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rom323
Guest
Mary was highly favored to bring forth the Messiah. The Scriptures say nothing about her being “filled with grace.” Why is it that you believe that Mary must be just like Jesus? Let me clue you in, she isn’t!
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rom323
Guest
I am not degrading Mary! I truly believe that if God has allowed her to know what is being said about her by Catholics, it would break her heart! She was a humble servant of God whom He used to bring forth the Messiah. She is not on the same level as He, yet you continue to give her the honor that belongs to God alone!
God has used many different people to do His will.
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rom323
Guest
Of course I love my mother! But I do not bow down to statues of her or pray to her!
What am I saying that is bad about her? Is it that I do not believe that she was sinless nor a perpetual virgin,Co-Redeemer, Mediatrix?
Please show me in Scripture where Jesus gives Mary the honor that you do? You cannot because He did not!
Why is it that He never calls Mary mother?
Why when Jesus is told by the crowd that his mother and brothers are outside looking for him, he states, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” And then when He looks at those around him says, **“Behold my mother and brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.” **
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rom323
Guest
Grace is the unmerited favor of God so what’s your point?
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rom323
Guest
Just a question, how does Genesis 3:15 read in the Douay-Rheims?
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jimmy
Guest
*Do you know what the verse in Luke 1;28 actually says? In this verse the angel adresses her as “Full of Grace”. It is in the vocative case which means that it is like a name. Like I call you rom323, the angel called Mary “Full of Grace”. “All generations shall call me blessed”, that is very biblical but you do not accept it. *
Second, the scriptures are a product of the Church, not the other way around. The Church is not subject to the scriptures and in fact the scriptures say to follow all traditions whether by word of mouth or by epistle(2Thes.2). It also says that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth(1Tim3). It was the Church that wrote the bible and it is the Church that decided what books would go into the bible. In fact the bible was never an actual thing until the begining of the 4th century.
You protestants have a doctrine of sola scriptura that is a doctrine of men. You will not find the teaching anywhere in scripture. In fact the great protestant apologist James White admits to this. Watch it if you can figure out the password.
*bringyou.to/apolonio/truth.htm
*If you reject this then you also reject the incarnation of God as man. You reject that Jesus is God. You are a heretic that would be called Arian. Mary is called “The Mother of my Lord” by Elizabeth. Read the scriptures. It looks like you reject the teachings. I advise you to read the council of Ephesis from 434 AD.
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I am not degrading Mary! I truly believe that if God has allowed her to know what is being said about her by Catholics, it would break her heart! She was a humble servant of God whom He used to bring forth the Messiah. She is not on the same level as He, yet you continue to give her the honor that belongs to God alone!
God has used many different people to do His will. *
She was a very humble woman, and it was God that made her like that. What you have said is your protestant indoctination and it is completely extrabiblical.
Have you read one post from this entire forum? This has been addressed several times. No one is putting Mary on the level of Christ. We are not giving her any honor that is not due to her. We give honor that is appropriate to Mary to her and we worship God.
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Lorarose
Guest
I’m not sure if some people don’t actually read the hundreds of posts on this subject - or that they simply DON’T CARE what a catholic’s response will be.
Clearly some people just want to have a one-sided conversation and ignore any evidence that does not support their position.
How many times do we have to read…
“you catholics think Mary is divine and equal to Jesus”
“ummm…no we do not think that about Mary”
“yes you do”
Why bother having this conversation over and over?
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mayra_hart
Guest
AMEN TO THAT LORAROSE
It is truly proper to glorify you who have borne God;
the Ever-Blessed and Immaculate Mother of our God.
More honorable than the Cherubim
and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who a virgin gave birth to God the Word.
You, truly the Mother of God, we magnify!
It is truly proper to glorify you who have borne God;the Ever-Blessed and Immaculate Mother of our God.
More honorable than the Cherubim
and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who a virgin gave birth to God the Word.
You, truly the Mother of God, we magnify!
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jimmy
Guest
You have found one version of the bible that supports your claim, the NIV. The NASV does not suppot your claim. TO say his own people does not mean his family and it does not mean mother either.
Further more, in the latin from the vulgate.
drbo.org/lvb.htm
Sui is the term that refers to his people. It does not translate to mean family. Sui translates as his people or his men. To make it his family is a corruption of the text. So your statement is false. Look at all the versions of the bible that translate it correctly. I gave some of them in the post you quoted.
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*And you honestly think it is a sin to not understand something? Then I would say every non-Catholic is sinning just on the fact that they have no idea what the Church says.
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Mary was highly favored to bring forth the Messiah. The Scriptures say nothing about her being “filled with grace.” Why is it that you believe that Mary must be just like Jesus? Let me clue you in, she isn’t! *
Yes it does, when the angel greats Mary with the perfect passive participle in the vocative case, kecaritwmenh, which means exactly “hail who has been much graced”, he specifically is saying she has been filled with grace. Jerome translated this into latin in the 4th century as gratia plena which means “full of Grace”.
Who says we are trying to make Mary like Christ? You need to get a new source of information if that is what they are telling you. No Catholic would ever try to put Mary on the level of Christ, in any way. What we do is we recognize what she has done as a human and that she was the only human ever to completely accept the teachings of Christ. This has been the teaching of the Church since the first century and it will always be the teaching.
Did you not read my post? I explained to you that Mary needed the sacrifice of Christ just like anyone else on the planet and I explained it to you how she recieved the salvation of the cross. She recieved it in anticipation of the sacrifice. And it came from Christ.
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jimmy
Guest
Your version of the KJV is not the KJV. This is what the KJV says
F9 heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. * *
NKJV
heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.” *
Douay Rheims
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had heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him. For they said: He is become mad. *
New American Standard
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R103 own people F45 heard {of} {this,} they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.”
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American Standard
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heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
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To say that his mother did this is to add to the text.
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jimmy
Guest
Hey Lorarose,
I get sick of it too. Its like they are talking to themselves almost. They don’t address what you say.
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jimmy
Guest
mayra hart:
From the Byzantine Liturgy. I have been there many times, it is beautiful.AMEN TO THAT LORAROSE
the Ever-Blessed and Immaculate Mother of our God.
More honorable than the Cherubim
and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim,
Who a virgin gave birth to God the Word.
You, truly the Mother of God, we magnify!
L
Lorarose
Guest
Maybe this sounds harsh but…
I’m really starting to believe that the ones who continue to ask the EXACT SAME QUESTIONS over and over without acknowledging the vast number of valid responses…
I think they WANT to believe these things about catholics.
I think they LIKE to believe these things about catholics, and they aren’t going to allow facts to get in the way of that.
They feel superior, they are in a comfortable place, and it is unthinkable to them they might possibly be wrong about us goddess/idol worshippers.
Have you noticed how NONE of them respond to valid points made concerning the role of queen mother in the old testament?
If they truly wanted to have honest discussion - why don’t they address issues like this?
They simply pretend the issue was never brought up.
I’m really starting to believe that the ones who continue to ask the EXACT SAME QUESTIONS over and over without acknowledging the vast number of valid responses…
I think they WANT to believe these things about catholics.
I think they LIKE to believe these things about catholics, and they aren’t going to allow facts to get in the way of that.
They feel superior, they are in a comfortable place, and it is unthinkable to them they might possibly be wrong about us goddess/idol worshippers.
Have you noticed how NONE of them respond to valid points made concerning the role of queen mother in the old testament?
If they truly wanted to have honest discussion - why don’t they address issues like this?
They simply pretend the issue was never brought up.
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jimmy
Guest
Exactly, I agree 100%.
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adstrinity
Guest
:crying::crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:
rom323, I suggest you read this entire thread. It answered some of your questions before you posted.
I cry for you and what you said degrading the Greatest Woman ever created. There is no way I can explain to you how truly insulting it is to call the Handmaiden of the Lord, the Woman, GOD PERSONALLY CHOSE to bare His Son at the moment of the Fall in Genesis to an insignificant piece of dirt who Jesus slagged throughout His ministry and who hasn’t helped Him or His followers for the past 2000 years.
I hope you don’t think me to blow a trumpet in the synagogue here, but, I…I’ve been putting this off for a while now, but, tonight, I believe God truly wants me to. Before I go to bed tonight, I shall say a Rosary for you, that your eyes will be opened & you will come to know and love God, His Son, and His Church.
God Bless You & Mary Keep You.
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john_doran
Guest
gladtobe said:
i’m afraid they can.
the greek word used in the passage - from which all of these translations were made - is kecaritomene, or kecharitomene.
the root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace” (used in the NT only of the root noun charis, which means “grace”, and then only of divine charis).
the prefix ke ke] and the suffix mene mene] together make the word used by gabriel a perfect passive participle.
what ***that ***means is:
- kecharitomene is used as a name, in the sense that using a common word as a name indicates superlative possession by the one so named of the property used as the name - like calling mary “miss grace” to indicate her special possession of grace in the way that we would call someone like wayne gretzky “mr. hockey”; and
- it indicates an action that has been done to mary, and which has been completed or perfected with a permanent result.
here’s a couple of quotes for you :
“It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).
“Luke 1:28…kecharitomene is a quite rare Hellenistic verb (only found elsewhere in the NT at Eph. 1:6 in the active) Etymologically it should mean 'To be furnished with Grace” (Word Biblical Commentary, volume 35A, Pg 50, Nelson, 1989 ) - Protestant Greek scholar, John Nolland
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trevor
Guest
Do you believe Jesus was true man and true God? As a true man, a perfect man, why would he ignore the commandment of honoring they father and mother. Do you really believe that Jesus did not know who is mother was?
You are misguided and can only believe what you read. I am assuming this as you are quoting scripture and not using common sense. Jesus loved and honored His mother more than all of us on the earth combined love our mothers. This is most evident because of the fact that He was born of her.
You are like a horse. I can lead you to water but I cannot make you drink. Use your common sense. If you loved your mother, Jesus’ love for His mother makes my love and your love look like pond scum.
ybiC,
Trevor
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DianJo
Guest
The problem most protestants have with Mary is that they don’t THINK! They are quick to acknowledge that Jesus, of course, was without sin but they don’t think back far enough to Mary. They “forget” he had a mother. I tend to think, sometimes, they forget Jesus was human and where his humanity actually came from. (I even saw a program about Jesus where they tested some of the blood from the Shroud of Turin and it showed only female DNA but the image on the Shroud is clearly male! But that is something else entirely…)
If Mary had sin on her soul, whether original or personal, that sin would’ve been naturally transmitted to Jesus via his human birth! Original sin is transmitted to EVERY human being per Adam. Therefore, Jesus would’ve been born, at least, with original sin! THAT IS WHY MARY WAS PRESERVED FROM SIN FROM HER CONCEPTION! It was the work of her Son that saved her just as it saved those of the Old Testament who were clearly with God, i.e., Moses, Elijah. Jesus’ sacrifice is not held by space and/or time. God PREPARED the vessel, he purified the vessel, as with the Ark of The Covenant, for carrying the Savior of the world - God made human - in her human womb - He filled Mary with grace. For something to be full means that it is FULL, not lacking - in grace (“Hail, full of grace”!). There was no room for sin - ever! It was a permenant condition, not temporary. That is why she remained sinless. (See the explanation of the Greek in the above post)
To deny that Mary is the Mother of God, is to also deny the Incarnaton for if Jesus was not the human incarnation of God - then who was he! You essentially tear apart the Trinity into separate gods! The implications of denying Mary goes on and on and they don’t think about all that. They impose what THEY think God could or would do for a human being such as Mary. They tend to put restrictions on God’s power.
To deny all of this means that you cast doubt on God because everything about Mary points to Jesus. It is not about Mary - it’s about Jesus. When you go against this, you are guilty of first century heresies that were condemed by the Apostles, the church fathers and the Church. Somehow these heresies keep rearing their ugly heads! It might be a good idea for people to read about all the early heresies to see what they were all about. Then they would see and perhaps understand, a little better, why we see Mary the way we do.
If Mary had sin on her soul, whether original or personal, that sin would’ve been naturally transmitted to Jesus via his human birth! Original sin is transmitted to EVERY human being per Adam. Therefore, Jesus would’ve been born, at least, with original sin! THAT IS WHY MARY WAS PRESERVED FROM SIN FROM HER CONCEPTION! It was the work of her Son that saved her just as it saved those of the Old Testament who were clearly with God, i.e., Moses, Elijah. Jesus’ sacrifice is not held by space and/or time. God PREPARED the vessel, he purified the vessel, as with the Ark of The Covenant, for carrying the Savior of the world - God made human - in her human womb - He filled Mary with grace. For something to be full means that it is FULL, not lacking - in grace (“Hail, full of grace”!). There was no room for sin - ever! It was a permenant condition, not temporary. That is why she remained sinless. (See the explanation of the Greek in the above post)
To deny that Mary is the Mother of God, is to also deny the Incarnaton for if Jesus was not the human incarnation of God - then who was he! You essentially tear apart the Trinity into separate gods! The implications of denying Mary goes on and on and they don’t think about all that. They impose what THEY think God could or would do for a human being such as Mary. They tend to put restrictions on God’s power.
To deny all of this means that you cast doubt on God because everything about Mary points to Jesus. It is not about Mary - it’s about Jesus. When you go against this, you are guilty of first century heresies that were condemed by the Apostles, the church fathers and the Church. Somehow these heresies keep rearing their ugly heads! It might be a good idea for people to read about all the early heresies to see what they were all about. Then they would see and perhaps understand, a little better, why we see Mary the way we do.
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Lorarose
Guest
While I agree with what the Church teaches about Mary, I don’t agree that Mary “had” to be immaculately conceived in order to bear the Savior.
Even if Mary had retained the stain of original sin - God is certainly powerful enough that He could have protected the infant Jesus from that stain (just as he protected Mary from it)
I believe the Immaculate Conception was a gift of love from her Divine Son - to a beautiful mother that He loves very much.
They are the new Adam and the new Eve.
Even if Mary had retained the stain of original sin - God is certainly powerful enough that He could have protected the infant Jesus from that stain (just as he protected Mary from it)
I believe the Immaculate Conception was a gift of love from her Divine Son - to a beautiful mother that He loves very much.
They are the new Adam and the new Eve.
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Tom
Guest
I think it’s more of a “need”. Because “if” the Catholic Church is correct on this which, they’ve been taught from birth, goes against Scripture, then, well, maybe they are correct on other things they’ve been taught. It must be a frightening experience to realize you’ve been taught lies and deceit all of your life in the name of God. They won’t listen because they simply can’t. We need to pray for them.
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