Someone can lose their salvation?

[guanophore]

Do you believe that we can remain right with God when we grieve the HS?

See Rom. 4:25 - 5:1-2.

Rom 5:1-2
5:1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Does this mean that you believe that, since you have “faith” you can do things that grieve the HS and remain in right relationship(justified) with God?

Can you have “peace with God” while grieving the Holy Spirit?

Isn’t this kinda like being "happily married’ while beating your wife?

 

[ncgolf]

Do you believe that we can remain right with God when we grieve the HS?
Isn’t this kinda like being "happily married’ while beating your wife?

Okay … we are back at Posts 813-818.

Ncgolf

Tell me … what would you feel if you were made right with God?

Moondweller

Peace with God. I felt this the moment I believed and do to this very moment. I fully relate, experientially, to Paul’s words:
Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”

And I’ve sinned many times since I believed.

Ncgolf

This is one thing not felt when one is in sin … I am surprised when one still feels peace when sinning … especially if one has received the ultimate gift.

Can you have “peace with God” while grieving the Holy Spirit?

That is still a very good and appropriate question.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Moondweller,

An almost heroic effort… but, you really should listen to your own advice.

This is a good example of eisegesis and lifting a passage right out of its context.

First of all, Paul doesn’t say that God will “save” or even “justify” anyone based on their deeds, but will “render to each man according to his deeds.” Nowhere in the Scriptures, Old or New Testaments, does it say God will save anyone according to their deeds.

The REAL context is the entire Bible - is is the unified Word of God put into print. It all holds together - and Christ even gave a ‘Cliff Notes’ version that you may want to look at in Matt 22:34-40

**When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together,
35
and one of them [a scholar of the law] tested him by asking,
36
“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37
He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38
This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39
The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40
The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” **

NO ONE IS SAYING we save ourselves with, or through, or by our deeds - ("…love your neihbor as yourself…") only you, as if to create a two-part strawman to knock down. The second part is a bit darker … you are again setting the words of St. Paul in an effort to counter the words of Christ.

We are saved by the Grace of God through His Son Jesus Christ.

In the OT, young David was chosen by God, had faith - but, still had to arm his slighshot with a stone. Sounds like a WORK that was based on Faith.

In the NT we find that Zacchaeus probably had some faith - but maybe more curiosity when he climbed that tree. Then the Grace of God touched him when he saw Jesus - but, still made repentance for defrauding others - a WORK based on Faith.

No body with real Faith sits on their hands and cliams that they do not have to do anything. Really, Moondwelller, you have yet to address the issue in a forthright manner - begin to look at the words of Christ (as opposed to mis-reading the words of St. Paul) and see how clearly He tells people what they must DO.

And, you know what, one must KEEP DOING - or that heavenly reward will not be yours.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller,
Have you noticed that in the New Testament, we are always SAVED BY FAITH, while always JUDGED BASED on ACTIONS, with those doing the will of God going to heaven and those doing evil condemned to Hell. I don’t think you will find any exceptions to this. i.e., You won’t find any passages saying you will saved base on your actions or judged based on your Faith.

So what does this have to say about judgment and salvation?

In your sotierology, you are saved once and for ever, so the “judged based on actions” has absolutely no meaning for you in regards to your ultimate destiny of heaven or Hell… But then how do you explain all those passaged that say we will be judged based on our actions?. ( Matt 7: 21-23, Matthew 19: 16-19, Matthew 25 31-46, Romans chapter 2, James chapter 2 to name a few)?

In our Catholic sotierology, this blends in perfectly. We are saved through faith, but must demonstrate that faith with actions to remain in the state of Grace and attain heaven.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Moondweller,
Have you noticed that in the New Testament, we are always SAVED BY FAITH, while always JUDGED BASED on ACTIONS, with those doing the will of God going to heaven and those doing evil condemned to Hell. I don’t think you will find any exceptions to this. i.e., You won’t find any passages saying you will saved base on your actions or judged based on your Faith.

So what does this have to say about judgment and salvation?

Good observation!

 

[broski234]

States nothing about baptism sanctifying or justifying anyone. Looks those words up in a concordance and the related verses.

So you believe that baptism does nothing correct? It’s just a symbol to you?

 

[Howie01]

guanophore:

I also learned that the seal occurs in baptism, and that the profession of faith made at the time of baptism (calling upon His name) was never administered to a person that was not willing to make a commitment unto death.

The apostles believed and taught that the cleansing waters of baptism infused the HS, sealing the believer until the day of redemption.

**Ephesians 1:13-14In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.**As I recall, Paul mentions baptism only once in the entire epistle to the Ephesians, and that mention has nothing to do with the sealing of the believer, but the sealing occurs with the believer’s believing.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Howie01,

Just to make sure I understand your post - are you and Moondweller in the same boat when it comes to Baptism being non-essential?

As I recall, Paul mentions baptism only once in the entire epistle to the Ephesians, and that mention has nothing to do with the sealing of the believer, but the sealing occurs with the believer’s believing.

Be careful - I think Moond is quickly finding that that boat is springing leaks all over and has already been determined to not be sea-worthy! And, if you are really interested in St. Paul - and what he DID (alas… another WORK!) take a look at what took place in his life as recorded in Acts 9: 17-20

**So Ananias went and entered the house; laying his hands on him, he said, “Saul, my brother, the Lord has sent me, Jesus who appeared to you on the way by which you came, that you may regain your sight and be filled with the holy Spirit.”
18
Immediately things like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. He got up and was baptized, **
19
and when he had eaten, he recovered his strength. He stayed some days with the disciples in Damascus,
20
and he began at once to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God

Actions always speak louder then words. According to the scripture - Paul received the Holy Spirit first - and that must have been a mighty experience - AND THEN HE WAS BAPTIZED. You just have to ask yourself “Why did he do that?” While there are many possible and reasonable responses - saying something like, “Baptism is not necessary” is not one of them. Following Paul’s example is something we can all encourage others to do (that is, assuming you have done this yourself! )

In fact, if you are looking for a truly ‘sea-worthy’ craft - one GUARNATEED never to sink - here is a link about the Barque of Peter: ss-peterandpaul.net/barque.htm (The words are important … the music is there if you are interested, )

God bless,

 

[SHW]

(Rom. 6:23).One obeys the gospel by believing it’s message of Jesus Christ and His redemptive work on their behalf. It’s called "obedience of faith.

Hi Moondweller,

How have you eluded the cameras by the Mars Rover all this time?

Will persons, who claim they are Christians, inherit eternal life if they do not obey God’s commandments?

SHW

 

[tqualey]

Hi, SHW,

I know it is presumptive on my part … but, I would like to offer a possible answer to your question

Hi Moondweller,
How have you eluded the cameras by the Mars Rover all this time?

Practice obviously makes perfect - and eluding detection is really only slightly different from eluding answering the clear and concise questions put to him on this list.

I was sort of hoping that our comments and questions would create somethink like an impact creater…maybe like Aristarchus
(here is a link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_(crater ) which is big enough to be seen from earth without magnification.

Who knows, maybe tonight we can see some light from the moon … the past seveal posts have obviously been clouded over…

God bless,

 

[Howie01]

tqualey:

Just to make sure I understand your post - are you and Moondweller in the same boat when it comes to Baptism being non-essential?

The context of my post concerned the sealing of the believer, by the HS, prior to baptism.

However, I believe that baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation:**Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.**Is condemnation for not being baptized? Or, is condemnation for not believing [the Gospel]?

(ISTM the Lord is saying condemnation is for not believing the Gospel.)

tqualey:

Be careful - I think Moond is quickly finding that that boat is springing leaks all over and has already been determined to not be sea-worthy!

MD’s boat is very seaworthy, IMO.

In reading MD’s posts, I find him able to articulate the Lord’s position clearly through a Spirit-filled understanding of His revelation.

tqualey:

Actions always speak louder then words. According to the scripture - Paul received the Holy Spirit first - and that must have been a mighty experience - AND THEN HE WAS BAPTIZED.

Correct—baptism is subsequent to belief, and subsequent to receiving the HS. The general order set forth in Acts is, repent, believe, be baptized.

 

[ncgolf]

However, I believe that baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation:Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.Is condemnation for not being baptized? Or, is condemnation for not believing [the Gospel]?

(ISTM the Lord is saying condemnation is for not believing the Gospel.)

The verse you gave says believe and be baptized … not just believe … if you believe and are not baptized seems to indicate you have not fulfilled the command fully. Why would a true disciple not follow the command to believe and be baptized?

Baptism as a requirement seems to be indicated by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Howie01,

We may be honestly looking at another thread here. But, as I appreciate the topic at hand (as I try for a moment to weave these two topics toghrer… ) one can be Baptized - and then give up causing him to lose his salvation

The context of my post concerned the sealing of the believer, by the HS, prior to baptism.

However, I believe that baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation:Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.Is condemnation for not being baptized? Or, is condemnation for not believing [the Gospel]?].

According to the Cathecism of the Catholic Church:
1257 “The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.” ((Mt 28:19).

I think your reading of Mark is misplacing the emphasis - it is not an either or statement or an arrangement where one has an option. The fundamental principle here is to obey Christ. We are to believe what He says AND then DO what He says. Being Baptized is the beginning of the DO part … there are more requirements that have to be followed (but, they can be easily summarized as Love God and Love your Neighbor… )

The focus Christ has is the emphasis of One Triune God.
“Whoever believes and is baptized, will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16). Because Baptism is the only door to eternal happiness which the Church knows, she makes sure that all are baptized." Here is a link: catholicity.com/catechism/necessity_of_baptism.html

The rub lies here: just because the ‘door’ is opened does not mean that using your free will you automtically walk through or that you do not freely choose to walk out. The baptized can lose their salvation just as certainly as the circumcised Jew can (and did) worship idols, murder the prophets and turn his back of God.

God’s promise of salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ, is solid - our acceptance (through our cooperation with the Grace of God) of the responsibilities of being a Christian - a follower of Christ - is a daily struggle with the world, the flesh and the devil. Some choose not to struggle and hope to say, “Lord, Lord…” on the Last Day. Matthew records Christ’s words clearly (Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”) And, we are back to one of those WORKS things, again! We are required to DO something - motivated by our Faith in Christ, energized by His Grace, to act in charity.

God bless

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by Howie01
The context of my post concerned the sealing of the believer, by the HS, prior to baptism.

However, I believe that baptism is not an absolute necessity for salvation:

Mark 16:16

“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Is condemnation for not being baptized? Or, is condemnation for not believing [the Gospel]?].

Hi Howie01

Believing and being baptized go hand in hand. If you believe, then you receive baptism. However, if you do remain in unbelief and do not believe and receive baptism, then you are condemned.

Acts 22:14-16 "Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

There is a thread titled “The Necessity of Baptism” at
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312560&page=7

Pax,
SHW

 

[guanophore]

Okay … we are back at Posts 813-818.

That is still a very good and appropriate question.

I think it is quite possible for a person to experience "peace’ while in sin, and grieving the HS. Humans have an incredible ability to deceive themselves, and also with some help from the evil one, we can convince ourselves with impugnity that we are in the right.

 

[SHW]

I think it is quite possible for a person to experience "peace’ while in sin, and grieving the HS. Humans have an incredible ability to deceive themselves, and also with some help from the evil one, we can convince ourselves with impugnity that we are in the right.

Amen! I totally agree with you.

SHW

 

[Ecoclimber]

I’ve been wundering around in the Protestant land for some time. I love the praise and worship and the extemporary reading of the word and its application in your life. I seen people healed and delivered and on fire for God.

However, I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools all the way past the university level. The Jesuits did me in with their liberation theology and I left. I have been on the road to coming back but keep running into some roadblocks concerning salvation and purgatory.

Heb 10:11-14
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

I know now that the Greek word for believing is present tense active meaning a continual action of believing and not a one-time situation. However, I am troubled by the fact that when Jesus preached the Good News that no man can save himself, all have fallen short of the Glory of God, not one righteous and that He paid the price for our sins. He invokes a higher requirement then the Law of Moses. It’s not committing an act of adultery that is sin; it’s the mere thought or desire. It’s not the act of murder but the thought of being angry with someone that can lead to murder… the root cause.

My question is before Christ died for our sins on the cross no one could keep his commandments, Then how can someone who is saved expect to keep a higher degree of obedience when he couldn’t keep the lower commandments if you get my drift. He says put the carnal desires away through the power of the Holy Spirit but there are no instructions on how to do this?

I also have a concern as to how many good works as a condition of love is needed to obtain salvation. 200? 2000?
I do not see many Catholics taking in the poor within their homes, Clothing the naked, prison ministry, going without food so other brothers in Christ may eat. Give money to someone that as for it without requiring repayment. I don’t see the hating of the things of this life or worldly pursuits over spiritual pursuits.I don’t see the love that is required for salvation. If you read how Christians acted in the first century you will get a drift on the meaning of love within the body of Christ.
By the end of the 2nd century the pagans were mocking the Christians for talking the talk but not walking the walk. And by the 3rd century the Christians were butchering each other over the Arian controversy.

I’ve been talking to chair of the theology dept at the Jesuit University where I graduated from. However, because of health issues and fact that the Jesuit President of this university and his order is being sued for allowing Jesuit priests who had known sexual problems to be placed in remote Eskimo villages where all outside communication was limited. seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2008625875_suit14m0.html this is becoming a real roadblock for me to continue on to find a solution to the salvation dilemma .

seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2008625875_suit14m0.html

 

[Howie01]

ncgolf:

The verse you gave says believe and be baptized … not just believe … if you believe and are not baptized seems to indicate you have not fulfilled the command fully. Why would a true disciple not follow the command to believe and be baptized?

Baptism as a requirement seems to be indicated by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

SHW:

Hi Howie01

Believing and being baptized go hand in hand. If you believe, then you receive baptism. However, if you do remain in unbelief and do not believe and receive baptism, then you are condemned.

Fellas, I’ve demonstrated that condemnation occurs because of unbelief.

There’s no condemnation for not being baptized.

 

[Howie01]

tqualey:

According to the Cathecism of the Catholic Church:

1257 "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." ((Mt 28:19).

I think your reading of Mark is misplacing the emphasis - it is not an either or statement or an arrangement where one has an option. The fundamental principle here is to obey Christ. We are to believe what He says AND then DO what He says. Being Baptized is the beginning of the DO part … there are more requirements that have to be followed (but, they can be easily summarized as Love God and Love your Neighbor… )

The focus Christ has is the emphasis of One Triune God.
“Whoever believes and is baptized, will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16). Because Baptism is the only door to eternal happiness which the Church knows, she makes sure that all are baptized." Here is a link: catholicity.com/catechism…f_baptism.html

The rub lies here: just because the ‘door’ is opened does not mean that using your free will you automtically walk through or that you do not freely choose to walk out. The baptized can lose their salvation just as certainly as the circumcised Jew can (and did) worship idols, murder the prophets and turn his back of God.

God’s promise of salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ, is solid - our acceptance (through our cooperation with the Grace of God) of the responsibilities of being a Christian - a follower of Christ - is a daily struggle with the world, the flesh and the devil. Some choose not to struggle and hope to say, “Lord, Lord…” on the Last Day. Matthew records Christ’s words clearly (Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”) And, we are back to one of those WORKS things, again! We are required to DO something - motivated by our Faith in Christ, energized by His Grace, to act in charity.

To begin, the CCC is not an inspired document.

Furthermore, look at the statements from the CCC in your post above: ”God has bound salvation to the sacrament of baptism, but He, Himself, is not bound by His sacraments.” IMO, that’s double-talk.

Notice as well from the link you provided: ”Although God has bound salvation to Baptism, he himself is not bound by his sacraments (he can save by other means).

If, as the CCC states, God can use means other than baptism to save, then baptism is clearly not necessary for salvation.

Was Abraham saved by baptism, or by faith?

What about Isaac, Jacob, Jacob’s sons, King David?

God is immutable in His character, and a study of that shows that His immutability is of particular importance to Him with respect to those He saves:John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that the one believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.(Jn 3:18, 36).

 

[ncgolf]

Fellas, I’ve demonstrated that condemnation occurs because of unbelief.

There’s no condemnation for not being baptized.

Actually … you have not … and anyone reading your posts will recognize that fact.

You picked the verse … the verse says “believe” and “be baptized”. So you must reconcile why the verse has those words … I will rewrite the verse as you have interpreted it and leave the original.

Mark 16:16
“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Mark 16:16 revised

“He who has believed shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Tell me … do you honestly believe they say the same things? Remember you picked this verse to demonstrate your belief … so which version of Scripture do you hold to.