Someone can lose their salvation?

[NonCatholic]

Regarding Bible understanding, Bercot makes this commentary:

"We Bible-believing Christians today generally think that we are following apostolic Christianity. The early Christians thought they were, too. Yet, as we’ve seen, our beliefs and practices vary considerably from theirs. So how can we know which one of us is more closely following the pattern set by the apostles?
"A tempting but simplistic solution is to say, ‘Let’s simply compare their beliefs and ours to what the Bible teaches.’ The problem is that the early Christians based their beliefs on the Bible–the same as we do. They quoted the Scriptures to support their beliefs, the same as we do. The most we can do is to compare their interpretations of Scripture with our interpretations of Scripture. And that in itself doesn’t prove very much.
“So the question becomes: Whose interpretation is more likely to be correct–ours or theirs?”

Yes, I would not disagree with the statement that unless one has received the Holy Spirit all the reading in the world is of no avail.

However, a conundrum arises in that to learn of the Holy Spirit, and then to receive Him, you need to have first read. But you can’t understand what you read until you have received the Holy Spirit! Your reading is of no avail!

Sounds like a catch-22.

That’s because one overlooks the sovereignty of God in drawing the “called” to Himself.

 

[NonCatholic]

Oh, and the relationship between sanctification and justification… Understanding by the words, “counted to him as righteousness,” the external imputation of Christ’s righteousness fails for me because these same words are used in Psalm 106 regarding Phinehas’ righteous deed: “Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed. And that was counted to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever” (vv 30-31).
When I put these two texts together, the only thing that makes sense to me is to believe that the righteousness that is “counted” to us is a work of God in us, an infused righteousness.

Also, there is much debate about James 2. We do not have to wonder what James is saying because we have other Scripture to interpret for us the words that he uses, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God” (vv. 22-23). What does it mean “completed by his works” and “the Scripture was fulfilled”? For Catholics, it means that Abraham was “found faithful *when tested, and it was counted to him as righteousness? *” (1 Macc 2:52; cf. Heb 11:17: “By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac…”). When was Abraham’s faith counted to him as righteousness? When he offered up his beloved son! And so we necessarily conclude that, for James, justification unto salvation is in view.

According to Hebrews 11, the faith of Abraham was pleasing to God when “he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise” (vv 8-9). If justification is a one-time event, then this poses a serious dilemma. Catholic apologists often point this out, and I think that it is a good point to make. These verses are describing Abraham’s condition in Genesis chapter 12. But the justification of Abraham that Paul picks up on in Romans 4 deals with his state in Genesis chapter 15. How could he be living by a faith that is held out to Christians as one commended to us if he was not already justified by that faith in Genesis 12? And yet, if justification is a one-time event, then he was not justified until Genesis 15. This strongly suggests to me, if not proves, that Abraham grew in his justification before God, from Genesis 12 forward, as he offered his “members to God as instruments for righteousness” and became a slave “of obedience, which leads to righteousness” (Rom 6:13; 16). All of this of course being “the free gift of God”! (Rom 6:23)

All of these passages suggest to me that justification is a process over the course of our lives, and that the basis of this justification is “the righteousness of God that depends on faith” (Phil 3:9) that God works in us: “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27).

With the love of Christ,
Pete

Thanks Pete for the response; I appreciate that.

The problem I have with the Genesis and Hebrews argument presented above is that the words “faith”, “justification” and “righteousness” have been blended in a way that takes separate thoughts and blends them together.

We know that if there is an apparent contradiction or misunderstanding, then it is us and not the Scripture. So, let’s look at what the Bible say about justification.

Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been** justified by faith,** we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him.

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be **justified by faith in Christ **and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

It is evident that a righteous man lives by faith and the faith that is in Christ, justifies us before God.

James 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?”

Justified before men; not God-this is often overlooked and misunderstood. One of the reason Luther called James an epistle of straw. Same thing with Rehab.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again, the same argument. Justified before men; not God. James whole point is to point out anyone can “say” they have faith, and many claim that faith but have absolutely no evidence of it before men; whereas the one with true faith will be seen by men because of their works. This is why James made the monumental statement in James 2:18 But someone may {well} say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

 

[Matariel]

Is this Catholic? Do you actually believe that?

Um, it happens to be Church history. Haven’t you read the writings of the early bishops and apologists of the Church?

Learn something new everyday…thanks.

Never even heard of “Holy Mysteries”? learned two new things…thanks again.

Holy Mysteries is another name for the Holy Sacraments.

:banghead: uch: :dts: :ehh:

Why do you use emoticons with no text? Have you no rebuttal? Why don’t you respond with normal words and not random emoticons…?

Since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What about you; have you received the arbitrator of the the Word?

I didn’t say “arbitrator”, I said “arbiter”, and the arbiter of truth, faith, and morals is the Catholic Church, through the Councils, Magisterium, and Pope Benedict XVI, the successor of St. Peter.

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the [local] churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

 

[NonCatholic]

Cute.

Rather than simply posting stupid emoticons, why don’t you actually interact with the material presented.

Let me make this easy…just answer this question: What is wrong with what I posted concerning justification?

Nothing I guess. I was asking a specific person because of what they specifically said. Nothing personal, we have previously spoken with each other on this issue…I believe. I know anyone can rely to a post, but I was really interested in knowing their thought…again nothing personal.

 

[NonCatholic]

I didn’t say “arbitrator”, I said “arbiter”, and the **arbiter of truth, faith, and morals is the Catholic Church, through the Councils, Magisterium, and Pope Benedict XVI, the successor of St. Peter.
**
]

I’m glad I do not worship your god. The arbiter of truth, faith and morals is Jesus; my God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If you don’t mind and Steve doesn’t mind, share the e-mail with us.

Here is the exchange I had tonight with Steve…he’s obviously travelling and his response was understandably brief.

Just landed. Except for your observation that Jamnia neither solidified or removed books,your comments hit the bullseye. Good work.

Sent from Steve Ray’s iPhone www.JerusalemJones.com

Steve-

In a forum discussion, I recently made the following statement:

Timothy was a Greek, and the Old Testament that he would have been familiar with from the time of his youth was the Septuagint. Therefore, in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul is specifically telling Timothy to continue in what he had learned from the Septuagint, and of course, the Septuagint contains seven books that Martin Luther did not like because they contain passages that support distinctly Catholic doctrines like praying for the dead and purgatory. Consequently, while the Greek Septuagint was known to Jesus, Paul and Timothy, modern Protestants insist upon using an Old Testament that was altered by the removal of books (such as Maccabees and others) at the Council of Jamnia in 90 A.D. Unfortunately, Jamnia was not a real council; it was a meeting of rabbis, and their decision concerning the canon wasn’t binding on all of Judaism.

This leads to a couple of obvious questions: “Why would the Holy Spirit be guiding a group of rabbis around 90 A.D. when there was already a Christian Church in existence that was under His infallible guidance as Jesus promised? And why should the hastily drawn-up and not universally binding Hebrew canon trump the Church’s common use of the Septuagint that had continued for over fifteen centuries? Luther picked that truncated canon for the same reason the rabbis did: To reject specific teachings that were in the new Christian faith that was spreading so rapidly, the Catholic faith.

I then provided a link to your article from This Rock, “The Council that Wasn’t”. catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea4.asp

Someone astutely observed that your article disputes my claim because you stated that Jabneh did not remove any books from the OT canon.

In this, I am confident that you are right, and that I misspoke; however, do you have any thoughts thoughts on my comments above?

Randy Carson

 

[Matariel]

I’m glad I do not worship your god.

What…! You don’t worship the holy Trinity, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

The arbiter of truth, faith and morals is Jesus; my God.

He is represented here on Earth by His Body, the holy Catholic Church, and He reveals truth to her and guides her “even until the end of the world”.

 

[NonCatholic]

What…! You don’t worship the holy Trinity, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

I said I don’t worship your god.

He is represented here on Earth by His Body, the holy Catholic Church, and He reveals truth to her and guides her “even until the end of the world”.

Nope, not my God either.

 

[Matariel]

I said I don’t worship your god.

Well, now you’re just being uncharitable. You know very well that we Catholics worship the same God-- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (You do realize, by the way, that the doctrine of the holy Trinity was defined by the Catholic Church…)

Nope, not my God either.

To pretend that we worship a different Deity is just grasping at insults. We worship God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three Hypostasis (or Persons) in on God, just as most Protestant sects do. So I believe this is a tactic at being uncharitable?

The God I worshipped when I was a Protestant fundamentalist is the same God I worship now as a Catholic.

Anyway, without uncharitibility, let’s get back on track-- Someone Can Lose Their Salvation? is the thread topic.

 

[ncgolf]

I said I don’t worship your god.

The God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Moses and Isaiah??? If you want to make a claim like that then start a thread … don’t throw out immature comments without the common courtesy of explaining.

I think it would be an interesting thread if you started out by saying “Catholics don’t worship the God of the Bible”, because that is what you are saying. That is putting your money where your typing is.

If you don’t then I take this as the petulant actions of someone who reminds me of when we were all small … and if things didn’t go his way … took his ball home.

 

[Cinette]

Gosh what is the point of this discussion except to give yourselves a hernia!

You have stated the truth. NonCatholic is not interested in the truth. God gave him free will and his answer is NO.

So, we can pray for NonCatholic.

Best thing to do.

Cheers

 

[NonCatholic]

Gosh what is the point of this discussion except to give yourselves a hernia!

You have stated the truth. NonCatholic is not interested in the truth. God gave him free will and his answer is NO.

So, we can pray for NonCatholic.

Best thing to do.

Cheers

Thanks for being thoughtful; but I do not need that prayer. I tell you the truth, but none of you listen to the truth because you are steeped into religion. But as some have suggested; that would be another thread. If it is the same God; He will reveal that in His time. But my God says one can’t be loosed from His hand.

 

[guanophore]

It is evident that a righteous man lives by faith and the faith that is in Christ, justifies us before God.

Yes.

James 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?”

Justified before men; not God-this is often overlooked and misunderstood. One of the reason Luther called James an epistle of straw. Same thing with Rehab.

I have heard this false rendering before from the Reformed. What seems to get missed is that Abraham had no “men” with him before whom to be justified. He deliberately left all the servants and companions below, so that He would be alone on the mountain with God, and His Son (who probably thought his father was demented).

Further, references to Abraham and Rahab’s actions elsewhere make it clear that it was their actions, emanating from faith, that justified them. Faith does justify, but it is not separated from the actions it produces. For examples of this, we have Heb. 11. everyone of the “great cloud of witnesses” ACTED in faith, which justified them. Their actions completed (perfected) their faith.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again, the same argument. Justified before men; not God.

It is a nice dodge, but has no merit. God does not care if we appear justified before men, and doesn’t want us to be concerned about it either. One the contrary, the Apostle says “for thy sake we are being killed all day long”.

James whole point is to point out anyone can “say” they have faith, and many claim that faith but have absolutely no evidence of it before men; whereas the one with true faith will be seen by men because of their works.

I agree that James is promoting that our faith is evident through our deeds. Saving faith is faith that works. It is that faith, working through love that is the faculty through which saving grace flows. This is why Catholics do not separate the flow of saving grace from the works it produces.

This is why James made the monumental statement in James 2:18 But someone may {well} say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

I am glad that you do not consider this an epistle of straw.

 

[guanophore]

I’m glad I do not worship your god. The arbiter of truth, faith and morals is Jesus; my God.

This smacks of the fundamentalist contamination of the “Just me and Jesus” mentality.

Jesus, our God,and arbiter of the Truth, founded a Church, and gave to it His authority. He is not separated from His Body.

Luke 10:16

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”

If it is the same God; He will reveal that in His time.

from your mouth to God’s ear!

But my God says one can’t be loosed from His hand.

True, but He will not prevent them from biting His hand, and jumping out. He does not want slaves and puppets, but Sons and Daughters. He wants people to fellowship wth Him out of love, and does not compel those that wish to be disobedient. The love pursues us, even while we are walking away.

 

[ncgolf]

but I do not need that prayer.

All prayer is good … let the arbiter decide on how to use that prayer, God knows the needs of all … you included … maybe that is why only God answers our requests … and doesn’t leave it up to us.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Thanks Pete for the response; I appreciate that.

The problem I have with the Genesis and Hebrews argument presented above is that the words “faith”, “justification” and “righteousness” have been blended in a way that takes separate thoughts and blends them together.

Good afternoon NonCatholic!

I don’t think I am seeing what is hidden in these words. For me, it is simply a matter of answering a couple of questions… Was Abraham’s faith a pleasing faith, a justifying faith, in Genesis 12? If it was pleasing to God, then it was justifying. If the people in Hebrews 11 are a “cloud of witnesses” for believers, then aren’t the examples of faith given in that chapter examples of justifying faith?

We know that if there is an apparent contradiction or misunderstanding, then it is us and not the Scripture.

I agree.

So, let’s look at what the Bible say about justification.

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been** justified by faith,** we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be **justified by faith in Christ **and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

It is evident that a righteous man lives by faith and the faith that is in Christ, justifies us before God.

I agree. As Trent put it, “faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons” (Council of Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 8). And we know that “whatever does not proceed from faith is sin” (Rom 14:23).

 

[NonCatholic]

Yes.

I have heard this false rendering before from the Reformed. What seems to get missed is that Abraham had no “men” with him before whom to be justified. He deliberately left all the servants and companions below, so that He would be alone on the mountain with God, and His Son (who probably thought his father was demented).

Further, references to Abraham and Rahab’s actions elsewhere make it clear that it was their actions, emanating from faith, that justified them. Faith does justify, but it is not separated from the actions it produces. For examples of this, we have Heb. 11. everyone of the “great cloud of witnesses” ACTED in faith, which justified them. Their actions completed (perfected) their faith. That would nullify: Eph 2:4-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Actions do not “justify” before God; only men…otherwise it contradicts what Scripture says and that is impossible. What you you think this is saying? Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (BEFORE MEN) do you see? 2Corinthians 11:18 Since many boast according to the flesh, I will boast also.

It is a nice dodge, but has no merit. God does not care if we appear justified before men, and doesn’t want us to be concerned about it either. One the contrary, the Apostle says “for thy sake we are being killed all day long”.

I agree that James is promoting that our faith is evident through our deeds. Saving faith is faith that works. It is that faith, working through love that is the faculty through which saving grace flows. This is why Catholics do not separate the flow of saving grace from the works it produces. If this was always true, then the thief on the cross next to Jesus would not be saved.

I am glad that you do not consider this an epistle of straw.

The men we are speaking of are all those that read and hear the word of God concerning Abraham; this would include us. As far as God caring if we are justified before men; I agree, but men care and we need to be able to gauge as far as we can with out fallen nature. Otherwise we could not discern right from wrong in the area of discipline among the body of believers.

If you believe that the rendering of this is different; then the only other possible rendering is a salvation by works, which seems to be denied in word but not in thought or deed, which is contrary to Scripture and results in another gospel. I see this holding the party line in word throughout this forum, but the written thought are obviously different.

 

[Pete_Holter]

James 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?”

Justified before men; not God-this is often overlooked and misunderstood. One of the reason Luther called James an epistle of straw. Same thing with Rehab.

James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Again, the same argument. Justified before men; not God. James whole point is to point out anyone can “say” they have faith, and many claim that faith but have absolutely no evidence of it before men; whereas the one with true faith will be seen by men because of their works. This is why James made the monumental statement in James 2:18 But someone may {well} say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

I think that this is a good argument; but, if this is the correct interpretation, then it doesn’t seem to account for James’ original question, “Can that faith save him?” It also does not give [me] a satisfactory answer to the question, What does James mean when he says, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness” (2:22-23). What does it mean for faith to be completed? And what does it mean for “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness” to be fulfilled? Doesn’t this last question require an answer that credits a certain amount of righteousness at the time of his testing? What other meaning could “fulfill” carry? What does it mean for faith to be “useless”? (v 20).

These verses introduce another problem for the justification-before-men argument, which is based on the use of the words, “You see.” The problem is that only Isaac saw Abraham being tested and I don’t think Abraham justified his faith before Isaac at this point in his life. Rather, Isaac would have been justified )) in thinking his dad was crazy!!! I imagine the conversation… “No, Isaac, really. God really did tell me to kill you.” “Really, Dad? Well, then why did He send His angel to stop you???” But James says that Abraham was justified at that point. Also, if this whole passage is about justification before men, wouldn’t James, then, be encouraging us towards the attitude of the Pharisee who wished to justify his own behavior? (cf. Luke 10:29) Wouldn’t this passage work to foster a spirit within us that Jesus condemns: “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God” (Luke 16:15). You see what I’m saying?

Guanophore already said most of this in a post from earlier today. Sorry for the repeat.

But like I said, we Catholic Christians have 1 Maccabees to tell us explicitly that the righteousness of God that depends on faith was credited to Abraham at the moment of his testing. And so we have no doubt about the interpretation of James. Perhaps a better place to start is with establishing the Scriptural status of the extra Old Testament books found in the Catholic Bible. I have tried to compile some posts on the New Testament usage of these extra books. I have so far made it through Sirach and Wisdom. As you are considering the possibility that James means what the Catholic Church says he means, perhaps it will also help you to take a look at those posts.

By the way, I picked up Matt Maher’s cd, Empty and Beautiful. If you listen to the samples and think you might like it, let me know and I’ll get a copy for you (or anyone else!). I am also hopeful that my poor attempts at humor in this post were not hurtful. If they were, then I am very sorry.

May God bless you!

 

[guanophore]

The men we are speaking of are all those that read and hear the word of God concerning Abraham; this would include us.

I agree! They would all understand that Abraham was justified by his deeds, just as the Scripture states. They would also know he was not “before men” on the mountain, but alone with God.

It was only when Abraham acted on his faith that God said “now I know”. This is between Abraham and God, not Abraham and other men.

Heb 11:8-12

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; and he set out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he stayed for a time in the land he had been promised, as in a foreign land, living in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he looked forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 By faith he received power of procreation, even though he was too old — and Sarah herself was barren — because he considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one person, and this one as good as dead, descendants were born, “as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.”

Heb 11:8-12

By faith Abraham obeyed
he answered the call
he set out for a place
By faith he stayed for a time in the land
he looked forward
By faith he received power of procreation
By faith Abraham considered God faithful

Faith that justifies is faith that acts. The justification by faith is not separated from the acts produced by it.

James 2:24
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Saving faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by actions that justify by grace, through faith.

 As far as God caring if we are justified before men; I agree, but men care and we need to be able to gauge as far as we can with out fallen nature.

Codswallop.

Justification pertains to our relationship with God. It pertains the same even if we were the only person on earth. Do you think Paul cared about “before men” when he was adrift at sea with no one in sight?

Otherwise we could not discern right from wrong in the area of discipline among the body of believers.

Discipline among the body of believers belongs to the shepherds to whom it has been given.

All of those shepherds believed that we are not justified by faith “alone” but by grace that manifests itself through faith that works.

If you believe that the rendering of this is different; then the only other possible rendering is a salvation by works,

No, Non. As I have said, this is a fallacy. There is no such thing as “salvation by works”. There are no deeds of man that can save Him. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved but Jesus.

We can only be saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves. This saving faith manifests itself in righteous deeds, which perfect and complete the faith.

which seems to be denied in word but not in thought or deed,

I fail to see where I have denied this at all.

which is contrary to Scripture and results in another gospel.

I agree.

I see this holding the party line in word throughout this forum, but the written thought are obviously different.

What written thought is that?

Why is it so difficult for you to believe that what you have been given to believe about Catholics might be wrong?

 

[NonCatholic]

This smacks of the fundamentalist contamination of the “Just me and Jesus” mentality.

Never heard that phrase before.

Jesus, our God,and arbiter of the Truth, founded a Church, and gave to it His authority. He is not separated from His Body.

See my God has a body of individuals; that together forms a church; little “c”. As I said before; your god is not my God.

Luke 10:16

16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Yes and you to appear to reject my God and I reject your god.

from your mouth to God’s ear!

amen

True, but He will not prevent them from biting His hand, and jumping out. He does not want slaves and puppets, but Sons and Daughters. He wants people to fellowship wth Him out of love, and does not compel those that wish to be disobedient. The love pursues us, even while we are walking away.

Well said!
We are way off topic; we see things from two different perspectives from the same gospel; which means I see one God of the Bible and you see one God of the Church. It is not personal; it’s a difference understanding, which one day will be revealed.