Someone can lose their salvation?

[broski234]

read the article below. It address the topic of losing salvation and refutes OSAS!

www.answers2prayer.org/bible_questions/Answers/salvation/lose_salvation.html

 

[broski234]

You all may be interested in this one as well!

www.christianissues.biz/perseverance.html?gclid=CPmlhLagjJYCFQJdgQoduH38FQ

 

[elvisman]

Jesus said of Judas, one of you is a “devil”. All types of religious people name the name of Christ and are deceived because they do not possess, they only possess. Judas was condemned to hell for the very same reason all people are for unbelief.

John 6:70-71 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."

As far as losing your salvation, if you drift away you were never saved.

Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and **made us sit **together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Did anyone catch the past tense?

Romans 8:29-30 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice the past tense? Why?

1 John 2:18-19 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

These are the one’s that claimed the name of Christ, but it was only lip service…they did not endure because they were phony. The saved always endure because they are under the care and influence of God and therefore cannot turn away.

Sorry, friend - salvation is a process.
Paul tells us to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phillipians 2:12.

---

When speaking of himself, he says, "Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin." Romans 7:24-25
**
In 1 Cor. 9:27, he says, “I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not be disqualified.”

Finally, I wrote this on another thread but it also applies here:

Your assertion that salvation can’t be lost is a misunderstanding on your part of what salvation is.
**
Romans 11:22 says – “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27 says – “If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

*2 Peter 2:20-21 - "*For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them."

These verses are clearly about those who were in God’s grace and LOST it. Don’t twist the scriptures to your own destruction.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus said of Judas, one of you is a “devil”. All types of religious people name the name of Christ and are deceived because they do not possess, they only possess. Judas was condemned to hell for the very same reason all people are for unbelief.

I think I have to agree with you on this one. Judas had the same opportunities and grace as all the other Apostles, but did not accept this saving grace.

John 6:70-71 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him."

As far as losing your salvation, if you drift away you were never saved.

This is a man made tradition that is not part of the Apostolic Teaching. I am not sure why it needed to be invented. I think to support the skewed idea of salvation contrived by the Reformers. The parable of the sower and the seed makes it clear that this is not the case.

Ephesians 2:4-10 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Did anyone catch the past tense?

Of course! This is what Catholics understand to be initial justification. The Apostles taught that these things occur in baptism. This is the part of our salvation that is “past”. There are aspects of it that are present, and future.

Jesus and the Apostles were clear that we need to walk in the good works that He has prepared for us. Now, you will say that those who fail to do so were “never saved to begin with”. However, this is not consistent with Apostolic teaching.

Romans 8:29-30 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Notice the past tense? Why?

Paul is talking here about those who have finished the race. It is improper to apply these concepts to those of us who are still working out our salvation.

1 John 2:18-19 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

It is certainly true that there are some that claim it who are frauds. This does not preclude those of whom Jesus taught that received the word with joy, the fell away. One cannot be a"partaker of divine grace’ without being saved.

These are the one’s that claimed the name of Christ, but it was only lip service…they did not endure because they were phony.

Yes.

The saved always endure because they are under the care and influence of God and therefore cannot turn away.

This is a fallacy that was invented about 500 years ago,partly to deny the Catholic teaching that suffering is part of the Christian life.

 

[NonCatholic]

Sorry, friend - salvation is a process.
Paul tells us to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phillipians 2:12.

---

When speaking of himself, he says, "Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin." Romans 7:24-25

Romans 11:22 says – *“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: *severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

---

Hebrews 10:26-27 says – “If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

*2 Peter 2:20-21 - "*For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. **
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them."

These verses are clearly about those who were in God’s grace and LOST it. Don’t twist the scriptures to your own destruction.

As much as I would to take each verse; but it is very sad to see so much Scripture taken so far out of context.

Paul talking about “work out your own salvation” if taken as you have twisted it, would be totally contrary to Scripture, so we know you can’t be correct, so what is Paul saying? We know that the entire salvation process is the work or gift of God…or do you?

**“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” **That sounds somewhat like the Pietists…work out your own salvation. It’s up to you, he seems to be saying. Then in verse 13 he says, **“For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” **Verse 13 sounds just the opposite. It sounds as if it is all God, willing and doing whatever He wants in you.

Now having read those two verses and considered the two opposite views, we might conclude that this is a rather complex issue to resolve. And that is not the case.

Paul resolves it very simply. He says in verse 12 it’s all you and in verse 13 it’s all God. What he doesn’t do is harmonize it. Very simply, it takes all that we are and all that God is. Simply, it demands that I make commitment of my life daily to the service of Jesus Christ with every faculty that I possess and at the same time all that is accomplished within me is the work of God. The answer is, it’s all of us and it’s all of God.

We shouldn’t be surprised to find this mysterious paradox in the matter of sanctification, we find it in a lot of other ways as well in the Scripture. If we go back, for example, to the matter of incarnation we are struck with the mystery of the fact that Jesus Christ was Son of Man, fully man and that everything He accomplished in His life He did as man. He spoke with a voice of a man, He walked with the feet of a man, He did miracles with the hands of a man, He thought with the mind of a man, He saw with the eyes of a man, He heard with the ears of a man, He felt with the heart of a man. And yet at the same time He was all God. He was the God/Man, the unfathomable union of deity and humanity with no loss to either.

We are not surprised also to find the same mysterious paradox in the matter of inspiration. We understand, for example, that Philippians was written by the Apostle Paul, it’s his vocabulary, it’s his heart, it’s his mind, it’s his thoughts, it’s his reasonings, his logic, his passion, his concern. It’s all of Paul and yet every word is inspired by the Holy Spirit. How can it be?; but it is.

We have the same situation as we think about salvation. Salvation demands turning from sin and embracing the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation demands an act of the human will in which the sinner repents, places faith in the persona and work of Christ. And yet it’s all of God who chose Him before the foundation of the world and effected that salvation through sovereign grace.

We find the same thing in the perseverance of a believer. We are eternally secure because we are held with Christ in the hand of God, because God has so designed it that no one can bring an accusation against us, God will not hear it. No one can condemn God’s elect. It is God that justifies. It is Christ that stands for us. And yet though it is all God in terms of our security, it is all us in terms of our perseverance. And the Bible says that if we are not faithful to continue to the end, we shall not inherit eternal life. It takes all of us and all of God and therein is the divine paradox repeated in many many different ways.

All I care to refute at this time.

 

[MGLechner]

Doesn’t Paul speak of branches being grafted in and broken off? In my estimation, if you do not remain in the Will of God, you can lose your salvation. Salvation is a gift, but at the same time you are not suppose to cast your pearls before swine… I know this is a difficult concept for eternal security folk to wrap their minds around, but…it is the truth.

 

[NonCatholic]

I think I have to agree with you on this one. Judas had the same opportunities and grace as all the other Apostles, but did not accept this saving grace.

This is a man made tradition that is not part of the Apostolic Teaching. I am not sure why it needed to be invented. I think to support the skewed idea of salvation contrived by the Reformers. The parable of the sower and the seed makes it clear that this is not the case.

You got the parable wrong. This speaks of the different types of religious people with the fourth being the true believers.

Of course! This is what Catholics understand to be initial justification. The Apostles taught that these things occur in baptism. This is the part of our salvation that is “past”. There are aspects of it that are present, and future.

The apostles of Christ did not teach that, but I guess there is another set for the Church…but we’ve already hashed that out.

Jesus and the Apostles were clear that we need to walk in the good works that He has prepared for us. Now, you will say that those who fail to do so were “never saved to begin with”. However, this is not consistent with Apostolic teaching.

another set of apostles, not the one’s in the Bible.

Paul is talking here about those who have finished the race. It is improper to apply these concepts to those of us who are still working out our salvation.

Are you serious or just kidding around here? Paul finishing the race is not a salvation issue, but a reward issue.

It is certainly true that there are some that claim it who are frauds. This does not preclude those of whom Jesus taught that received the word with joy, then fell away. One cannot be a"partaker of divine grace’ without being saved.

Now I know you are joking You described the 3 types of soil in the parable; so now I understand your thinking here. Any grace from God is divine is it not? Every day were alive, believer or not is an act of divine grace since the penalty is death. God gives rain and a crop to both the believing farmer and the farmer that curses God…common grace.

This is a fallacy that was invented about 500 years ago,partly to deny the Catholic teaching that suffering is part of the Christian life.

You just destroyed the doctrine of election.

 

[NonCatholic]

Over recent centuries, this has been reduced to the least common denominator of “pre-destination” This, despite the scripture which says:

1 Timothy 2:3-5 “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

Pre-destination says that you are doomed if you are doomed, no matter what, and vice-versa. Since we have no way of knowing this, why even try? And, if we somehow know that we are destined to Heaven, why not just launch into a life of sin, since you can neither gain Heaven nor lose hell? I don’t get it either.

Did God not say He created vessels of honor and vessels of wrath? It is when you give up trying to earn your salvation that you may find salvation in Christ. What you spoke of is one of the mind boggling paradoxes in the Bible. God does everything, yet we come to Him, but we don’t come to Him unless were called by Him. As I said; it is mind boggling, but this is where faith comes in.

 

[guanophore]

As much as I would to take each verse; but it is very sad to see so much Scripture taken so far out of context.

Please, do take each verse. That is the purpose of the thread!

Paul talking about “work out your own salvation” if taken as you have twisted it, would be totally contrary to Scripture, so we know you can’t be correct, so what is Paul saying? We know that the entire salvation process is the work or gift of God…or do you?

No, not “entire”. God has ordained that we should have a choice, and a part. Indeed, it is based only on His grace. Let us look at the next verse:

“Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Phil 2:12-13

The Apostle makes reference to obedience. This is a human ability, and a human act. It is only by God’s grace that we are free to obey the Apostolic command. There are many such commandments, that e “work”, “suffer”, 'strive", “run”, “earnestly desire” etc, etc. These are human qualities, and the Apostles urge them in the imperative mode (commandments).

**“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” **That sounds somewhat like the Pietists…work out your own salvation. It’s up to you, he seems to be saying. Then in verse 13 he says, **“For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” **Verse 13 sounds just the opposite. It sounds as if it is all God, willing and doing whatever He wants in you.

Now you are going overboard the other way! Just as Christ is both human, and divine, so are we, partakers of the Divine Nature, yet we continue to struggle with our human nature. We have a human part to contribute, and God works through that humanity to bring us into conformity to Himself. Getting saved does not make out humanity null and void. We can still choose to sin, or choose to allow that Spirit to work in us. This is why Heb. says one can “spurn the Son of God afresh”.

Now having read those two verses and considered the two opposite views, we might conclude that this is a rather complex issue to resolve. And that is not the case.

True, but then, we never saw them as “opposite”. You have perceived a false dichotomy.

Paul resolves it very simply. He says in verse 12 it’s all you and in verse 13 it’s all God. What he doesn’t do is harmonize it. Very simply, it takes all that we are and all that God is. Simply, it demands that I make commitment of my life daily to the service of Jesus Christ with every faculty that I possess and at the same time all that is accomplished within me is the work of God.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

The answer is, it’s all of us and it’s all of God.

That being the case, what do you suppose would be the outcome if one or the other was missing?

We shouldn’t be surprised to find this mysterious paradox in the matter of sanctification, we find it in a lot of other ways as well in the Scripture.

Indeed yes. Paradox and mystery are part of our Spiritual interitance. Included in these ineffible mysteries is that Jesus can make Himself present in Bread and Wine.

He felt with the heart of a man. And yet at the same time He was all God. He was the God/Man, the unfathomable union of deity and humanity with no loss to either.

You have well described what Catholics call “cooperation with grace”. When we are created anew in Christ, we are “all human” still, but also’ partakers of the Divine Nature". It is in this hypostatic union that we work out our salvation.

We are not surprised also to find the same mysterious paradox in the matter of inspiration. It’s all of Paul and yet every word is inspired by the Holy Spirit. How can it be?; but it is.

This same incarnational principle is true of the church. Created by Christ, Holy, Blameless, His Spotless Bride, infallible because He is her head. Yet at the same time, fallilbe members of her full of corruption and sin. How can such paradox exist?

We have the same situation as we think about salvation. Salvation demands turning from sin and embracing the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation demands an act of the human will in which the sinner repents, places faith in the persona and work of Christ. And yet it's all of God who chose Him before the foundation of the world and effected that salvation through sovereign grace.

Although it is true that we are called by sovereign grace, God permits that some can reject His purpose for themselves. God has ordained that His creation should have the ability to choose to be with Him, or not. This is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God.

We find the same thing in the perseverance of a believer. We are eternally secure because we are held with Christ in the hand of God,

security is indeed possible, but it is presumtuous to assume so during this life. While we are here in the vale of tears, the possibility continues to exist that we can be cut off - our names blotted from the Book of Life.

 

[sodak]

It is when you give up trying to earn your salvation that you may find salvation in Christ.

I hope you are not referring to the teachings of the Catholic Church by this statement. Earning salvation is a heresy, and has never been taught by the Church.

What is mind boggling to me, in watching this exchange, is the myriad twists and turns people make to force Scripture into an incorrect personal interpretation.

 

[NonCatholic]

security is indeed possible, but it is presumptuous to assume so during this life. While we are here in the vale of tears, the possibility continues to exist that we can be cut off - our names blotted from the Book of Life.

Presumptuous for a Catholic; can be considered a sin. Honestly, in your heart of hearts, does God want us to have the joy of security or the confusion of are we or aren’t we?

 

[guanophore]

God so designed it that no one can bring an accusation against us,

This is perhaps not the best way to express what you are trying to say. In fact, God has permitted freedom to the accuser of the brethren, who stands accusing the saints all night and all day.

God will not hear it. No one can condemn God’s elect.

There is a great difference between being accused, and being condemned. In fact, if the accuser can find a just accusation, God will hear of it.

It is God that justifies. It is Christ that stands for us.

This is why the Church teaches that it is presumptuous to assume ones eternal security. We are all in the hands of God, and we place ourselves humbly at His judgement.

This is why the Apostle teaches:

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive commendation from God.

As you will easily recall, Paul testified of himself many times that he had lived before God with a clear conscience all his life. Yet, he knows that God can see things he cannot, and he places himself before God’s judgement.

When one mortally sins, one is separated from the grace that saves us.

And yet though it is all God in terms of our security, it is all us in terms of our perseverance.

Codswallop.

And the Bible says that if we are not faithful to continue to the end, we shall not inherit eternal life. It takes all of us and all of God and therein is the divine paradox repeated in many many different ways.

You are very near to the Apostolic Teaching.

You got the parable wrong.

Well, the parable comes from Jesus, and cannot be “wrong”. What you are saying is that you believe my interpretation of it is wrong.

This speaks of the different types of religious people with the fourth being the true believers.

That is how you have been taught to understand it, because the Apostolic teaching is just too “catholic”. However, Jesus is speaking to the “non-religious”. he is preaching to farmers and laborers, and He is teaching the various ways people respond to the implanted Word, which has the power to save.

The apostles of Christ did not teach that, but I guess there is another set for the Church…but we’ve already hashed that out.

another set of apostles, not the one’s in the Bible.

I know it is hard for those who have only the Bible to understand the Apostolic Teaching. Their faith was never meant to be separated from the writings produced by it. When this happened, it became more and more difficult for the readers to understand from the mindset of those who wrote it.

However, the Apostles did, indeed, teach that there are elements of salvation that are past, present, and future. It is not 'another set", but the same Apostles mentioned in the Scripture. What is “another set” are the Reformers, who have corrupted the Apostolic message out of fear, preaching “a different gospel”.

Are you serious or just kidding around here?  Paul finishing the race is not a salvation issue, but a reward issue.

That is what you were taught to believe, to support the theology that was pandered to you.

The reward is eternal life. Rom 6:22
22 But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Rev 2:26-27
26 To everyone who conquers and continues to do my works to the end,
I will give authority over the nations;
27 to rule them with an iron rod,
as when clay pots are shattered —

What do you think it means to be “disqualified”?

Now I know you are joking You described the 3 types of soil in the parable; so now I understand your thinking here. Any grace from God is divine is it not?

Yes.

Every day were alive, believer or not is an act of divine grace since the penalty is death. God gives rain and a crop to both the believing farmer and the farmer that curses God…common grace.

You just destroyed the doctrine of election.

I guess you lost me here. God desires that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. Some spurn His desire for themselves, and fail to respond to His call. Some respond, begin in faith, then are choked by weeds or fall away when persecution comes. Three fourths of the seeds sprout. Only one fourth perseveres.

 

[guanophore]

It is when you give up trying to earn your salvation that you may find salvation in Christ.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

What you spoke of is one of the mind boggling paradoxes in the Bible. God does everything, yet we come to Him, but we don’t come to Him unless were called by Him. As I said; it is mind boggling, but this is where faith comes in.

It is interesting that you can accept a mind boggling mystery in this area, but cannot when it comes to the Eucharist. however, I agree, We cannot come to Him but by His grace, yet it is incumbent upon us to respond to His grace.

 

[Protestant101]

I’ve never understood the thought of OSAS.
Even when I was a Protestant.

In the Scriptures it talks several times about being careful not to lose your salvation. And it speaks of people who did.

Well; as a Protestant; I can say that not all Protestants believe OSAS. As usual; I would have to disagree with some things posted here - first with “NonCatholic” but also with the general trend of catholic belief in this thread re Philippians 2 and “working out your own salvation.” There are two ends of the pole being reflected here; and neither is right.

LOL, I’ll be back.

 

[NonCatholic]

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

It is interesting that you can accept a mind boggling mystery in this area, but cannot when it comes to the Eucharist. however, I agree, We cannot come to Him but by His grace, yet it is incumbent upon us to respond to His grace.

That’s because some things are hard to impossible to wrap our finite minds around, but the Eucharist is not one of them.

 

[NonCatholic]

Well; as a Protestant; I can say that not all Protestants believe OSAS. As usual; I would have to disagree with some things posted here - first with “NonCatholic” but also with the general trend of catholic belief in this thread re Philippians 2 and “working out your own salvation.” There are two ends of the pole being reflected here; and neither is right.

LOL, I’ll be back.

This will be interesting, can’t wait to see…my gut tells me you will not read my words carefully, but we will see.

 

[qui_est_ce]

How do you know he was saved?

All are saved by the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. It is when one rejects Jesus’ call to participate in His suffering that he loses his salvation.

God wants ALL to be saved, but He will not force us. We have the Fee Will to chose Him or to reject him.

 

[elvisman]

Paul talking about “work out your own salvation” if taken as you have twisted it, would be totally contrary to Scripture, so we know you can’t be correct, so what is Paul saying? We know that the entire salvation process is the work or gift of God…or do you?

**“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” **That sounds somewhat like the Pietists…work out your own salvation. It’s up to you, he seems to be saying. Then in verse 13 he says, **“For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” **Verse 13 sounds just the opposite. It sounds as if it is all God, willing and doing whatever He wants in you.

Now having read those two verses and considered the two opposite views, we might conclude that this is a rather complex issue to resolve. And that is not the case.

Paul resolves it very simply. He says in verse 12 it’s all you and in verse 13 it’s all God. What he doesn’t do is harmonize it. Very simply, it takes all that we are and all that God is. Simply, it demands that I make commitment of my life daily to the service of Jesus Christ with every faculty that I possess and at the same time all that is accomplished within me is the work of God. The answer is, it’s all of us and it’s all of God.

We shouldn’t be surprised to find this mysterious paradox in the matter of sanctification, we find it in a lot of other ways as well in the Scripture. If we go back, for example, to the matter of incarnation we are struck with the mystery of the fact that Jesus Christ was Son of Man, fully man and that everything He accomplished in His life He did as man. He spoke with a voice of a man, He walked with the feet of a man, He did miracles with the hands of a man, He thought with the mind of a man, He saw with the eyes of a man, He heard with the ears of a man, He felt with the heart of a man. And yet at the same time He was all God. He was the God/Man, the unfathomable union of deity and humanity with no loss to either.

We are not surprised also to find the same mysterious paradox in the matter of inspiration. We understand, for example, that Philippians was written by the Apostle Paul, it’s his vocabulary, it’s his heart, it’s his mind, it’s his thoughts, it’s his reasonings, his logic, his passion, his concern. It’s all of Paul and yet every word is inspired by the Holy Spirit. How can it be?; but it is.

We have the same situation as we think about salvation. Salvation demands turning from sin and embracing the Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation demands an act of the human will in which the sinner repents, places faith in the persona and work of Christ. And yet it’s all of God who chose Him before the foundation of the world and effected that salvation through sovereign grace.

All I care to refute at this time.

It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t care to refure the rest. I had this same conversation on another thread with another person who had the same misunderstanding of what I was saying and he wouldn’t - or couldn’t refute them all in context…

**My point in bringing up Philippians 2:12 was not to illustrate that we have to work for our salvation. It was to show that though we can have a moral assurance of salvation - we have no guarantee. Jesus, Peter and Paul all taught this. **

**I brought up *****Romans 11:22, *******Hebrews 10:26-272, Peter 2:20-2 and Romans 7:24-25 ******to further illustrate this point. Some of Jesus’ references to this are found in **
Matt. 24:13 and the parable of the sower in Mark 4:1-20, Matt. 13:1-23, and Luke 8:1-15.

 

[NonCatholic]

All are saved by the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. It is when one rejects Jesus’ call to participate in His suffering that he loses his salvation.

God wants ALL to be saved, but He will not force us. We have the Fee Will to chose Him or to reject him.

Hey SemperReforma,

What do you think about the new theolgy presented here?

 

[NonCatholic]

**It doesn’t **surprise me that you don’t care to refure the rest. I had this same conversation on another thread with another person who had the same misunderstanding of what I was saying and he wouldn’t - or couldn’t refute them all in context…

My point in bringing up Philippians 2:12 was not to illustrate that we have to work for our salvation. It was to show that though we can have a moral assurance of salvation - we have no guarantee. Jesus, Peter and Paul all taught this.

**I brought up *****Romans 11:22, *******Hebrews 10:26-272, Peter 2:20-2 and Romans 7:24-25 ******to further illustrate this point. Some of Jesus’ references to this are found in **
Matt. 24:13 and the parable of the sower in Mark 4:1-20, Matt. 13:1-23, and Luke 8:1-15.

When you show that you cannot divide the Word and have been shown the truth and you still don’t see; not much one can do for you; it is in God’s hands. It is one thing if you are off a little bit on one or two, but when you miss everything…:banghead:

I apologize for coming over as being disrespectful; look how guanophore articulates his/her positions; he/she makes it easier to dialogue.

Maybe we should start a new thread on the parable of the sower, although…Jesus explains it meaning pretty well.