Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[medwigel]

Then they go to the ones that God has appointed to absolve the sins.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that endorses this.
Again, find me the Scripture where it says men repent and then go to someone God has appointed to absolve them for sins they’ve already been forgive for.

Scripture does not say this to YOU because you are reading it through anti-Catholic lenses. It says that to us because we have received what the Apostles believed and taught.

No, it’s clear you don’t want to accept what the Scripture says because you value the directives of men over the directives of God. You proved my point, you are looking at the Scripture through a “Catholic lens” when you should really be reading all Scripture through a “Christ focused lens”. It’s dangerous when you take you focus off Christ; it causes men to come up with what sounds right to them and ignore God’s true intent.
If you remove the scales from your eyes, just like Paul, you will be able to see Christ more clearly…remove the lens, it’s blinding you.

 

[medwigel]

He knows that guilt and shame can hinder our spiritual growth, so He created the structure that people could hear His voice telling them they are forgiven.

Once again, please show me where this so called structure is in the Bible?
Christ talks about how He has forgiven us in the Bible but He somehow fails to lay out this so called “structure” were people hear from another man that they are forgiven.

 

[medwigel]

Yes, we all receive the Holy Spirit, but not everyone is called and gifted the same. God invested certain tasks and gifts, and we are all to use them, and participate in them as He has ordered the Church. He invested the Apostles with the authority to forgive sins in His name, and they passed this to their successors, the Bishops.

Yeah, you were doing real good when you started talking about gifting, because that you can find in the Bible, but then you start given men the authority to forgive sins.
Men forgiving sins on Christ behalf…fake news! This is found nowhere in the Bible.

 

[medwigel]

Actually, he says that the elders should be called to the sick man. This is because the sick person may not be able to get out of bed, and may not even be conscious. Persons who are conscious can make a confession. Those who are not may be forgiven in the Sacrament.

Again, there is not mention of confession of sin as part of their healing

You have yet to understand this scripture in the light of other scriptures about confession and forgiveness of sins.

Please enlighten me then on these other scriptures about confession and forgiveness of sins.

On the contrary, I think medwigel is quite confused. He has been led astray from the Truth.

Yet you have failed to show me where I have strayed from the Truth, because every time I challenge you on your misinterpretation of the Scripture the best response you have for me is, “you don’t understand”.
No, I’m the the one who’s insisting on sticking to the Truth which is the Word of God, you want go with man made “traditions” that are not supported by the Word=Truth.
so, who’s straying from the Truth?

 

[medwigel]

Medwigel seems to separate the whole process in verse 14 and 15 apparently to serve his argument. He should also clarify if he can why Jesus did both absolution and healing in one instance. For instance one would go for healing but instead Jesus would simply absolve.

I just re-read your above statement, and yeah, it still makes no sense.

No sir, there is nothing confusing. The Holy Spirit is talking of sickness healing and deliverance in verse 15 with a condition introduced by " and if he has…" Verse 16 has been built up from the preceding verses and starts with an injunction.

Yeah, verse 16 is telling you to go to each other, and last I checked “each other” is not the elders.

 

[medwigel]

when you are discussing the ultimate authority you cannot then appeal to a greater authority.

So the creation can’t have more authority than the Creator!

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . .

I’m the the one who’s insisting on sticking to the Truth which is the Word of God . . .

What do you mean by “the Word of God” medwigel. Please give me an exhaustive definition from the Bible or tell me where . . .

. . . “the Word of God” = “Bible ALONE”.

You seem to have a built-in phony un-Biblical pre-supposition.

 

[medwigel]

The Church did not invest Peter with infallibility, Jesus did.

Where did Jesus ever invest Peter with infallibility?

it is impossible for a Pope to infallibly teach doctrine or practice that is opposed to God’s word.

Do I need to pull out the list of some the worse Popes again who indeed taught false doctrine that later had to be corrected?

His promise to lead the Church into all Truth would be voided, and God cannot deny Himself.

Yes, Christ said that He would lead the church not that traditions would lead the church.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . .

Yeah, verse 16 is telling you to go to each other, and last I checked “each other” is not the elders.

The “each other” IS in the context of “the presbyteroi” (priests) medwigel.

The same guys who can pray over you with oil to forgive sins too.

 

[Cathoholic]

medwigel . . .

. . . . Men forgiving sins on Christ behalf…fake news! This is found nowhere in the Bible.

.

NOT MATTHEW 9:1-8 (but a medwigel phantom verse) 1 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. 2 And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, 'Rise and walk? 6 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he then said to the paralytic–“Rise, take up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home. 8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and
they glorified God, who had given such AUTHORITY to MEN.
But Jesus still knowing their thoughts replied “MEN” are not given such authority.
You guys are wrong!
Men forgiving sins on My behalf…would be fake news!
The only one with power to forgive sins in this manner is ME, ONE MAN (not “MEN”). And not Me through others either.

.

Here is what the Scriptures REALLY state . . . .

.

MATTHEW 9:1-8 1 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. 2 And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, lying on his bed; and when Jesus saw their faith he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.”
3 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, 'Rise and walk? 6 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he then said to the paralytic–“Rise, take up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home.
8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and
they glorified God, who had given such AUTHORITY to MEN.

 

[guanophore]

There is NOTHING in the Bible that endorses this.

Of course you cannot “see” what is there to endorse it, because your anti-Catholic blinders prevent that.

Again, find me the Scripture where it says men repent and then go to someone God has appointed to absolve them for sins they’ve already been forgive for.

You have been given these verses, and are unable to see what the Apostles taught in them. You belong to a tradition that has been separated from the Apostolic faith so much for so long, that you cannot even see the gap that exists.

No, it’s clear you don’t want to accept what the Scripture says because you value the directives of men over the directives of God. Y

Sola Scriptura is not found in Scripture, and is itself a “directive of men over the directives of God.” Jesus was clear that we are to listen to the Apostles as we listen to Him, as all authority was given to Him, and He gave it to the Apostles. The Apostles gave it to their successors, the Bishops.

You proved my point, you are looking at the Scripture through a “Catholic lens” when you should really be reading all Scripture through a “Christ focused lens”.

There is no separation between the two, medwigel. The Church founded by Christ is Catholic, and the Scriptures are to be understood in context. The Context of the NT is the Catholic Church. All 27 books were written by, for, and about Catholics. Jesus does not separate Himself from His Catholic Church, and we do not either.

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Defiance against those appointed by Christ is defiance against Him, so of course we listen to Scripture through the faith that produced it. It is not of men, but of God:

2 Peter 1:21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

It’s dangerous when you take you focus off Christ; it causes men to come up with what sounds right to them and ignore God’s true intent.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point. By changing the definition of “church”, you have taken the focus off Christ, who is the Head of His One Body, the Church.

If you remove the scales from your eyes, just like Paul, you will be able to see Christ more clearly…remove the lens, it’s blinding you.

I am fortunate to have the Sacred Tradition (teaching of the Apostles) through which I can understand the writings they produced. No one can remove their own scales - only God can do that. If you don’t know you have scales, it is difficult to understand that you have been blinded by them.

Perhaps you would be able to discern that my “scales” had been removed if I thought as you do?

 

[guanophore]

Once again, please show me where this so called structure is in the Bible?

You have been shown this, medwigel, and it has become clear that you cannot “see” it. Your anti-Catholic blinders prevent you.

Christ talks about how He has forgiven us in the Bible but He somehow fails to lay out this so called “structure” were people hear from another man that they are forgiven.

I can understand why you see it that way. You and your faith tradition have been separated from the Apostolic faith so much for so long, you don’t even see how far away your beliefs are from those who wrote the NT. Perhaps you will one day learn more about your family history, and come to know about this gap.

then you start given men the authority to forgive sins.

No, I did not do this, Jesus did:

Matthew 9:8
8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Which 'men" were these, medwigel?

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

And how would they be able to make this discernment if sins were not confessed?

Men forgiving sins on Christ behalf…fake news! This is found nowhere in the Bible.

I think you might have parts of your bible missing!

Again, there is not mention of confession of sin as part of their healing

No. A person may be too ill to make a confession. Confession is made by those who are able, and anointing is given to those who are not.

Please enlighten me then on these other scriptures about confession and forgiveness of sins.

This has already been done for you medwigel, and you have rejected the Word of God.

Yet you have failed to show me where I have strayed from the Truth, because every time I challenge you on your misinterpretation of the Scripture the best response you have for me is, “you don’t understand”.

No, I respond that you have blinders on your eyes, so you cannot “see” what has been written. It is true that you don’t understand, but the more fundamental problem is that you cannot “see”.

No, I’m the the one who’s insisting on sticking to the Truth which is the Word of God, you want go with man made “traditions” that are not supported by the Word=Truth.

What seems clear to me is that you must reject a great deal of scripture in order to cling to your traditions.

You seem to have a built-in phony un-Biblical pre-supposition.

No, I think it is a bona fide unbibical pre-supposition. He has honesty been misled to fall into the heresy of Sola Scriptura. No phony here!

 

[guanophore]

Where did Jesus ever invest Peter with infallibility?

Jesus invested the Church with this gift, by His promise to lead the Church into “all Truth”. Jesus prevents the Church from falling into error because if the faithful espoused error, they would pass through the gates of hell.

Once again, please show me where this so called structure is in the Bible?

You have been shown this, medwigel, and it has become clear that you cannot “see” it. Your anti-Catholic blinders prevent you.

Christ talks about how He has forgiven us in the Bible but He somehow fails to lay out this so called “structure” were people hear from another man that they are forgiven.

I can understand why you see it that way. You and your faith tradition have been separated from the Apostolic faith so much for so long, you don’t even see how far away your beliefs are from those who wrote the NT. Perhaps you will one day learn more about your family history, and come to know about this gap.

then you start given men the authority to forgive sins.

No, I did not do this, Jesus did:

Matthew 9:8
8 When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Which 'men" were these, medwigel?

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

And how would they be able to make this discernment if sins were not confessed?

Men forgiving sins on Christ behalf…fake news! This is found nowhere in the Bible.

I think you might have parts of your bible missing!

Again, there is not mention of confession of sin as part of their healing

No. A person may be too ill to make a confession. Confession is made by those who are able, and anointing is given to those who are not.

Please enlighten me then on these other scriptures about confession and forgiveness of sins.

This has already been done for you medwigel, and you have rejected the Word of God.

Yet you have failed to show me where I have strayed from the Truth, because every time I challenge you on your misinterpretation of the Scripture the best response you have for me is, “you don’t understand”.

No, I respond that you have blinders on your eyes, so you cannot “see” what has been written. It is true that you don’t understand, but the more fundamental problem is that you cannot “see”.

No, I’m the the one who’s insisting on sticking to the Truth which is the Word of God, you want go with man made “traditions” that are not supported by the Word=Truth.

What seems clear to me is that you must reject a great deal of scripture in order to cling to your traditions.

 

[guanophore]

Do I need to pull out the list of some the worse Popes again who indeed taught false doctrine that later had to be corrected?

No. the fact that you would offer such a thing is sufficient proof that you do not understand the difference between the gift of infallibility and impeccability.

The reason the Church needs the gift of infallibility is because of peccability! Have you ever considered talking to Catholics about what they really believe, rather than strawmen?

Yes, Christ said that He would lead the church not that traditions would lead the church.

There is no separation between the Apostolic Teaching and the teaching of Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

What the Apostles taught orally is as inspired and inerrant as the Scripture.

What is it that brings you to a Catholic Answers website, medwigel? You don’t seem to be here to obtain any “catholic answers”. You reject those that are given to you, so one has to wonder about your motives.

You remind me of a child sticking both fingers into his ears yelling “I dowanna hear it I dowanna hear it”!

 

[medwigel]

What is it that brings you to a Catholic Answers website, medwigel? You don’t seem to be here to obtain any “catholic answers”. You reject those that are given to you, so one has to wonder about your motives.

I’m not on this site for “catholic answers” because they are not Biblical.
You’re like a child who has their hands over their eyes refusing to see the truth crying “uh uh, that’s not what they told me” rather than acknowledging the inconsistencies that exist between your “traditions” and the Word of God.

 

[medwigel]

Once again, please show me where this so called structure is in the Bible?

No, you’ve repeatedly quoted tradition not Scripture.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not on this site for “catholic answers” because they are not Biblical.

I appreciate your honesty.

I agree with you. The Catholic faith was whole and entire before a single word of the NT was every written. And what the Apostles believed and taught, that quickly became identified as Catholic faith, is very different from what you understand as '“biblical”.

acknowledging the inconsistencies that exist between your “traditions” and the Word of God.

The thing is, medwigel, there can be no contradiction between Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture. They both come from the same source, which is the Holy Spirit. The only “inconsistency” lies in your interpretation of one, the other, or both.

I do understand, though, why there seem to be inconsistencies. You have been fed a great deal of anti-Catholic rhetoric, and have clearly demonstrated that you are arguing against things that we don’t even profess to believe.

So, that leads us back to the original question, which you failed to answer. What is your reason for being on CAF?

 

[medwigel]

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Why don’t you read the verse prior to this one because that is the beginning of what Jesus is saying. He first told them to “receive the Holy Spirit”. It is because they have the Holy Spirit that they then have the authority to forgive and retain sins. So I can’t speak for you, but I have the Holy Spirit, and He is not a respecter of person, so whatever power is mentioned through Him I too have it.

 

[medwigel]

I do understand, though, why there seem to be inconsistencies. You have been fed a great deal of anti-Catholic rhetoric, and have clearly demonstrated that you are arguing against things that we don’t even profess to believe.

The anti-catholic rhetoric that I have been fed is the Bible!!

 

[medwigel]

What seems clear to me is that you must reject a great deal of scripture in order to cling to your traditions.

This from the person who always tries to explain discrepancies with “you don’t understand traditions”
When have I ever espoused traditions? Traditions is your religion not mine.