Somebody claims the Catholic Church canonized heretics

[ddiemer.catholic]

My friend Greg, a baptized Roman Catholic, told me that many canonized Saints in the Catholic Church actually taught heresy. When I asked for Saints’ names, he provided St. Maximillian Kolbe and St. Alphonsus Ligouri.

I explained to him that the process of canonization precludes the possibility that the candidate believed, said, wrote, or taught anything contrary to the Bible, Tradition, or the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. His answer was basically, “That’s the process, but it’s not what actually happens.” In effect, even though the Church had such strict measures in place to ensure the heroic virtue of the candidate, in practice, they want this person to be a Saint, and so canonize him regardless of the individual’s beliefs, practices, teachings, writings, or other witnesses.

He insisted that St. Alphonsus taught non-biblical truths, especially found in The Glories of Mary, that he teaches things directly contrary to Jesus and the Bible. When I asked him for proof, he told me to read The Glories of Mary and pick any page, chapter, or paragraph and that would be sufficient proof. I told him that’s not how argumentation work: if he makes a claim, he must support his claim, not demand that I go hunting for his proof.

He became enraged that I wouldn’t read The Glories of Mary and hung up.

Aside from praying for him, what do you think I should do?

 

[MNathaniel]

I explained to him that the process of canonization precludes the possibility that anyone believed, said, wrote, or taught anything contrary to the Bible, Tradition, or the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

Oh, you were mistaken.

Canonization only means the Church is able to declare that a person definitely made it to heaven. It doesn’t mean the Church claims the person never held a mistaken belief.

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Hi MNathaniel.

Where was I mistaken? You didn’t leave me much to go on.

 

[ioannes_pius]

St. Alphonsus Ligouri.

My initial reaction to this is: LOL!

St. Alphonsus Liguori was declared a Doctor of the Church.

 

[FrankFletcher]

Hi MNathaniel.

Where was I mistaken? You didn’t leave me much to go on.

Actually he said it all: “Canonization only means the Church is able to declare that a person definitely made it to heaven. It doesn’t mean the Church claims the person never held a mistaken belief.” What aspect of this is confusing for you?

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Yeah, I mentioned that St. Alphonsus ranks right up there with St. Thérèse of Liseux, Teresa of Avila, Hildegard of Bingen, Catherine of Sienna, among many other greats, but that’s not proof regarding the intentional disregard of the Church for the “heresies” he claims Alphonsus or Maximillian wrote or believed.

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

A mistaken belief is one thing, for example, St. Thomas Aquinas didn’t think Mary was immaculately conceived(?), which was at that point in time, a theological belief, not de fide; but he’s talking about outright heresy, quite a difference.

Also, Canonization is the last step in a rather long process beginning with Venerable, Servant of God, Blessed (this declares a person to be in heaven), and then Saint. But the process is very involved, and completely examines a person’s entire life.

 

[FrankFletcher]

And he’s given you no evidence to support the claim. Why are you wasting time entertaining it?

 

[FrankFletcher]

And you might have a go at this, for starters, if you’re committed to engaging with your friend on this topic:

Is the Glories of Mary heretical? Apologetics

Lets look at the context: "He (God) has supreme dominion over all and also over Mary; nevertheless, it can always be said that for a time at least, when He was living in this world, He was pleased to humble himself and be subject to Mary. Says St. Ambrose, Jesus Christ having deigned to make Mary His Mother, inasmuch as He was her Son, He was truly obliged to obey her. And for this reason, says Richard of St. Laurence, "Of other Saints we say that they are with God; but of Mary alone can it be …

 

[Fauken]

Aside from praying for him, what do you think I should do?

Wait for him to cite a more specific grievance. It could be his understanding, after all, that paints those writings as heretical. Besides, I have a copy of “The Glories of Mary”, and it’s quite large. He’ll need to be more specific.

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Yeah, I thought about that, but that’s why I decided to come here, instead. If he wants to make a claim, I demanded proof to back up his claim, and that’s when he tried to put the burden on me to find the proof by reading The Glories of Mary. I refused and he got very angry.

 

[po18guy]

He is no friend if he wants you to walk away from Christ in the Eucharist.

Pray for him, as he is clearly not at peace.

 

[FrankFletcher]

Is this guy even a practicing Catholic?

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Yeah, he’s very, very pro-life. He and I went to the same parish in Raleigh, NC. BUT, I think he’s open to non-Catholic views, such as this, and not open to what the Catholic Church actually says. His thought process is that the process of canonization is corrupt because it’s run by sinful men, therefore, the Church has and does canonize heretics.

 

[Fauken]

His thought process is that the process of canonization is corrupt because it’s run by sinful men, therefore, the Church has and does canonize heretics.

Wait until he hears about how the canon of Scripture was compiled…

 

[FrankFletcher]

Yeah, he’s very, very pro-life. He and I went to the same parish in Raleigh, NC. BUT, I think he’s open to non-Catholic views, such as this, and not open to what the Catholic Church actually says. His thought process is that the process of canonization is corrupt because it’s run by sinful men, therefore, the Church has and does canonize heretics.

Is he familiar with the concept of miracles?

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Well, I’m not shaken in my faith or beliefs. He has very unique views and I think he’d rather believe what he believes than be convinced by the truth.

I’ll post another topic regarding Romans 8:28 for another one of his unique views.

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Yep! Believes them quite firmly.

 

[FrankFletcher]

Respectfully, no he doesn’t. That or he doesn’t understand the canonization process. Or both.

 

[ddiemer.catholic]

Remember, he’s dismissing the entire canonization process as a flawed procedure created by sinners who can and do make mistakes.

I suspect he may have deeper problems due to Pope Francis’ recent declarations, the on-going sex abuse crisis, our lackluster bishops, the malaise among the hierarchy to be shepherds, the refusal of the USCCB to denounce anti-Catholic beliefs by so-called “Catholic” politicians, etc.