Someone can lose their salvation?

[KingAlfred]

This post was taken from the Purgatory thread where it was getting off topic.

SIN can definitely cause us to lose our salvation. Of course the ultimate decision is God’s, but Judeo-Christian teaching makes that point, repeatedly.

 

[Cinette]

Guanophore and Randy; I understand what you said, which is an implicit insult to me; I decided to overlook the insult and focus on the actual phrase and add a little humor…so we would not get into a tid for tat. Can we please get onto the topic? Thanks.

Talk about insults!! You do nothing else!

 

[Cinette]

I have decided to BE SAVED
I am in the process of BEING SAVED
I hope to BE SAVED

But …

If I decide to commit MORTAL SIN that SEPARATES ME from GOD (BY MY CHOICE), then I CHOOSE not to BE SAVED.

We have the ASSURANCE but it boils down to our EARTHLY CHOICES.

In other words, our individual salvaltion is a daily work in progress!

Short and simple.

I don’t see the need to complicate this teaching. Our merciful God loved us so much that he took on human form and died on the cross to open Heaven wide for us. Jesus instructed us through his apostles, he founded His Church, he gave us his promise that he would guide us - he created the infrastructure for our happiness and salvation.

We have to O B E Y. We have to L O V E.

 

[NonCatholic]

Good reply.

I didn’t see in the Bible where James said “justified before men”. Perhaps you can cite the verse.

You must understand the context of the message, then it will be clear. I did site the passage, so will will have to look again through the threads. Finally, if that is not the correct interpretation, then one makes the Bible contradict itself.

Yes. The religion that Jesus founded. You claim to tell us the truth. The truth according to who? It is we who are telling YOU the truth, but you aren’t willing to listen.

According the the Bible.

 

[NonCatholic]

I was thinking about you NonCatholic and wondering what it is that makes you so bitter and full of hatred. You are full of venom. Some of the posters have bent over backwards for you and one would think that you would at least be polite but no you insult the Church, tell us that we do not worship God. I can’t imagine God being very supportive of your attitude.

Materiel has been very patient with you although sometimes it must be extremely difficult.

I don’t think you can be proud of your behaviour.

**
The pot calling the kettle black!** In fact, if the moderators were fair; then you would receive a penalty for this post; but I’m sure you won’t because they are not consistent.

The posters that you say “bent over backwards” are the one’s that we have good dialogue with. I guess that would depend on the definition of “good poster”.

As far as behavior is concerned, I have never been so insulted as I have in this forum; for example-you. It does very little for the Catholic community trying to act like Christians and give testimony of their faith. Anyone new that came here if they were to just follow all the comments I have received would wonder; what kind of people are these Catholics? Enough has been said on this and it is off topic. I pray that God will soften your heart.

 

[Church_Militant]

According the the Bible.

OK…so…“according to the Bible” where is it specifically stated that everything that Christians believe has to be found in the Bible? I don’t think you can provide such a citation, but please…knock yourself out. This is the fundamental error upon which all Protestantism and their modern post reformation step children basee their beliefs and since it is not scriptural itself, the entire doctrinal structure collapses upon closer inspection.

Even as this OSAS/Eternal Security, doctrine is likewise based upon it, but ignores the palin statement of Our Lord in Revelation 3:5] He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

One the one hand the New Testament teaches that all who are found written in teh Lamb’s Book of Life are saved and then here Jesus plainly tells us that those who do not persevere will have their names blotted out of that same book. If that isn’t loss of salvation then I don’t know what is.

 

[Pete_Holter]

As far as behavior is concerned, I have never been so insulted as I have in this forum; for example-you. It does very little for the Catholic community trying to act like Christians and give testimony of their faith. Anyone new that came here if they were to just follow all the comments I have received would wonder; what kind of people are these Catholics?

I am sorry that you have been insulted here.

I am also sorry for the tone of my posts towards Matariel and PJM. I was too aggressive. Will you both please forgive me?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

I really think you hit the nail on the head this time…

Since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What about you; have you received the arbitrator of the the Word?

The reason you have is the single biggiest reason why there are over 20,000+ Protestant denominations, congregations, gatherings, assemblies all proclaiming something different.

This evil fantasy that everyone is free to read this rather complex Book and come up with whatever meaning they want to - and then claim it is under the direction of the Holy Spirit - does not come from God.

You know, even lawyers have to pass the bar exam that identifies that know basic law before they go out and try to get creative with it. No so with individual intrepretation. In fact, such activity is directly condemned by the Inspired Word of God.

Maybe a refresher in 2Peter 1:20 “First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation…” is in order? Those that try this are simply falling into the deception of the Devil’s hands.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

The question, “Can someone lose their salvation?” is one of anxiety. It seeks the confidence of knowing that one is saved. Only if that confidence can be surely attained can one begin to wonder about its permanence and whether that can be lost.

You can never know with surety that you are “saved.” You can never know that you are saved; and you must know this before you can begin to imagine that you are “lost”.

No man or woman has the power to say who is “saved” and who is “lost”. We cannot discern these things, but trust God.

I agree. I think the whole OSAS philosophy is really based in fear, and lack of tolerance for the anxiety that is inherent in this world. With such a approach, one does not need to “hope”.

It is akin to Luthers’s “grace alone by faith alone”. One need not be fearful of one’s personal failings disrupting their eternal life, ,since their actions have no impact.

Jesus did not give us a spirit of fear, however, but of power, love, and discipline. When we walk by the spirit, we do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. Those in the flesh cannot see God.

 

[guanophore]

You must understand the context of the message, then it will be clear. I did site the passage, so will will have to look again through the threads.

I will provide the verse in question:

James 2:20-23
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.

Now, we know that Abraham was not before men at this time.

Gen 22:3-6
3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and set out and went to the place in the distance that God had shown him. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place far away. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the boy and I will go over there; we will worship, and then we will come back to you.”

The young men he travelled with were left below. There were no “men” before Abraham needed to be justified. It was between himself, and his God, as is all justification. God is not concerned about us being justified before men. As the Apostle teaches:

1 Cor 4:2-3
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself.

The addition of “before men” is a modern innovation, created to support a different gospel from what the Apostles taught.

Finally, if that is not the correct interpretation, then one makes the Bible contradict itself.

No, the only thing that is contradictory is your interpretation.

According to the Bible.

No, according to your interpretation of it. You are reading it with Reformed glasses.

**
The pot calling the kettle black!** In fact, if the moderators were fair; then you would receive a penalty for this post; but I’m sure you won’t because they are not consistent.

She is making a observation on your behavior.

The mods are consistent, but the rules here are biased to favor Catholicism. We are allowed to evangelize here, you are not. I agree that it is biased, but if you want something unbiased you are on the wrong site.

You are required to respect our faith here. You have failed to do so many times, therefore, you are in violation of the forum rules.

As far as behavior is concerned, I have never been so insulted as I have in this forum; for example-you.  It does very little for the Catholic community trying to act like Christians and give testimony of their faith.  Anyone new that came here if they were to just follow all the comments I have received would wonder; what kind of people are these Catholics?

I agree. the Apologetics forum gets especially brutal.

I pray that God will soften your heart.

May He do so to all of us! It will not matter, though, if we are not elect, will it? Why pray at all? God will save who He saves, and destroy those vessels fit for wrath! He will harden the hearts of those He will harden? No sense wasting breath on prayer, is there?

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by PJM
This passage simply affirms and confirms that God knows everything before it happens.

reply

That is a major error on your part.

Are we to understand that God does not know everything before hand? We understand that God is All powerful and all knowing. Is He not?

Originally Posted by PJM
It does NOT SAY that God causes it to happen. Only that He God permits us to decide FOR OURSELVES, if we will go to heaven or to hell. Us !!! Not God

Reply:

The problem is that you look at it from a fallen human perspective and do not chose to see God’s perspective. We all fall into that error sometimes; the key is to learn from our errors.

Friend, we certainly agree on that point. But does it only apply to those who do not agree with you

A little word study for you and anyone else:

**keyword: “foreknew”
searchgodsword.org/desk/?..Perform+Search**We can go on and on, but there is enough here that any remaining doubts should be erased as to what the Bible teaches. If anyone thinks they control their own salvation, then one must first deny what the Bible teaches, then try to work your way to heaven.]/

My dear friend in our Lord Jesus Christ,

I have limited time, but I did as you suggested and pulled your definitation for “foreknew”:

"Rom 8:29 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Indeed this is true. But how does this transformation occur? By Christian Baptism, Obedience to His Commandments, and following the Beautitudes Other wise, why did Jesus tell us (COMMAND) us to follow them?

Your argument is not only anti-biblical, it seems to lack logic as to the common understanding of the the Very Natures (plural) of God.

God is and MUST be, has to be, everything Good. Agreed?

So among other manifestations of God’s Goodness, He is (must be) all Loving and all Just (Fair), correct?

So why is humanity the only earthly Creation to have a mind, intellect, freewill and a soul? There has to be a God given purpose for this, for God is also, All Wise and All Perfect. Agreed?

Ro 11:2 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in {the passage about} Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?"

Again we are in agreement (partially).

God has not rejected His people (us )

But here is a word search for you.

Google “dictionary,”
Select Marriam Webster and search: “**reedemption” **and then search “salvation” (especially the 3td. defination)

Friend, they are not synomous terms

Christ **did **Redeem us, praise the Lord! Amen.

And it is also true that Christ is our “Savior” as in the one who CAN **save **us.

But to answer my eariler question, God in His All Perfect Goodness, gives Humanity the opportunity and the choice to accept or reject Salvation, out of Perfect Love and Perfect Fairness (Justice)

Nahum Chapter 1:2 The LORD is a jealous God and avenging, the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger and of great might, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty."

2 Tim 4: "
1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ **Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, **and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 5 As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. "

My dear friend, why would Christ **“Judge” “ALL” **of us if there were not a specific criteria, as defined by Him, to be Judged on? Simply not logical!

"17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. ***If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

The bible was and is a Catholic Book, indeed the intire New Testament was written by RC’s. The Authors of the book are the only ones able to explain it’s proper meaning.

You may be in danger because you wish to do as you wish, to translate as you wish, and most spiritually dangerous of all, you choose to pick only biblical verses that you think support your position. Again I remind you of the Word of God in 2 Tim. 3:16.

 

[NonCatholic]

Hi, NonCatholic,

I really think you hit the nail on the head this time…

The reason you have is the single biggiest reason why there are over 20,000+ Protestant denominations, congregations, gatherings, assemblies all proclaiming something different.

This evil fantasy that everyone is free to read this rather complex Book and come up with whatever meaning they want to - and then claim it is under the direction of the Holy Spirit - does not come from God.

You know, even lawyers have to pass the bar exam that identifies that know basic law before they go out and try to get creative with it. No so with individual intrepretation. In fact, such activity is directly condemned by the Inspired Word of God.

Maybe a refresher in 2Peter 1:20 “First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation…” is in order? Those that try this are simply falling into the deception of the Devil’s hands.

God bless

Conveniently you left out the context of the Scripture, one of the devil’s favorite tricks. See the temptation of Jesus.
2 Peter 1:19-21 19 {So} we have the prophetic word {made} more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is {a matter} of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Pay attention to what? Are you part of the men/women? Moved by Who? You sound like a broken record with the 30k, 60k and growing denomination thing. God keeps His own and His own hear His voice; He has always kept a remnant and I doubt God is a respecter of denominations…do you? One of the things that many Catholics in this forum see to fail to understand is that God works one heart at a time; not by the group…you do well to pay attention.

 

[Cinette]

Repeating the same accusations when such documentation does not exist … at least in this thread … is disingenious. No one has put words in your mouth yet you seem to do this … while not always … frequently.

If you want to make the thread productive … avoid those baseless accusations. If they are made … point them out … but if they don’t exist … don’t accuse the posters.

I don’t think I am avoiding the issue … my issue is not even so much with your theology … though I don’t agree with it but when you continually accuse Catholics of a belief they have over and over again said does not exist. The pre-conceived notions you entered this discussion with are not what we Catholics believe … and as such it seems, at least to me, a certain amount of frustration whelms you because those notions are not to be found here.

I do not know what interactions you have had with Catholics in the past but if you choose not to believe as Catholics believe … then base your decision on what we really believe and teach, not from what you may have been led to believe.

This particular forum exists specifically to discuss these differences … not to discuss … discuss, bash Catholicism in general … discuss, discuss … bash.

In the end, if you choose to agree to disagree then at least you can, in the future, disagree from Catholic belief rather than Catholic fiction.

*Absolutely! *

 

[NonCatholic]

reply

Are we to understand that God does not know everything before hand? We understand that God is All powerful and all knowing. Is He not?

Reply:

Friend, we certainly agree on that point. But does it only apply to those who do not agree with you

My dear friend in our Lord Jesus Christ,

I have limited time, but I did as you suggested and pulled your definitation for “foreknew”:

Indeed this is true. But how does this transformation occur? By Christian Baptism, Obedience to His Commandments, and following the Beautitudes Other wise, why did Jesus tell us (COMMAND) us to follow them?

Your argument is not only anti-biblical, it seems to lack logic as to the common understanding of the the Very Natures (plural) of God.

God is and MUST be, has to be, everything Good. Agreed?

So among other manifestations of God’s Goodness, He is (must be) all Loving and all Just (Fair), correct?

So why is humanity the only earthly Creation to have a mind, intellect, freewill and a soul? There has to be a God given purpose for this, for God is also, All Wise and All Perfect. Agreed?

Again we are in agreement (partially).

God has not rejected His people (us )

But here is a word search for you.

Google “dictionary,”
Select Marriam Webster and search: “**reedemption” **and then search “salvation” (especially the 3td. defination)

Friend, they are not synomous terms

Christ **did **Redeem us, praise the Lord! Amen.

And it is also true that Christ is our “Savior” as in the one who CAN **save **us.

But to answer my eariler question, God in His All Perfect Goodness, gives Humanity the opportunity and the choice to accept or reject Salvation, out of Perfect Love and Perfect Fairness (Justice)

Nahum Chapter 1:2 The LORD is a jealous God and avenging, the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. 3 The LORD is slow to anger and of great might, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty."

2 Tim 4: "
1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ **Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, **and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2 preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. 5 As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry. "

My dear friend, why would Christ **“Judge” “ALL” **of us if there were not a specific criteria, as defined by Him, to be Judged on? Simply not logical!

"17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. ***If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

The bible was and is a Catholic Book, indeed the intire New Testament was written by RC’s. The Authors of the book are the only ones able to explain it’s proper meaning.

You may be in danger because you wish to do as you wish, to translate as you wish, and most spiritually dangerous of all, you choose to pick only biblical verses that you think support your position. Again I remind you of the Word of God in 2 Tim. 3:16.

Your definition of God’s justice is not God’s definition and your view of salvation is not God’s as you provided proof above. The Bible says those that are justified before Him escape the judgment. There are two judgments; one for the damned to determine and probably convict, then penalize by degree. then, there is the Bema judgment; the judgment of the works of the redeemed for reward.

 

[Cinette]

**
The pot calling the kettle black!** In fact, if the moderators were fair; then you would receive a penalty for this post; but I’m sure you won’t because they are not consistent.If what I am say is a lie then they should indeed penalise me - but I am stating a fact. You call others bitter when you are the one who is bitter. You do not like your own medicine obviously.

The posters that you say “bent over backwards” are the one’s that we have good dialogue with. You don’t dialogue - you refute everything and keep telling Catholics what they believe even when they tell you that it is not what they believe. Is that fair exchange? I guess that would depend on the definition of “good poster”.

As far as behavior is concerned, I have never been so insulted as I have in this forum; for example-you. You are insulted by the truth!! It does very little for the Catholic community trying to act like Christians and give testimony of their faith. Anyone new that came here New? I am been on this thread from the very beginning and have read every post. I have purposefully not participated because of experience of your attitudes on other threads. Also the fact that one cannot advance in any discussion with you. I tend to agree with posters who believe that you are more than one person because of your inconsistency. if they were to just follow all the comments I have received would wonder; what kind of people are these Catholics? I have never in my entire life had any argument with a nonCatholic until I came to CAF. I guess that the anonymity helps but when one is consistently told what we believe (we should *know *what we believe) and arguments made based on what it is alleged we believe, they my blood boils (this is something I have to work on - to learn patience with those who falsely accuse us). Enough has been said on this and it is off topic.If you change your attitude there would be no need for these exchanges. There comes a time when we must defend ourselves against those who insult us and tell us that our prayers are useless and that our “god” is not God. Because this what you have said! I pray that God will soften your heart.

I pray that God will open your mind and your heart.

 

[NonCatholic]

I am sorry that you have been insulted here.

I am also sorry for the tone of my posts towards Matariel and PJM. I was too aggressive. Will you both please forgive me?

I, also am sorry because I have also said things that I should have held back. I forgive you. I will say that I don’t get that offended because I expect it considering the topics and the turf.

 

[NonCatholic]

I pray that God will open your mind and your heart.

Congratulations; you have just proved the point again.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

Looks like you are back to your old ways again: childish whining and unsubstantiated accusations.

Thanks for being thoughtful; but I do not need that prayer. I tell you the truth, but none of you listen to the truth because you are steeped into religion. But as some have suggested; that would be another thread. If it is the same God; He will reveal that in His time. But my God says one can’t be loosed from His hand.

All prayers go to God - and He is the One Who makes the determination and how those prayers will be answered. The Bible tells us of the need for a humble and contrite heart (Ps 51:17) - and all you have demonstrated is arrogance and insults.

And, when it comes to God’s revelation - you are holding it right in your hands. Just read the words and pray to God for understanding from the Books identified, assembled and compiled by the CC into what we now call the Bible.

Try just a little harder… it is really what is necessary for maturity in Christ to take root.

God bless

 

[alanjeddy]

Can someone help me out? I have engaged in friendly apologetic debate with some Protestant friends who insist that we are all saved by the salvific act of Jesus’ death on the cross. That we are all justified by faith alone, Sola Fide.

Then I ask them let’s turn to Matthew 25:31-46, extremly important passages of the bible. Our final test, our final judgement. I tell them that we must put our faith to work for if we do not reach out in selfless love to our neighbors in need of our charity then we are leaving Christ unattended. For if we do not do it to the least of His brethren then we are not doing it to Christ. We have to put our faith to work. For in Matthew 25, faith alone, Sola Fide is not how are Lord is asking us to respond to all those in need of our true Christian charity.

Christ death on the cross is the ultimate sacrfice. Laying down one’s life for another. Christ’s death reconciles us to the Father and creates a bridge to heaven. But it does not guarantee our salvation. God is Love and His mercy is an unending ocean. God is also Devine Justice. Our conversion is not a one time event. It is a daily process of reconversion. Christianity is not a spectator sport.

 

[NonCatholic]

Hi, NonCatholic,

Looks like you are back to your old ways again: childish whining and unsubstantiated accusations.

All prayers go to God - and He is the One Who makes the determination and how those prayers will be answered. The Bible tells us of the need for a humble and contrite heart (Ps 51:17) - and all you have demonstrated is arrogance and insults.

And, when it comes to God’s revelation - you are holding it right in your hands. Just read the words and pray to God for understanding from the Books identified, assembled and compiled by the CC into what we now call the Bible.

Try just a little harder… it is really what is necessary for maturity in Christ to take root.

God bless

Does God hear the prayer of the righteous or unrighteous or both?

All prayers go to God? I have seen many in this forum go to Mary of the Catholic Church; perhaps you meant all of your prayers go to God, that would be good. You also have proven my point like Cinnett; I’m glad you are not representative of the majority of the kind and thought provoking Catholics I have met here.