Some questions about Mary

[jimmy]

rom323:

Mary was not sinless because everyone who ever walked the face of the earth (except Jesus) is a sinner. Mary was a humble servant of God who was blessed (favored) to bring forth the Messiah. She was a disciple who sometimes got it right and sometimes got it wrong. She is to be given the same honor as any true follower of Christ. She is blessed ***among ***women, not ***above ***women!

You, like oudave has done, are making an exception to an absolute that you are making. When it says all have sinned it does not say except Jesus. If you read this verse as meaning every single person from the dawn of time, then you must include Jesus. The statement in Romans is not supposed to be an all inclusive statement that says every single person since the dawn of time has sinned. The purpose of the statement is in context of the self rioghteous.

Blessed among women means that she is more blessed than the other women. It does not mean she is blessed like other women. She is the most blessed woman ever to walk the earth.

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

Mary was not sinless because everyone who ever walked the face of the earth (except Jesus) is a sinner. Mary was a humble servant of God who was blessed (favored) to bring forth the Messiah. She was a disciple who sometimes got it right and sometimes got it wrong. She is to be given the same honor as any true follower of Christ. She is blessed ***among ***women, not ***above ***women!

You are going to have to point out when she got it wrong.

 

[rom323]

Mary3:

An example of her ‘getting it wrong’, please?

Let’s see, In Mark 3:21 Jesus’ family went to take charge of him because they think he is out of his mind! Then in verse 31 we see that Jesus’ family, which includes Mary, arrives to take charge of him! In verse 33 the crowd notifies Jesus that his mother and brothers are outside looking for him. Jesus asks, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” Then he looks at those seated around him and says, **“Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” **Here Jesus seems to be rejecting his biological family (Mary included) in favor of his spiritual family. At this point in time, Mary was not yet a true believer!

I would suggest that in this instance, Mary got it wrong! :yup:

 

[rom323]

jimmy:

You, like oudave has done, are making an exception to an absolute that you are making. When it says all have sinned it does not say except Jesus. If you read this verse as meaning every single person from the dawn of time, then you must include Jesus. The statement in Romans is not supposed to be an all inclusive statement that says every single person since the dawn of time has sinned. The purpose of the statement is in context of the self rioghteous.

Blessed among women means that she is more blessed than the other women. It does not mean she is blessed like other women. She is the most blessed woman ever to walk the earth.

My dear friend, you propose an absuridty! Jesus is not included because He is God, and if you have read Scripture you know that it is impossible for God to sin. It goes against His nature!

Judges 5:24 states, **“Most blessed of women be Jael.” **Maybe there are two women who are the most blessed to walk the earth!

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

My dear friend, you propose an absuridty! Jesus is not included because He is God, and if you have read Scripture you know that it is impossible for God to sin. It goes against His nature!

Judges 5:24 states, **“Most blessed of women be Jael.” **Maybe there are two women who are the most blessed to walk the earth!

The passage you are quoting from does not make that destinction that Jesus is God therefore he could not have sinned. The passage is not meant to mean what the protestants interpret it to mean. It is speaking about self righteous people and he is saying that they have all sinned.

Jael was blessed among women also, but that was in her generation. All generations shall call Mary blessed. That is quite a big difference. That is not said about Jael, or any other woman but Mary.

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

Let’s see, In Mark 3:21 Jesus’ family went to take charge of him because they think he is out of his mind! Then in verse 31 we see that Jesus’ family, which includes Mary, arrives to take charge of him! In verse 33 the crowd notifies Jesus that his mother and brothers are outside looking for him. Jesus asks, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” Then he looks at those seated around him and says, **“Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” **Here Jesus seems to be rejecting his biological family (Mary included) in favor of his spiritual family. At this point in time, Mary was not yet a true believer!

I would suggest that in this instance, Mary got it wrong! :yup:

How did she get it wrong. That passage says nothing about Mary getting anything wrong. Jesus is just saying that those who do Gods will are his family. That is true, but the thing is that Mary did Gods will more than anyone else on the planet.

 

[Axion]

rom323:

Let’s see, In Mark 3:21 Jesus’ family went to take charge of him because they think he is out of his mind! Then in verse 31 we see that Jesus’ family, which includes Mary, arrives to take charge of him! In verse 33 the crowd notifies Jesus that his mother and brothers are outside looking for him. Jesus asks, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” Then he looks at those seated around him and says, **“Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.” **Here Jesus seems to be rejecting his biological family (Mary included) in favor of his spiritual family. At this point in time, Mary was not yet a true believer!

I would suggest that in this instance, Mary got it wrong! :yup:

1. No. You are badly misreading scripture here. The incident in Mark 3.21 has nothing to do with the arrioval of Mary in Mark 3.31. They are separate incidents, and Mary is not listed in v21 as among those members of “Jesus family” who “think he is out of His mind.” We can see this because the incidents are not linked in Matthew or Luke, and appear in completely different orders in the other gospels.

If the incidents were linked as you claim, they would appear linked in each gospel.

1. By saying “I adopt you into my family if…”, which is what Jesus is saying in the 2nd passage. Does that really also mean “I therefore deny my existing family?” as you seem to claim?

 

[rom323]

jimmy:

The passage you are quoting from does not make that destinction that Jesus is God therefore he could not have sinned. The passage is not meant to mean what the protestants interpret it to mean. It is speaking about self righteous people and he is saying that they have all sinned.

The only exception ,of being sinless, given in Scripture is Jesus! Mary was a sinner who needed a Savior just like all of humanity. Jesus alone is sinless and any attempt to exhault another in this manner is idolatry!

Jael was blessed among women also, but that was in her generation. All generations shall call Mary blessed. That is quite a big difference. That is not said about Jael, or any other woman but Mary.

Mary was blessed because God chose her to bring forth the Messiah. She has no status above anyone else who does God’s will!

 

[rom323]

jimmy:

How did she get it wrong. That passage says nothing about Mary getting anything wrong. Jesus is just saying that those who do Gods will are his family. That is true, but the thing is that Mary did Gods will more than anyone else on the planet.

I’m sorry to inform you that Mary did get it wrong! She went to take charge of Jesus because she thought that He was out of His mind!

In Luke 2:48-50 Mary gets it wrong again. Jesus states that He must be about His Fathers business but Mary doesn’t understand what He was saying!

In Luke 1:47 Mary proclaims her Savior! If she was sinless, why did she need a Savior?

 

[rom323]

1. No. You are badly misreading scripture here. The incident in Mark 3.21 has nothing to do with the arrioval of Mary in Mark 3.31. They are separate incidents, and Mary is not listed in v21 as among those members of “Jesus family” who “think he is out of His mind.” We can see this because the incidents are not linked in Matthew or Luke, and appear in completely different orders in the other gospels.

Actually you are displaying intellectual dishonesty when you say verse 21 has nothing to do with verse 31. The fact is they are the same event. In verse 21 the family of Jesus (which includes Mary) goes to take charge of him because they say he is out of his mind. In verse 31 they arrive and when Jesus is told by the crowd that his mother and brothers are outside looking for him, he states, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” He then looks at those around him and says, **“Behold my mother and brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.” **He distances himself from his biological family and embraces his spiritual family!

If the incidents were linked as you claim, they would appear linked in each gospel.

1. By saying “I adopt you into my family if…”, which is what Jesus is saying in the 2nd passage. Does that really also mean “I therefore deny my existing family?” as you seem to claim?

Why is it that in the Gospels, Jesus never calls Mary mother???
The reason is, he was severing any and all biological ties with Mary and his brothers and sisters. His status as Lord eclipsed biology. Mary was a mere creature used by God to accomplish His purpose. She has no status above any other person God has used in similar ways. He is the Creator of the Universe, Mary is a mere speck of dust. In calling Mary such things as Mother of God, Co-Redemptrix, Mediator, Advocate etc.you rob God of His glory. No one ever created even comes close to Almighty God!!! Not Mary, not the “Saints,” NO ONE!!!

"Who are my mother and my brothers?" He then looks at those around him and says, **“Behold my mother and brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.” **He distances himself from his biological family and embraces his spiritual family!

 

[rom323]

The problem I’ve found with Catholics regarding Mary is that they have elevated her up to a status she does not deserve. She is not divine, yet she is made to be another Christ! It goes like this, Jesus is sinless, so Mary must be sinless–Jesus is our Redeemer, so Mary must be Co-Redeemer–Jesus is our Mediator, so Mary must be Mediatrix–Jesus ascended to heaven, so Mary must have been assumed into heaven. At every turn Mary parallels Christ. None of this is Scriptural! Instead of calling her Mother of God you might has well start calling her God the Mother!!!

Mary was a sinner who needed a Savior like all the rest of humanity! She cannot hear prayers nor can she answer them. She was blessed to bring forth the promised Messiah but she is not above anyone else God has used. She has no biological ties to God because she was a mere creature as we all are. She was saved in the same way we all are saved, by God’s grace, through faith, in CHRIST ALONE!!!

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

I’m sorry to inform you that Mary did get it wrong! She went to take charge of Jesus because she thought that He was out of His mind!

In Luke 2:48-50 Mary gets it wrong again. Jesus states that He must be about His Fathers business but Mary doesn’t understand what He was saying!

In Luke 1:47 Mary proclaims her Savior! If she was sinless, why did she need a Savior?

You are adding to the scripture. No where does it say that Mary tryed to stop Jesus because she thought him out of his mind. That is your own addition to the text. You are speaking of Mark 3;21, correct? That verse mentions nothing about Mary. It doesn’t even mention she was even present. This is the verse from the KJV.

And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

here is the American Standard Version

And when his friends heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.

New American Standard

When His R103 own people F45 heard {of} {this,} they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.”

The Douay-Rheims

And when his friends had heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him. For they said: He is become mad.

As you can see in all of these above translations that it doesn’t say that Mary was there. It doesn’t even say his family was there. What it says is that his friends thought him mad.

What did she get wrong in Luke 2 ? Are you saying she sinned or that she does not know everything? Of course she does not know everything, no Catholic would say that she knows everything. She did not know the whole plan of Christ. You point out that she was worried when she could not find her son? What is the point.

Luke 1;47 All the Grace of God is given to man through Christ Jesus and his sacrifice, even those who got Grace before the sacrifice. The teaching about Mary is that she was filled with Grace by God at the moment of conception that her soul might be preserved from Original Sin. Mary accepted this Grace, unlike everyone else, and she did not sin and go against God. This Grace was given through the sacrifice of the cross. Now can you see how Mary was saved by Christ. It was through his sacrifice that she recieved the grace.

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

Mary was blessed because God chose her to bring forth the Messiah. She has no status above anyone else who does God’s will!

She was blessed for a couple reasons. The first is because she was filled with Grace by God at the moment of conception.

Second becuase she is the mother of God.

Both of these give her higher status than the rest of creation. To degrade Mary, you only degrade God because you assume that God was not good enough to create someone who could do his will.

 

[Lorarose]

The problem I’ve found with Catholics regarding Mary is that they have elevated her up to a status she does not deserve

Who are you to judge what she “deserves” or does not deserve?
This is the mother of our Messiah.
She is the mother of the King of Kings.
She is the Queen Mother according to the tradition of davidic kings.

What mother in the existence of mothers has ever been so honored to be blessed with such fruit of the womb?

She is not divine, yet she is made to be another Christ!

Catholics DO NOT consider Mary to be divine!
How many times do we need to explain that before anti-catholics will actually listen?
Catholics DO NOT make her to be another Christ!! How many times must we go over this old tired accusation?

It goes like this, Jesus is sinless, so Mary must be sinless–Jesus is our Redeemer, so Mary must be Co-Redeemer–Jesus is our Mediator, so Mary must be Mediatrix–Jesus ascended to heaven, so Mary must have been assumed into heaven. At every turn Mary parallels Christ. None of this is Scriptural! Instead of calling her Mother of God you might has well start calling her God the Mother!!!

It “goes like this”? Really?
According to you?
This is your spin as seen through glasses filled with suspicion.
The titles you mention have been dicussed over and over on many threads here.
It is amazing to me that after the hundreds of posts on this subject - that people continue to post the exact same questions as if no catholics have already answered this a gazillion times!

Mary was a sinner who needed a Savior like all the rest of humanity!

According to Gabriel Mary was “full of grace”
But yes…catholics will wholeheartedly agree that Mary needed a savior.
Mary confirmed that God was her savior in her magnificat.
Catholics simply believe Jesus applied his grace to her in a different manner than He did with the rest of us.
After all…she IS His mother!

She cannot hear prayers nor can she answer them.

Oh really? Evidence please?

She was blessed to bring forth the promised Messiah but she is not above anyone else God has used. She has no biological ties to God because she was a mere

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by not being “above anyone else God has used”
God has a plan for every human being doesn’t He?
Some people allow God to work through them better than others.
I don’t know how you could say something like “She was blessed to bring forth the promised Messiah…” without being filled with awe and wonder.
Can you imagine what that was like? To carry I AM within your body? To give birth to the God of Abraham and Isaac?
To hold Him in your arms, nurse Him, and share daily life with the Creator of the universe?
I am puzzled by the cavalier attitude some folks have towards the Queen Mother of the Messiah!

She has no biological ties to God because she was a mere creature as we all are.

NO BIOLOGICAL TIES TO GOD??
Who else was “overshadowed” by the Holy Spirit to conceive the Divine Son of God?
Yes…she is a creature like all of us - no catholic will tell you she is not a created being.

She was saved in the same way we all are saved, by God’s grace, through faith, in CHRIST ALONE!!!

Mary was saved by God’s grace, through the merits of her Divine Son’s sacrifice.

 

[gladtobe]

Nowhere does it say Mary was filled with the grace of God at conception. Rather the angel greeted Mary when she was a young woman and THEN said Hail full of grace. The text in other bible translations such as the NIV, RSV, NAB says Mary was “highly favored” of God. Or that she found great favor with him.So the angel was telling Mary in literal words, “Hail, for you are greatly favored before God.” Nothing is said or even implied that Mary was imparted with sinlessness at birth in this particular scripture.

 

[trevor]

I don’t think I want to get into this whole debate. I will ask you one thing. Do you love your mother? Of course you do. When people say something bad about your mother, does it make you angry and hurt you. Of course it does. How do you think Jesus is going to feel about people who do not respect His mother?

Forget that Mary agreed to have Jesus in order to save us if you have to (I don’t recommend that), but please, for your own sake, hold Mary in the highest esteem. I believe the last person you want mad at you is Jesus.

Peace,
Trevor

 

[Lorarose]

Nowhere does it say Mary was filled with the grace of God at conception. Rather the angel greeted Mary when she was a young woman and THEN said Hail full of grace. The text in other bible translations such as the NIV, RSV, NAB says Mary was “highly favored” of God. Or that she found great favor with him.So the angel was telling Mary in literal words, “Hail, for you are greatly favored before God.” Nothing is said or even implied that Mary was imparted with sinlessness at birth in this particular scripture.

This has been discussed many times on this board.
Do a search.
Learn what the term was that Gabriel used.
Find out what form (what tense) of this word was used - and why that is important.

 

[MaggieOH]

gladtobe:

Nowhere does it say Mary was filled with the grace of God at conception. Rather the angel greeted Mary when she was a young woman and THEN said Hail full of grace. The text in other bible translations such as the NIV, RSV, NAB says Mary was “highly favored” of God. Or that she found great favor with him.So the angel was telling Mary in literal words, “Hail, for you are greatly favored before God.” Nothing is said or even implied that Mary was imparted with sinlessness at birth in this particular scripture.

Gladtobe,

English translations are not all that accurate. The RSVCE does in fact say “Hail, Full of Grace”, since that is a title. The Highly favoured is a watering down of the meaning of the Greek word. I can see how this watering down of the exact word can distort the meaning of the greeting.

Gabriel was conferring on Mary a title, “full of grace”. She is given that title because of the graces that were conferred upon her from the beginning, in preparation of her role to be the Mother of the Messiah.

There are other Biblical passages that also relate to a prophesy about who the Woman will be. We know that the Woman is Mary. Now whilst you will dispute Genesis 3:14-15, you do need to keep in mind that God addressed these words to Satan, and he was not referring to Eve when he said them. Thus when God says to Satan: “I will make enemies of you and the woman” He was not talking about Eve because Eve had already befriended Satan, and the Woman is to remain an enemy.

The question should be, what did God mean by the statement? It means that the Woman who is to come, and her Seed (the Messiah) will be enemies of Satan and they will crush Satan. The Woman therefore had to be someone who had been granted grace by God (highly favoured) from the moment of her conception so that she would never desire to give into temptation and that she would desire only God.

There other verses that are a type, and they also point to Mary as being pure. For example the Ark of the Covenant was to be made with pure materials. Nothing impure could touch the Ark of the Covenant, for fear of being fried on the spot. It is the same with Mary. God would not enter an impure vessel that had been tainted in any way by sin.

Hence, when we speak of Mary as Full of Grace we also recognize that she is highly favoured by God because of the role that she was being prepared to undertake.

Mary’s salvation was granted to her prior to the coming of the Messiah because she was to be the vessel through which He was to come into the world, thus completing God’s plan of salvation.

MaggieOH

 

[gladtobe]

**Five major bible translations can’t be wrong

**Luke 1:28

28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

NIV

Luke 1:28

28 And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord (is) with thee.

ASV

Luke 1:27-29

28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

NRSV

Luke 1:27-28

28 The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”

TEV

Luke 1:28

28 Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!”

NLT

 

[Lorarose]

Yes they can. But don’t take our word for it!
Research it!
Find the term Gabriel used and study it!