Some questions about Mary

[rom323]

prodromos:

We believe that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven soon after her burial. We also believe the same for the Apostle John, although my understanding is that he had his disciples place him in his tomb before he had died, and when they returned the next day they found the tomb to be empty. So just like with Mary, the church has no relics of St John the Evangelist.

John.

Now let me get this straight, did Mary die or was she assumed into heaven???

 

[jimmy]

rom323:

Now let me get this straight, did Mary die or was she assumed into heaven???

It is fine to believe both. She did not have to be alive when her body was assumed into heaven. All the assumption means is that God took the body of Mary upto heaven.

 

[john_doran]

rom323:

Please humor me, just where in Scripture did you find the Assumption of Mary??? Where does it say that she was Immacuately Conceived???

can you please humour us? just where in scripture did you find the part that says you are to believe only that which is in scripture, and nothing that is not explicitly in scripture?

 

[Lorarose]

Just where in scripture does it say Mary WAS NOT assumed into heaven?
Just where in scripture does it say Mary COULD NOT have been assumed into heaven?

 

[mrS4ntA]

john doran:

can you please humour us? just where in scripture did you find the part that says you are to believe only that which is in scripture, and nothing that is not explicitly in scripture?

and if you still believe that that’s the case … humour us also this: find an explicit doctrine in the Bible stating the Trinity, Jesus’ hypostatic (that’s the term, right?) union, and even what books are supposed to be considered in the Bible … ? hmm?

 

[robertjohn]

Here is a quick response to the person who posted the initial questions. I am an ex-baptist taking an RCIA course.

The comments you raised are quite correct since they are from the Lord who is indeed the word of God. In the early church, the apostles, and church fathers regarded Mary with great awe and admiration because they KNEW the gospel was true. This contrasts with those of us today who suspect that the gospel might be true or that there is a slight chance that it is true.

Over the years the Roman Catholic church has tried to fill in the blanks (immaculate conception) of things that were not obvious at the time. As with teachings and practices of all churches, there is some variation in interpretation due to the complexity of the theological statements. This is why you will see quite a range in how people explain their understanding. Yes personal interpretation also exists within the Catholic church.

Move ahead at a pace you feel comfortable in your faith journey. Pray, reflect, and take your time.

In regard to the person who posted that protestants are cursed and cut off from God: My what a cheesey comment showing a lack of understanding. I would have to say some of the best people I have met in my life were practicing roman catholics. However, some of the worst people I have met in my life were practicing roman catholics. Which one are you???

 

[Exporter]

rom323:

Mary was highly favored to bring forth the Messiah. The Scriptures say nothing about her being “filled with grace.” Why is it that you believe that Mary must be just like Jesus? Let me clue you in, she isn’t!

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I know that you, rom323, are steeped in KJV Protestantism, and you are not very interested in the truth. I will give it one “shot”. I have before me a Bible that was translated from what is called the Vulgate (the original Christian Bible written in Latin in the 3rd Century) The Vulgate is as close to the original Bible as can be. I will quote exactly from The Douay-Rheims Bible which was translated from the Vulgate in 1582, in France.
Luke1: v.28 ( The Angel Gabriel came to the Virgin) “And the Angel being come in, said to her: Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee: Blessed art thou among women.”…30." Fear not Mary, for thou hast found grace with God."

Does it say Mary was full of grace? If she had any sin then she could not be FULL of grace. Actually there was no room for sin since she was FULL of grace.

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You say the words, “highly favored”. That was never correct. That was the work of King James men. Don’t you know that they were Protestants? These Protestants could not allow anything in their writtings that gave the Virgin Mary any honor. So they changed it.Sorry but the Greek original says Hail Mary, FULL of grace.

 

[mrS4ntA]

Exporter:

… but the Greek original says Hail Mary, FULL of grace.

or “kecharitome” to be exact

 

[gelsbern]

rom323:

Now let me get this straight, did Mary die or was she assumed into heaven???

Mary died, and then experienced the joining of her body and soul in Heaven. Even protestants believe that the body will be reunited with the soul after Jesus’ second coming. Mary was privileged to experience this early.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

rom323:

Now let me get this straight, did Mary die or was she assumed into heaven???

Hello rom323;

The Church’s statement on the Assumption does not define whether in fact Mary was assumed before death. So I believe that Catholics are free to believe what they choose as to that specific matter. Please - anyone out there who knows otherwise feel free to correct me on this.

Also, consider that the Assumption only adds to the Glory of God and does nothing to detract from it. Mary did not ascend into Heaven on her own power as did Jesus. She was taken - i.e. assumed into Heaven by the power of God. So, really, the doctrine is about the power of her Son - Jesus Christ. In other words, Mary always points the way to her Son, Jesus, as is evidenced in the doctrine of the Assumption and the Marian saying of “to Jesus through Mary.” The assumption is about Jesus sharing His graces with His mother, our mother, the Blessed Mother.

Peace and Charity

 

[TamaraS]

There have been some excellent posts defending our Blessed Mother. I was explaining the TRinity to my son tonight and how we have one God, but he is like a family. I explained the Father in Heaven (our creator), Jesus (our brother), and the Holy Spirit (our counselor). He asked who the sister is and I told him we are all either Jesus’s sister or brother. Then he said, 'Well, who’s the Mother?" I told him that Jesus gave us his own mother. This was logical to him since we are all his brothers and sisters. She is always telling us “Do whatever he tells you”. Her message is always about Christ. In John’s gospel he always referrs to himself as “The Disciple who loved Him”. I think he did that for a reason. John is not the only disciple who loved him. We all are. I pray that we all make a place for her in our home. I know that alot of protestants might say “Yeah, but you are worshipping her” (I think I’ve heard it all and that is not what I’m doing- it irritates me that people think they know how my heart and how my relationship with God works) There are many other things about the Catholic faith that most protestants need to understand first, and once that happens then alot of times everything with Mary just falls into place. But in my experience they immediately go after the Mary doctines first. I love my protestant brothers and sisters (I have them in my family), but after conversations with them I have come to the decision that I will not discuss Mary in such a fashion any more. The burden of proof is on them. I will always share my faith, but I really can’t worry about it anymore if they don’t agree with me no matter what I say. It takes an incredible amount of faith to trust and believe in what we believe in. For me there is no other place.

 

[rom323]

Lorarose:

Just where in scripture does it say Mary WAS NOT assumed into heaven?
Just where in scripture does it say Mary COULD NOT have been assumed into heaven?

Again I ask, where in Scripture does it say that Mary was assumed into heaven?If you are intellectually honest you will respond honestly and say that Scripture does not say that Mary was assumed into heaven and does not even hint at that conclusion. Using circular reasoning does not help your cause.

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[rom323]

*********************************************************************
I know that you, rom323, are steeped in KJV Protestantism, and you are not very interested in the truth. I will give it one “shot”. I have before me a Bible that was translated from what is called the Vulgate (the original Christian Bible written in Latin in the 3rd Century) The Vulgate is as close to the original Bible as can be. I will quote exactly from The Douay-Rheims Bible which was translated from the Vulgate in 1582, in France.
Luke1: v.28 ( The Angel Gabriel came to the Virgin) “And the Angel being come in, said to her: Hail full of grace, the Lord is with thee: Blessed art thou among women.”…30." Fear not Mary, for thou hast found grace with God."

Does it say Mary was full of grace? If she had any sin then she could not be FULL of grace. Actually there was no room for sin since she was FULL of grace.

---

You say the words, “highly favored”. That was never correct. That was the work of King James men. Don’t you know that they were Protestants? These Protestants could not allow anything in their writtings that gave the Virgin Mary any honor. So they changed it.Sorry but the Greek original says Hail Mary, FULL of grace.

The Latin Vulgate is not an accurate translation of the bible. It is a translation of a translation. **Please tell me how Genesis 3:15 reads in your **Douay-Rheims bible?

Modern scholarship has dismissed the translation “full of grace” as a nonviable rendition of caritow. This word occurs in the same form in Ephesians 1:6. Should we then conclude that all believers are without original sin?

 

[rom323]

gelsbern:

Mary died, and then experienced the joining of her body and soul in Heaven. Even protestants believe that the body will be reunited with the soul after Jesus’ second coming. Mary was privileged to experience this early.

If Mary died, please tell me why she died?

 

[Lorarose]

Again I ask, where in Scripture does it say that Mary was assumed into heaven?If you are intellectually honest you will respond honestly and say that Scripture does not say that Mary was assumed into heaven and does not even hint at that conclusion. Using circular reasoning does not help your cause.

I didn’t think my point was all that difficult to understand, but I see I’ll have to spell it out for you.

No…scripture does not specifically state that Mary was assumed into heaven.
Should I use this as proof that it never happened?
The scriptures fail to describe several historical events…should I reject them because they are not in scripture?

But then again…scripture does not state that Mary WAS NOT assumed into heaven either.
If we are only going to use scripture as “evidence” - there is nothing in there that DENIES Mary was assumed either.

 

[rom323]

Robert in SD:

Hello rom323;

The Church’s statement on the Assumption does not define whether in fact Mary was assumed before death. So I believe that Catholics are free to believe what they choose as to that specific matter. Please - anyone out there who knows otherwise feel free to correct me on this.

Also, consider that the Assumption only adds to the Glory of God and does nothing to detract from it. Mary did not ascend into Heaven on her own power as did Jesus. She was taken - i.e. assumed into Heaven by the power of God. So, really, the doctrine is about the power of her Son - Jesus Christ. In other words, Mary always points the way to her Son, Jesus, as is evidenced in the doctrine of the Assumption and the Marian saying of “to Jesus through Mary.” The assumption is about Jesus sharing His graces with His mother, our mother, the Blessed Mother.

Peace and Charity

Actually it is important to know if Mary died, for if she died we need to know why she died!

The Assumption of Mary is another attempt to parallell Mary with Jesus. It adds nothing to the Glory of God!

We do not need to go through Mary to get to Jesus. This is another example of elevating the creature to the status of the Creator! Jesus is the only Mediator between God and Man!

 

[Lorarose]

The Assumption of Mary is another attempt to parallell Mary with Jesus. It adds nothing to the Glory of God!

Does this mean you deny the resurrection of the dead?

We do not need to go through Mary to get to Jesus.

Who here has claimed this?

This is another example of elevating the creature to the status of the Creator! Jesus is the only Mediator between God and Man!

So…when we believe in the resurrection of the dead - are we elevating ourselves to the status of the Creator?

 

[rom323]

Lorarose:

I didn’t think my point was all that difficult to understand, but I see I’ll have to spell it out for you.

No…scripture does not specifically state that Mary was assumed into heaven.
Should I use this as proof that it never happened?
The scriptures fail to describe several historical events…should I reject them because they are not in scripture?

But then again…scripture does not state that Mary WAS NOT assumed into heaven either.
If we are only going to use scripture as “evidence” - there is nothing in there that DENIES Mary was assumed either.

Why is it so important to you that Mary be assumed into heaven?

It seems that since Mary was entrusted to John’s care, and John wrote the Gospel of John, 1, 2 and 3rd John and the book of Revelation, we would find some mention of this event in Scripture.

 

[rom323]

Lorarose:

Does this mean you deny the resurrection of the dead?

Are you now saying that Mary rose from the dead?

Who here has claimed this?

Robert in SD.

Hello rom323;

The Church’s statement on the Assumption does not define whether in fact Mary was assumed before death. So I believe that Catholics are free to believe what they choose as to that specific matter. Please - anyone out there who knows otherwise feel free to correct me on this.

Also, consider that the Assumption only adds to the Glory of God and does nothing to detract from it. Mary did not ascend into Heaven on her own power as did Jesus. She was taken - i.e. assumed into Heaven by the power of God. So, really, the doctrine is about the power of her Son - Jesus Christ. In other words, Mary always points the way to her Son, Jesus, as is evidenced in the doctrine of the Assumption and the Marian saying of "to Jesus through Mary." The assumption is about Jesus sharing His graces with His mother, our mother, the Blessed Mother.

So…when we believe in the resurrection of the dead - are we elevating ourselves to the status of the Creator?

Please don’t insult me with your intellectual dishonesty! Has the resurrection of the dead occured? Did I and the rest of the world miss it???

 

[Lorarose]

Why is it so important to you that Mary be assumed into heaven?

First of all…I don’t find the notion that Jesus WOULD or COULD perform such a miracle to be disturbing at all.
We know that Enoch and Elijah were treated differently by God - and God had the power to do with them whatever He chose.

Second…while I believe that everything in scripture is true - I do not believe ALL TRUTH is in scripture!
In fact…John tells us so at the end of his gospel doesn’t he?
Doesn’t he admit that he did not include everything Jesus said and did?
This automatically means there were things that Jesus said and did that were remembered by the Apostles, but not written down.
This is what the Church means concerning Sacred Tradition.
That the “Word” consists of those writings declared to be divinely inspired…PLUS the oral tradition passed onto the Apostles.

In the 3rd or 4th century a church was built in Mary’s honor.
They wrote to the Church of Jerusalem requesting her body be moved to this new church.
The church of Jerusalem responded that they could not honor this request as the body of Mary had been assumed into heaven by her Divine Son. They responded they could send some of her clothing - but that there was no body to send.

So…why is it important to me? Because I believe it is true.
Why is it so important to you that she WAS NOT assumed into heaven?
Do you doubt Jesus’s ability to do so?

It seems that since Mary was entrusted to John’s care, and John wrote the Gospel of John, 1, 2 and 3rd John and the book of Revelation, we would find some mention of this event in Scripture.

Interesting you would mention John - the author of the book of revelation.
He did describe an interesting woman in heaven who gave birth to a male child. She was wearing a crown of twelve stars.
Hmmm…