Some think Matthew 4:4 is teaching sola Scriptura

[MT1926]

when the Bible never called for such a system.

Have you read the entire Bible or just the parts that support your traditions?

The OT is important too, it shows us how God was preparing us for the coming of Christ. It’s not just a bunch of books that show us how things were in the old days and how Christ chucked that book out the window and wrote the NT.

Confession, penance and reconciliation have always been a part of God’s plan.

Genesis 3 God was looking for contrition. Instead Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent.

As our creator God knows we need ritual to help us order our lives.

Leviticus 5:5-6
5 When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed, 6 and he shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord for the sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

Notice we have God insisting on an out loud confession to the priest. Then gives the sinner a liturgical act of sacrifice and penance. So they had to say they were sorry and then show that they meant it.

And notice it is the priest that shall make atonement for the sinner.

It is important to point out that these sacrifices did not force God to forgive them.

The rituals God instituted were for their benefit not His. He forgave out of love.

This was still in practice in Jesus time and would have been foremost on the Apostles minds when Jesus said…

John 20:21-23
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

This is the first command to the Apostles after His resurrection. When the Apostles heard these words they would have understood that they are now the Priests of the New Covenant. As Priest’s it was their responsibility to make atonement for the sinner.

How where they to do it? The way it was always done. By first hearing the confession of the repentant sinner. They would then make atonement for the sinner by offering a sacrifice, which would no longer be an animal sacrifice but the once for all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Jesus freely offered the sacrifice but it still has to be applied to the sinner. Like you pointed out in Romans 6 a one time application of grace doesn’t cover all future sins. And finally they would give a penance. Not as a requirement for forgiveness. The sinner was already forgiven before the penance was issued. The penance isn’t payment for the sin it is for the benefit of the sinner. Because God knows we need ritual.

This is not a new idea to the people of the day. They would have accepted it as a continuation of the Old Covenant. No where in the Bible does it say we no longer have to confess our sins. Wouldn’t you think something the Jews have been doing for 1000’s of years and no longer have to do would be mentioned in the Bible, like circumcision in Acts 15?

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

That’s right, you need to ask the question- if forgiveness is freely given then is Christ contradicting Himself in this verse, or does this verse mean something else?

No it means exactly what it say. As you already pointed out a gift can still be free even though we have to get off our butts go to the store (church) and ask for it (repent).

If you choose to take this verse the way you are interpreting it, then grace is not a free gift and Christ is then a liar, or you can ask is there another meaning (this is where the Amplified version of the Bible can shed some light on the original meaning and context for the verse). Since God is not a man that He should lie, there must be more to that verse.

Only in your tradition not ours. Once again back to your ice cream analogy. Just because we have to ask for forgiveness does not mean we paid for the gift. Faith, which you already stated is necessary to receive the free gift, isn’t a one time event, as you pointed out in Romans 6. The fact that your faith includes continued repentance in no way makes the free gift of grace any less free.

I can’t believe you aren’t able to see the contradictions in your statements?

My pastor has taught me to be a critical thinker and to study the Bible, and not just believe something because someone turned it into a sacrament or made it into a doctrine.

Have you questioned the interpreters of the Amplified Bible? Like I asked…

No where in John 20 does it say because of their faith or because of their unbelief. On what Scriptural basis are you adding these words to Scripture?

It seems to me, since you are a “CRITICAL THINKER” you should have been able to give me a better answer to this question than simply stating the Amplified Bible says so?

Have you asked why the Amplified Bible interprets it this way? Seems to me if someone is going to add words to the Bible they darn well better have a good reason before I believe it.

How did you come to this conclusion?

Well the phrase High Priest in the Bible means the Top ranking Priest. Or the one in charge of the other priests.

2 Kings 23:4 And the king commanded Hilki′ah, the high priest, and the priests of the second order

Nehemiah 3:1 Then Eli′ashib the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests

Judith 4:14 And Jo′akim the high priest and all the priests

Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest, who was called Ca′iaphas,

Mark 14:53 And they led Jesus to the high priest; and all the chief priests

The Bible tells us that Jesus is now our High Priest. No where does it say He is our ONLY Priest.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

I would also show you Scripture in the Old Testament as well but that’s probably above your pay grade given your limited understanding.

No need. It is really irrelevant. Catholics don’t claim that priests of the New Covenant atone for anyone’s sin anyway. It is just a strawman.

Colossians 2:13 You were at one time spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were Gentiles without the Law. But God has now brought you to life with Christ. God forgave us all our sins; 14 he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.

Perhaps this is another passage where you are "adding’ to the text to make it fit with your theology? This says that God forgave our sins, and took away the debt. It does not say He took away the sin. The record was nailed to the cross.

Just because something is free doesn’t mean you don’t have to take some steps to get it.

I am just putting this to remind you that you said it. In this, you are in agreement with Catholics. Not everyone received the free gift of forgiveness purchased for us by Jesus on the cross, only those who are willing to do what He requires, such as baptism.

So as you can see, Paul is saying you can’t use the forgiveness you have through grace as a pass to sin and do whatever you want, but grace is still freely given nonetheless.

Gosh, medwigel, you sound as if you almost believe that we need to work out our salvation!

The barrier is when you create traditions and call them sacraments and place men as intermediaries between believers and Christ when the Bible never called for such a system.

I can see why this would be a barrier to you, since you do not grasp that it is Jesus we meet in the Sacraments. Jesus set it up this way, and we receive the faith through His Apostles.

I also understand you cannot 'see" these things in your Bible. Those daggone anti-Catholic blinders again!

 

[guanophore]

I quoted the Amplified version of the Bible. The Amplified Bible is designed to “amplify” the text by using additional words to bring out the intended meaning to present day text based on the original texts.

I am glad you understand what this means. The problem occurs when the words that are added bring out a meaning other than what was intended in the original texts. These words are not inspired or inerrant.

So the words in the brackets are trying to convey the true meaning and intent from the original text.

Yes, but sometimes it misses the mark.

That’s right, you need to ask the question- if forgiveness is freely given then is Christ contradicting Himself in this verse, or does this verse mean something else?

The premise is erroneous, so that which is concluded upon it is erroneous. The forgiveness is freely given, but one must confess their sins and repent of them to obtain it.

If this were not the case, it would not have been the practice of the church for 1500 years, until new doctrines were developed during the Reformation.

My pastor has taught me to be a critical thinker and to study the Bible, and not just believe something because someone turned it into a sacrament or made it into a doctrine.

Great! The blind leading the blind, so both fall into a pit!

I have been taught not to trust in man’s traditions but in God’s word alone.

Well there is nothing like a little heresy to spice up life, I always say.

 

[medwigel]

I have been taught not to trust in man’s traditions but in God’s word alone.

Ah, words of the unenlightened. Last I check Jesus also challenged the traditions of His time and He too was called a heretic when He went against the long held beliefs and teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees, and they condemned Him to death for the truth. So if that’s your view when someone shakes up your misinterpretations of the Bible then I’m in good company with Christ.

 

[medwigel]

Have you read the entire Bible or just the parts that support your traditions?

The OT is important too, it shows us how God was preparing us for the coming of Christ. It’s not just a bunch of books that show us how things were in the old days and how Christ chucked that book out the window and wrote the NT.

You may have read it by you don’t understand it. Yes, the Old Testament prepares us for the coming of Christ and the New Testament represents His new covenant with us. the old covenant and the new covenant are not the same.

Leviticus 5:5-6
5 When a man is guilty in any of these, he shall confess the sin he has committed, 6 and he shall bring his guilt offering to the Lord for the sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin.

This is the old covenant when we lived under the law. In the new covenant we now live under grace through faith.
You can’t live under the law and under grace at the same time.
You should read Galatians 3 were Paul speaks about the law your are referencing vs faith.

Galatians 3:10 Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse. For the scripture says, “Whoever does not always obey everything that is written in the book of the Law is under God’s curse!” 11 Now, it is clear that no one is put right with God by means of the Law, because the scripture says, “Only the person who is put right with God through faith shall live.”[a] 12 But the Law has nothing to do with faith. Instead, as the scripture says, “Whoever does everything the Law requires will live.”
13 But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the curse that the Law brings; for the scripture says, “Anyone who is hanged on a tree is under God’s curse.”

Galatians 3:19 What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is, and it was meant to last until the coming of Abraham’s descendant, to whom the promise was made. The Law was handed down by angels, with a man acting as a go-between. 20 But a go-between is not needed when only one person is involved; and God is one.

Galatians 3:23 But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed. 24 And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith. 25 Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us.

You can’t refer to and follow only parts of the Levitical law and ignore other parts. So if you want to follow the ordinances laid out in Leviticus 5:5-6 then you must follow ALL of the laws, not just the ones you want to cherry pick (see verse 10). The Levitical law of the old covenant relies on men serving as high priest, but with the new covenant comes new rules with Christ serving as our high priest.

You may have read the Bible but you have not studied the Bible?

 

[medwigel]

By first hearing the confession of the repentant sinner. They would then make atonement for the sinner by offering a sacrifice, which would no longer be an animal sacrifice but the once for all sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Believers don’t offer Christ as a sacrifice for the sins of people, Christ offers Himself as a sacrifice for people because Christ now serves as the hight priest not people.
You can’t credit man with what Christ has done.

 

[medwigel]

2 Kings 23:4 And the king commanded Hilki′ah, the high priest, and the priests of the second order

Nehemiah 3:1 Then Eli′ashib the high priest rose up with his brethren the priests

Judith 4:14 And Jo′akim the high priest and all the priests

Matthew 26:3 Then the chief priests and the elders of the people gathered in the palace of the high priest , who was called Ca′iaphas,

Mark 14:53 And they led Jesus to the high priest; and all the chief priests

The Bible tells us that Jesus is now our High Priest. No where does it say He is our ONLY Priest.

All of these high priest you are referring to served under the Levitical law, and of these men the Bible says:
Hebrews 7:28 The Law of Moses appoints men who are imperfect to be high priests; but God’s promise made with the vow, which came later than the Law, appoints the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

 

[medwigel]

Have you questioned the interpreters of the Amplified Bible? Like I asked…

Taken from http://www.lockman.org
Dewey Lockman saw the need for a translation of the Bible that would be clearly readable in current English language, but without sacrificing ANY accuracy in the translation from Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. To this end, he organized a group of scholars and pastors in 1959, who would, by 1971, complete the translation from the original languages into the New American Standard Bible, modeled after the scholarship and accuracy of the American Standard Version published in 1901.
The first edition was published in 1965. It is largely a revision of the American Standard Version of 1901, with reference made to various texts in the original languages. It is designed to “amplify” the text by using additional wording and a system of punctuation and other typographical features to bring out all shades of meaning present in the original texts.

It seems to me, since you are a “CRITICAL THINKER” you should have been able to give me a better answer to this question than simply stating the Amplified Bible says so?

There you go, I did the research for you.

You’re welcome

 

[medwigel]

My favorite confessional booth (the ice cream store) is offering the free gift of forgiveness and grace

The free gift of forgiveness and grace is coming from Christ not from the confessional booth. If you want the free ice cream you have go to the source of the offer, and the source for forgiveness and grace is Christ, not the priest in the confessional booth.

The point I am making is I agree with St. Paul, the free gift of grace you already received is not a pass to your future sins. To me this would mean the grace you have right now does not cover the sins you will commit 10 years from now. I’m pretty sure you will agree that we both will most like continue to sin in this life. Therefore, it is only logical to come to the conclusion something else needs to take place in order to get more FREE grace to cover those future sins.

The grace that Christ gives us is complete and all reaching. His one act covers ALL of our sins
Of this Paul says:
Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Paul says Christ has forgiven ALL of our sins, no some or half or past- no, Christ forgave all our sins. Christ made a way for us even before we believed in Him!

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel . . .

Believers don’t offer Christ as a sacrifice for the sins of people, Christ offers Himself as a sacrifice for people because Christ now serves as the hight priest not people.
You can’t credit man with what Christ has done.

If you are alluding to the priest and Mass here Medwigel, it shows a lack of understanding regarding what the Mass is . . . And what the New Covenant ministerial priesthood is as well.

If not, please clarify.

 

[medwigel]

Colossians 2:13 You were at one time spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were Gentiles without the Law. But God has now brought you to life with Christ. God forgave us all our sins; 14 he canceled the unfavorable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it completely by nailing it to the cross.

You know this statement makes you look less than smart right?
I quoted the Good News translation, one you should be familiar with if you ever actually opened your Bible.
Now come on, you don’t even accept the Good News translation of the Bible?
Tell me which translation of the Bible is acceptable to you and I’ll get it in that version for you.

 

[guanophore]

He too was called a heretic when He went against the long held beliefs and teachings of the Pharisees and Sadducees,

REally? Where did you read that?

they condemned Him to death for the truth

“They” being who?

Didn’t you think Pilate wanted to release Him?

So if that’s your view when someone shakes up your misinterpretations of the Bible

I am sorry to tell you, medwigel, but you have not “shaken up” anything. I have heard all of these fundamentalist evangelical claims for decades, and nothing you have said here is new or shaking to me at all.

This is the old covenant when we lived under the law.

Actually, Gentiles never did live under this Law.

Those who depend on obeying the Law live under a curse.

He is speaking of Mosaic Law.

You can’t refer to and follow only parts of the Levitical law and ignore other parts.

Did you think that Catholics espoused the Levitical law?

The Levitical law of the old covenant relies on men serving as high priest, but with the new covenant comes new rules with Christ serving as our high priest.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

Believers don’t offer Christ as a sacrifice for the sins of people, Christ offers Himself as a sacrifice for people because Christ now serves as the hight priest not people.
You can’t credit man with what Christ has done.

You have made it clear that you do not understand what the CC believes and teaches. Really, where do you get this stuff? Oh, that’s right, your pastor!

All of these high priest you are referring to served under the Levitical law, and of these men the Bible says:
Hebrews 7:28 The Law of Moses appoints men who are imperfect to be high priests; but God’s promise made with the vow, which came later than the Law, appoints the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Exactly! Priests of the New Covenant are not heirus priests, but are taken up into Christ’s priesthood, and are of the order of Melchizedech. They offer bread and wine to God.

 

[guanophore]

without sacrificing ANY accuracy in the translation

Of course he was consistent with his own beliefs about what the text meant.

It is designed to “amplify” the text by using additional wording and a system of punctuation and other typographical features to bring out all shades of meaning present in the original texts.

Yes, adding words to Scripture.

source for forgiveness and grace is Christ, not the priest in the confessional booth.

Again you demonstrate your ignorance of what Catholics believe and teach. These are just strawmen, arguments against things that we do not espouse. No one has claimed that Christ is not the source of all forgiveness and grace, or that the priest is the Source instead of God. You have been fed a pack of lies.

Paul says Christ has forgiven ALL of our sins, no some or half or past- no, Christ forgave all our sins. Christ made a way for us even before we believed in Him!

Logically following your reasoning here, every human being will automatically go to heaven.

You know this statement makes you look less than smart right?

Whether or no, the passage does not say he took away sin.

Now come on, you don’t even accept the Good News translation of the Bible?

It is not a matter of whether I accept certain translations or not. I have 23 of them. The issue is that not all of them reflect what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[medwigel]

You have made it clear that you do not understand what the CC believes and teaches. Really, where do you get this stuff? Oh, that’s right, your pastor!

No boo, I get it from the Bible, which again I encourage you to open up and read.

 

[guanophore]

I get it from the Bible

No, medwigel. You did not get your warped understanding of Catholicism from the Bible!

 

[medwigel]

Paul says Christ has forgiven ALL of our sins, no some or half or past- no, Christ forgave all our sins. Christ made a way for us even before we believed in Him!

There you go not reading the full text.
Everyone who BELIEVES in Christ will go to heaven.

 

[Cathoholic]

Medwigel . . .

The Levitical law of the old covenant relies on men serving as high priest,
but with the new covenant comes new rules with Christ serving as our high priest.

I am glad you said this Medwigel.

This is WHY a priest forgiving IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST, can be efficacious.

(Although I would use the term “fulfilled” as in Matthew 5:17, over “new rules”).

 

[medwigel]

It is not a matter of whether I accept certain translations or not. I have 23 of them. The issue is that not all of them reflect what the Apostles believed and taught.

Ah, so the translations done by multiple scholars is wrong…got it
Way to scapegoat your deficiencies

 

[guanophore]

There you go not reading the full text.
Everyone who BELIEVES in Christ will go to heaven.

Hmm. I wonder if there are any other texts that pertain?

14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

Now why would the Apostle refer to sins being committed that were already 'taken away"?

Why does the Apostle say “he will be forgiven” (future tense) if this has already occurred?

so the translations done by multiple scholars is wrong…got it

Not all of them are, surely! And not every part of them are, surely!

Way to scapegoat your deficiencies

Have a heart, medwigel! those translators were doing the best they could with what they had! It is not fair to scapegoat them for missing the mark!

Besides, there is no deficiency in Scripture. I think you have forgotten, the New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.