a certain respect? ie Teaching the children of your friend which is a Mom’s role, without usurping the friend’s place as the Mom who is their ultimate teacher.

May I say Mary has a similar role…teaching the children of her Lord, yet like you, not replacing the Lord who is the ultimate Teacher.
Looking forward to more of your blessings.

 

[rom323]

Mary was not sinless because everyone who ever walked the face of the earth (except Jesus) is a sinner. Mary was a humble servant of God who was blessed (favored) to bring forth the Messiah. She was a disciple who sometimes got it right and sometimes got it wrong. She is to be given the same honor as any true follower of Christ. She is blessed ***among ***women, not ***above ***women!

 

[jimmy]

bajolyn:

I have a couple of honest questions about Mary which I’m hoping someone can help me with:

1. It seems to me that if Mary was immaculately conceived and lived a sinless life, then for her, anyway, the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross would have been unnecessary for her salvation. If God wanted to simply create a new and sinless humanity apart from Christ (as He is said to have done in Mary), then why would He choose the painful and torturous road of the cross to effect our salvation?

Mary was immaculate in everyway. The teaching of the Catholic Church is that Mary at the time of conception recieved an abundance of Grace from God that kept her free from sin.

Another Catholic teaching is that all grace is recieved through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. That includes those who recieved it previous to the crucifixion. Abraham and Moses recieved Grace from Christ. The only difference between Mary and everyone else is that Mary recieved this Grace at conception to protect her soul from the stain of sin.

bajolyn:

1. In the gospels, there are two accounts where it seems that people were attempting to venerate Mary. In both instances, Jesus seeks to change their understanding - it is not the physical relationship to Jesus that makes one blessed, but rather obedience to the will of the Father. Here are the two passages to which I am referring:

Luke 11:27-28 (NIV)
27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.” 28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Matthew 12:47-50 (NASB95)
47 Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” 48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 “For whoeverdoes the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

I understand that in giving her assent to Jesus’ conception, Mary was a perfect illustration of obedience to the Father, however, the point the Jesus seems to me to be making is that we should not consider Mary as being above others, but rather one of many who glorify the Father by her obedience. Why does the Catholic Church venerate Mary to the point of elevating her above all of the apostles and all other saints who have ever lived?

As a seeking protestant, I would have to say that these are fairly big questions for me. Can anyone help?

Jesus in these passages is merely saying that Mary is not blessed simply because she is his earthly mother. The woman was claiming that Mary was blessed because she was Jesus’ mother. He is saying that those who do his will are blessed. Mary has done the will of Christ better than anyone ever in the history of the world. So, she is more blessed than all other humans(other than Christ of course).

 

[jimmy]

bajolyn:

The problem I have is time.

Here’s why. I’m currently reading the Catechism, Bishop Eusebius’s History of the Church, some writings of the early church fathers, a history of theology, and the Bible. I’m also trying to be a good wife and neighbor, and homeschooling 4 children of some friends of ours. I don’t honestly have time to read everything out there. And, I have found that sometimes someone here can explain something to me in a way that makes sense to me.

Yes, I will read what you’ve referred me to, but it might not be today. Not because I am not willing, but because I must take care of my God-given responsibilities first.

I must tell you in all honesty that the process of considering conversion is hard enough without getting also getting flamed for asking a question about something I don’t understand.

In Christ’s love,
bajolyn

Wow!!! You are a busy woman. Please don’t take offense by some peoples responses, we are glad to have you here. And you are very welcome to be here.

If you have anymore questions, be free to ask them because they will be answered.

 

[jimmy]

bajolyn:

I guess I considered all the reading I’m doing (see my previous post) “helping myself the best I can.” As to whether or not I’m considering conversion, I think that my signature makes it clear that I am. I’m not here to debate. I don’t have time for that. I’m here to learn, but you’re not making me feel too welcome…

We will be gentle as the breaze. You are always welcome to be here.

 

[Mary3]

rom323:

She was a disciple who sometimes got it right and sometimes got it wrong.

An example of her ‘getting it wrong’, please?