Someone can lose their salvation?

[guanophore]

Never heard that phrase before.

I think it is a reaction against “organized religion”. It is an overcompensation in the opposite direction.

See my God has a body of individuals; that together forms a church; little “c”.

Yes, but it is His intention that we be members one of another, and that we have an awareness that one part of the Body affects all other parts of the Body. The notion that you would have to share His Body with Catholics seems to gall you.

The Church is much more than the body of believers here on earth. What makes the church infallible is not the humanity of it, but the Divinity of it. The Head of the Body is Christ, and the Soul of the Church is the HS. It is these divine elements that make her infallible.

Just as Paul wrote about marriage being a model of Christ and His Church, so Christ and His Bride are not separated from one another.

Eph 5:25-31

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body.

We are members one of another, and the Church is without blemish and holy.

As I said before; your god is not my God.

Yes, you have implied that we are children of the devil.

However, I think that, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus you are full of zeal and faith, but just do not recognize Him. And, like Apollos, you have only part of the truth.

We are way off topic; we see things from two different perspectives from the same gospel; which means I see one God of the Bible and you see one God of the Church. It is not personal; it’s a difference understanding, which one day will be revealed.

Except that, for me, there is no difference between the God of the Church, and the God of the Bible, since both reflections of Himself come from the same Source. Both are God breathed, and are expressions of Himself.

You have been taught to believe a number of falsehoods about the Catholic faith. One of these is in the OP. Catholics believe that our salvation is not attained in this life. We embrace the attitude encouraged by the Apostles in this matter.

Phil 3:12-16

Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Never heard that phrase before.

Then you should review your personal profile. There you wrote:

“no ‘religion’ Personal relationship with Jesus”

Now, compare what you wrote with “Just me and Jesus”…that’s close enough for government work.

 

[Matariel]

…As I said before; your god is not my God.

Well, why don’t you start a thread and back up this strange accusation…? I would be happy to participate in it.

 

[NonCatholic]

I think it is a reaction against “organized religion”. It is an overcompensation in the opposite direction.

Yes, but it is His intention that we be members one of another, and that we have an awareness that one part of the Body affects all other parts of the Body. The notion that you would have to share His Body with Catholics seems to gall you.

The Church is much more than the body of believers here on earth. What makes the church infallible is not the humanity of it, but the Divinity of it. The Head of the Body is Christ, and the Soul of the Church is the HS. It is these divine elements that make her infallible.

Just as Paul wrote about marriage being a model of Christ and His Church, so Christ and His Bride are not separated from one another.

Eph 5:25-31

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word, 27 so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind — yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way, husbands should love their wives as they do their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hates his own body, but he nourishes and tenderly cares for it, just as Christ does for the church, 30 because we are members of his body.

We are members one of another, and the Church is without blemish and holy.

Yes, you have implied that we are children of the devil.

I believe, based on the Bible, the Catholic Church and its disciples are making the same mistake as the Jews of Jesus day did and for many of the same reasons. You disagree; so we agree to disagree, but all of you feel the same about my beliefs.

However, I think that, like the disciples on the road to Emmaus you are full of zeal and faith, but just do not recognize Him. And, like Apollos, you have only part of the truth.

Except that, for me, there is no difference between the God of the Church, and the God of the Bible, since both reflections of Himself come from the same Source. Both are God breathed, and are expressions of Himself.

That is the big difference.

You have been taught to believe a number of falsehoods about the Catholic faith. One of these is in the OP. Catholics believe that our salvation is not attained in this life. We embrace the attitude encouraged by the Apostles in this matter.

I have not been taught by men; I can see from Scripture. Most of what I know about the Church has come from this forum. I did have some preconceptions, but they have either been corrected or confirmed, but there is a lot more to know.

Phil 3:12-16

Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained.

Amen!

 

[NonCatholic]

Then you should review your personal profile. There you wrote:

“no ‘religion’ Personal relationship with Jesus”

Now, compare what you wrote with “Just me and Jesus”…that’s close enough for government work.

I work for the government…LOL Like I said; I had never heard that phrase before; should I lie and say I have?

 

[Matariel]

I work for the government…LOL Like I said; I had never heard that phrase before; should I lie and say I have?

He was talking about a mentality, not a phrase.

 

[guanophore]

I work for the government…LOL Like I said; I had never heard that phrase before; should I lie and say I have?

No need! Your actions are saying it loud and clear. Your description of yourself in your profile is a perfect example.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I work for the government…LOL Like I said; I had never heard that phrase before; should I lie and say I have?

Nope…you should just be honest enough to admit that the obvious similarity in these two phrases is close enough for you to have understood what was meant.

Clearly, the sentiment, if not the specific words, is familiar to you.

 

[NonCatholic]

He was talking about a mentality, not a phrase.

You come across as a bitter person.

 

[NonCatholic]

No need! Your actions are saying it loud and clear. Your description of yourself in your profile is a perfect example.

Guanophore and Randy; I understand what you said, which is an implicit insult to me; I decided to overlook the insult and focus on the actual phrase and add a little humor…so we would not get into a tid for tat. Can we please get onto the topic? Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

Well, why don’t you start a thread and back up this strange accusation…? I would be happy to participate in it.

I started a new thread for this.

Guanophore and Randy; I understand what you said, which is an implicit insult to me; I decided to overlook the insult and focus on the actual phrase and add a little humor…so we would not get into a tid for tat. Can we please get onto the topic? Thanks.

I am not trying to insult you, Non. I am trying to point out what I see. Jesus did not intend for us to function in a bubble of individuality. I am not accusing you of absorbing this mentality maliciously. I think in part is is an outgrowth of american fundamentalism because America is founded on the principles of individuality. Look at the philosophy around our foundations. “Don’t Tread On Me”. It is an “I me me mine” culture.

The reason this is related to the topic is thatJesus does not separate salvation from the church. Jesus and HIs body are united in betrothal. That is why salvation comes through the Church. When one separates himself from the Church, one risks failing to finish the race.

 

[guanophore]

I believe, based on the Bible, the Catholic Church and its disciples are making the same mistake as the Jews of Jesus day did and for many of the same reasons. You disagree; so we agree to disagree, but all of you feel the same about my beliefs.

Actually, I don’t think you do know how I feel about your beliefs.


I have been careful not to let my feelings into the conversation.
I did share some feelings about something you did…

Your assessment of CAtholicism is based on your perceptions of what you have read in the Bible. Clearly your perceptions have been strongly influenced by Reformed Protestant Theology, whether you know this or not.

That is the big difference.

That you do not believe the Catholic Church is God breathed, and has its Source in God?

Phil 3:12-16
Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained.

 Amen!

If you believe what Paul is saying here about what constitutes a mature attitude, and you can give your “amen”, then why do you cling to that newfangled OSAS mythology?

Also, why would it be necessary to “hold fast” if one could not fall way?

 

[Matariel]

You come across as a bitter person.

What’re you talking about? I was trying to clarify another poster’s intentions and you call that bitter?

I started a new thread for this.

Okay, then.

 

[mackbrislawn]

That’s because one overlooks the sovereignty of God in drawing the “called” to Himself.

Possibly. Although in this case scripture needn’t be involved.

 

[PJM]

Over recent centuries, this has been reduced to the least common denominator of “pre-destination” This, despite the scripture which says:

1 Timothy 2:3-5 “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

Pre-destination says that you are doomed if you are doomed, no matter what, and vice-versa. Since we have no way of knowing this, why even try? And, if we somehow know that we are destined to Heaven, why not just launch into a life of sin, since you can neither gain Heaven nor lose hell? I don’t get it either.

Knowingly or unknowingly, “pre-destination” is but an pernicious myth advocated by the unknowing on the unsuspecting.

Romans Chapter 8: "28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 **And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. **

What does this mean?

First, it does not mean that God has selected from all time those who He is going to save"

How can we know this? Because such an action wouild nullify and impede our “intellect and feewills.” That would be an abomination" to the very Nature of God.

Let us recall that God is “Everything Good”, so He is All powerful, all knowing, loving, kind, merciful, just and All wise.

Being all wise and all knowing, and given the fact that “TIME” as we understand it, does not apply to God, who WAS, IS and ALWAYS will be, so; (2 Peter 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, **not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." **

This passage simply affirms and confirms that God knows everything before it happens.

**It does NOT SAY that God causes it to happen. Only that He God permits us to decide FOR OURSELVES, if we will go to heaven or to hell. Us !!! Not God:thumbsup: **

 

[soccermom]

I have decided to BE SAVED
I am in the process of BEING SAVED
I hope to BE SAVED

But …

If I decide to commit MORTAL SIN that SEPARATES ME from GOD (BY MY CHOICE), then I CHOOSE not to BE SAVED.

We have the ASSURANCE but it boils down to our EARTHLY CHOICES.

In other words, our individual salvaltion is a daily work in progress!

 

[NonCatholic]

Knowingly or unknowingly, “pre-destination” is but an pernicious myth advocated by the unknowing on the unsuspecting.

Romans Chapter 8: "28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 **And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. **

What does this mean?

First, it does not mean that God has selected from all time those who He is going to save"

How can we know this? Because such an action wouild nullify and impede our “intellect and feewills.” That would be an abomination" to the very Nature of God.

Let us recall that God is “Everything Good”, so He is All powerful, all knowing, loving, kind, merciful, just and All wise.

Being all wise and all knowing, and given the fact that “TIME” as we understand it, does not apply to God, who WAS, IS and ALWAYS will be, so; (2 Peter 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, **not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." **

This passage simply affirms and confirms that God knows everything before it happens.

That is a major error on your part.

**It does NOT SAY that God causes it to happen. Only that He God permits us to decide FOR OURSELVES, if we will go to heaven or to hell. Us !!! Not God:thumbsup: **

The problem is that you look at it from a fallen human perspective and do not chose to see God’s perspective. We all fall into that error sometimes; the key is to learn from our errors.

A little word study for you and anyone else:
keyword: "foreknew"
searchgodsword.org/desk/?l=en&query=foreknew&section=0&translation=nas&sr=1&Enter=Perform+Search

keyword “predestined”:
searchgodsword.org/desk/?query=predestined&section=0&translation=nas&resources=1&l=en

keyword "elect"
searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=elect&section=0&translation=nas&oq=predestined&new=1

keyword "chose"
searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=chose&section=2&translation=nas&oq=chose&new=1

keyword "chosen"
searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=chosen&section=2&translation=nas&oq=chose&new=1

We can go on and on, but there is enough here that any remaining doubts should be erased as to what the Bible teaches. If anyone thinks they control their own salvation, then one must first deny what the Bible teaches, then try to work your way to heaven.

 

[Matariel]

We can go on and on, but there is enough here that any remaining doubts should be erased as to what the Bible teaches. If anyone thinks they control their own salvation, then one must first deny what the Bible teaches, then try to work your way to heaven.

No, the Bible doesn’t not say we are puppets of God. It also clearly speaks of falling away from salvation and other such things.

 

[ncgolf]

We all fall into that error sometimes

hmm … how would you know?

If anyone thinks they control their own salvation, then one must first deny what the Bible teaches, then try to work your way to heaven.

Please post any posting in this thread where that is stated. Did anyone write “they control their own salvation” or “we work our way to heaven”. If so please cite … otherwise I consider this to be a bearing of false witness … a breaking of one of the 10 commandments.

 

[Pete_Holter]

**It does NOT SAY that God causes it to happen. Only that He God permits us to decide FOR OURSELVES, if we will go to heaven or to hell. Us !!! Not God:thumbsup: **

Greetings PJM,

Jesus reminds you, “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16). “Let these words sink into your ears… You did not choose me, but I chose you” (Luke 9:44; John 15:16).

“The enemy of grace presses on and urges in all ways to make us believe that grace is given according to our deservings, and thus grace is no more grace; and are we unwilling to say what we can say by the testimony of Scripture? Do we fear, forsooth, to offend by our speaking him who is not able to receive the truth? and are we not afraid lest by our silence he who can receive the truth may be involved in falsehood?” (St. Augustine, The Gift of Perseverance).

With the love of Christ,
Pete