Someone can lose their salvation?

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This is not Catholic. It contradicts the Apostolic teaching. It is a corollary from the errant doctrine of total depravity conconcted by Calvin 1500 years after the Apostles.
You just said that it was Catholic teaching that we can’t come to Christ without His grace. Yet here you seem to change your mind because I said it’s not in our nature to come to Christ.

You do understand that I was talking about unregenerate man, don’t you? My two statements are the same. We can’t come by our own power to Jesus. We can’t do that because it’s not our nature to do so unless we are moved by grace. It would seem you would agree with this.

As for God calling all men that is not exactly true. Romans is quite clear that He may turn a hardened sinner over to their desire. In other words God may allow a person to follow their heart.
 
You just said that it was Catholic teaching that we can’t come to Christ without His grace. Yet here you seem to change your mind because I said it’s not in our nature to come to Christ.

You do understand that I was talking about unregenerate man, don’t you? My two statements are the same. We can’t come by our own power to Jesus. We can’t do that because it’s not our nature to do so unless we are moved by grace. It would seem you would agree with this.

As for God calling all men that is not exactly true. Romans is quite clear that He may turn a hardened sinner over to their desire. In other words God may allow a person to follow their heart.
Could God call all men and still allow them to follow their own desires?

Many (many as in all?) are called but few are chosen?
 
It is an interesting question isn’t it? 😉
Not really. I meant “sweet” with regard to someone actually trying to work the problem backwards. However you statement/question is not really analogous to whether or not someone can lose their salvation or not. If I am understanding your post correctly, I think you are referring to the damned in Hell. If I am correct then we are talking about apples and oranges, because the topic of “losing one’s salvation” refers only to thoise who have not yet physically died. Those who are in Purgatory and Heaven can not lose their salvation just as the damned in Hell can not lose their damnation. With respect to “losing your salvation”, it all happens on Earth in our lifetimes.

I could go on, but I don’t want to confuse NonCatholic. I am sure he is busy enough formulating responses (JUST KIDDING, NC!)😉

Anyway - I hope that clarifies my response.🙂
 
Cunning logic.

How can one disprove it!
I don’t think you can. I have heard this cunard incessantly from OSAS Christians. They say that someone is OSAS, and that person clains to be OSAS. But if they backslide, have any problems practicing the effects of the Holy Spirit in their lives, or happen to break the Ten Commandments on a semi-regular basis - then they never really were saved and it should be seen by their actions. If that’s the case, then who would ever be judged by God to enter Heaven? Unless of course Calvinist theology is the path of your spiritual thinking.

This is what makes discussion of these topics so problematic - there is no common ground on the issues that divide us because (however you want to say it) we disagree on the whys and wherefores of scripture in some places.

It sure would be interesting to see a forum dedicated to the things that Protestants/Evangelicals/Catholics agree on and maybe do some kind of tabulation of both the disagreements and the agreements and see where we stand.

But that is a venture designed for greater minds than mine!😃
 
You make a valid about not knowing till the end based on the post. I can’t think of a better way to put it other than to say that those that turn away had no real faith and those that the Lord has called will endure to the end because He is the one doing the sanctifying. This does not mean that one cannot know till the end if they are saved. The true servant knows whether or not they are saved. I will say with 100% certainty that I am going to be with the Lord immediately upon death.
Wow, NonCatholic! You are a man without Fear or Trembling - just like Daredevil from Marvel Comics. But that can’t hold any weight with you as praise - not because he is fictional, but because he is Catholic!😉

adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religion.html

(Can you believe that ther is actually a Captain Catechism?)
 
The only way I can describe it to you on a personal note. I can’t help but do good things, I do things I would have not even thought about if not for a regenerate heart. Many are the little things, but it is always thinking of the Lord and putting others before self. I’ll give an example that happened today. We recently had about 8 inches of snow with freezing rain in between. I was outside shoveling my half of the driveway so I could get to the grocery store to get milk and bread…told my spouse I’d be back in a few minutes, then and I saw my neighbor 3 doors down shoveling her driveway and her car was stuck at the bottom. So I stopped my shoveling and went over to help her. There was a lot of ice and it took about 45 minutes. We got her car up the driveway, but we needed to do the bottom where the snow plow went through. We worked another 10 minutes and told her that I try to finish it before she came home from work. I am still recovering from knee surgery in December and just had my 9th Epidermal Steroid Injection for my low back pain, so this is something I should not be doing, Before receiving Christ; I would not have helped her - seeing she would most likely get it done anyway and besides my back and knee are in pain and this would only make it worse, but now I can’t help myself; i would have to be in a state of total incapacitation not to see my neighbors need and not help…even then i might call another neighbor to help; whereas before i wouldn’t have done that.
OK. What would be YOUR reasoning for the good that is done by non-Christians and those whom you would consider “not saved”?
 
OK. What would be YOUR reasoning for the good that is done by non-Christians and those whom you would consider “not saved”?
Almost all people do good things; but it is the motive, the heart, as to why they do something good. Many people do it because of some selfish reason. May not appear selfish, but how often does one living a selfish life; reflect on their reason for doing anything. The Christian heart does it with a servants heart, not because they want to earn points with God, that would be the selfish heart, but because they love to do what is pleasing to God.
 
OSAS is a concept that is WAYYYY to dangerous a risk for me to take. My eternal soul will ultimately end up in one of two places…Heaven or hell. Hell is NOT the option I am preparing for.

Scripture is very clear that salvation is a process which lasts a life time (many on this forum smarter then me have already listed many bible verses that attest to that). For me to believe in OSAS, would be Spiritual Laziness on my part.

OSAS is a Feel Good concept and in my opinion.

Do NOT attack me on this nor take offense those of you who believe in this concept. This is MY opinion.

OSAS=Spiritual Laziness (again my opinion)
 
So, what’s Second Place in Heaven, then?:confused:
I don’t know. What keeps coming to mind on this is the parable in Luke 19:11-27 bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Luke%2019.11-27#ref=Lk%2019%3A11%E2%80%9327%2Chi%3DLk%2019%3A11-Lk%2019%3A27&ver=ESV

On that parable, there are 3 types of people, the faithful servants, the unfaithful servant (religious deceived), and the flat-out Christ rejecters. The same 3 types we find yesterday, today and tomorrow. The faithful are rewarded according to what they did with what was entrusted to them. What exactly that reward versus another, I do not know at this point.
 
OSAS is a concept that is WAYYYY to dangerous a risk for me to take. My eternal soul will ultimately end up in one of two places…Heaven or hell. Hell is NOT the option I am preparing for.

Scripture is very clear that salvation is a process which lasts a life time (many on this forum smarter then me have already listed many bible verses that attest to that). For me to believe in OSAS, would be Spiritual Laziness on my part.

OSAS is a Feel Good concept and in my opinion.

Do NOT attack me on this nor take offense those of you who believe in this concept. This is MY opinion.

OSAS=Spiritual Laziness (again my opinion)
There are many reasons for this, the primary cause of such a feeling is based on works righteousness mentality that shows a lack of understanding on what Scripture teaches. Also, it is possible that those feelings or concerns come from an unregenerate heart or an unbroken pattern of sin in ones life. I’m speaking of everyone.

Paul said it this way and I don’t think he was spiritually lazy.

Romans 6:1-4 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Please draw your attention to Romans 5.

Romans 5:1-51 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

May God bless you with his peace and joy of salvation!
 
The judgment for the saved is for rewards, which are probably more like accolades
Judgement is to decide who is worthy of rewards and why. The particular judgement is then a review of life and then either rewards (either heaven or purgatory) or damnation.

The reward/penalty is the outcome of the judgement … not the judgement.
the best reward is that one is in heaven with Jesus.
I agree.
On your second point; there are many who believe their saved, but are self deceived for many reasons, one of them is because they think they associate with the right religion. Matthew 7:13-14 speaks of the this along with other Scriptures.
Hence the need for judgement … I find it much too presumptous for you to decide whether you are either one, God’s judgment, given the totality of His knowledge, is much more just than any decision you could make here on earth. I believe one can be confident but let the game end before declaring victory.

Let God judge your heart and those of others … I find it odd that Jesus would say the tax collectors and prostitutes get into heaven before you, speaking of the Pharisees.

This, to me, tells us … any of us can be decieved as you describe. Be careful.

God waits till the end to either damn or glorify … why cant you wait?
 
I completely agree ( its the Word of God, of course I will agree) in everything Romans says. But the original question was: “Someone can lose their salvation?” and that is a huge YES!!

We can be baptised-confirmed-altar call (btw, I do an Altar Call everytime I receive Jesus in the Eucharist:thumbsup: ), we can do all those things believing we are saved, but somewhere down the line we make the decision to go Against what Jesus taught, both by way of scripture and His Church and our salvation is lost (unless we repent of course).

St. Paul was hardly spiritually lazy which is why he taught so strongly that we must continue to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.

I Have Been Saved: ROM 8:24
I Am Being Saved: PHIL 2:12
I Will Be Saved: MT 10:22

👍 I just love St. Paul.
 
You just said that it was Catholic teaching that we can’t come to Christ without His grace.
Yes. this is the teaching we have received from the Apostles. No one comes to HIm unless the Father calls.
Yet here you seem to change your mind because I said it’s not in our nature to come to Christ.
I think it probably seems that way because we have a difference of understanding about the nature of man. You have been led astray from the Apostolic teaching by the errors of the Reformation.
You do understand that I was talking about unregenerate man, don’t you?
Yes. The contamination of the understanding of the nature of man that has occurred as a result of Calvanism has made the Apostolic Teaching seem to modern Protestants as “a diffferent gospel”.
My two statements are the same.
They are the same in your mind because you have a different understanding of what the words meant than the apostles taught.
We can’t come by our own power to Jesus. We can’t do that because it’s not our nature to do so unless we are moved by grace. It would seem you would agree with this.
Except for the fact that we understand our “nature” differently, yes.
As for God calling all men that is not exactly true. Romans is quite clear that He may turn a hardened sinner over to their desire.
So,you think “all” does not really mean “all”?

God will turn over any hardened sinner that refuses to respond to the call. He wants sons, not slaves.
In other words God may allow a person to follow their heart.
Yes. But, He shed sufficient light into ever heart so that each one has a choice.
 
Almost all people do good things; but it is the motive, the heart, as to why they do something good. Many people do it because of some selfish reason. May not appear selfish, but how often does one living a selfish life; reflect on their reason for doing anything. The Christian heart does it with a servants heart, not because they want to earn points with God, that would be the selfish heart, but because they love to do what is pleasing to God.
So anyone who you would consider to be “unsaved” ONLY does good for selfish reasons?
 
Hi, NonCatholic,

I would have said it a bit differently… but, in my opinin, love4mary was right on target: Scripture and/or Faith alone is not the path identified by God in either the Old or New Testaments.

Considering we are talking about nothing less then one’s immortal soul - and where it will be speding all of eternity, it is probably a good idea to get it straight to begin with and then work through it. As opposed to throwing together a couple of out-of-context scriptural quotes and just hoping for the best. Hmmm… maybe that really is laziness…😃

If the Bible is to be the ONLY source then it must not only act as its own reference, but must have evidence of completeness. The Bible was never designed for such a feat - while important, it is not everything. To say that, “The Bible Is Not Enough” is a hypothesis that requires proof to stand up in a debate. Let me offer some proofs, but first one quick definitions:

Bible: A collection of writings which the Church of God has solemnly recognized as inspired. (admittedly brief - but, for those interested in a more thorough definition go to: newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm

Anyone making a claim that something is something must substantiate the claim. The Burden of Proof always rests with those making the claim. For example, Christ claimed He is God. He just did not make a statement and sit down, rather, He fulfilled all of the prophet’s statements, He performed super-natural signs, He foretold His own Death and Rising, and He founded His Church. In short, Christ proved His Statement.

1- The Bible, as essentially a collection of Books, was not finished (St. John writing the Book of Revelations) until around the year 95A.D.) and determined to be complete (only inspired books are contained in it) and the canon closed around 385A.D. This action was re-affirmed by the Council of Trent in 1546 ( newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm)).

2- There is no place in the Bible that says the Bible is the only source of truth. Merely saying, as St. Paul does, that all scripture is inspired and is profitable and beneficial for many things ( 2 Tim 3:16) is not the same as saying it is everything.

3- Jesus Christ, the Apostles and St. Paul verbally instructed and gave example those who wanted to become Christians. This is known as oral revelation and is of equal importance as the Bible. We see the following examples of oral revelation (non-written) in the Gospels as:
a.) Matt 28:20 - “…observe all I have commanded…”(not written)
b.) Mark 16:15 - Christ tells the apostles to preach (not write)
c.) Luke 1:1-4 - Luke acknowledges the faithful have already received the teachings. He is writing his Gospel to supplement it.
d.) John 24:25 - Possibly the most damning statement concerning SS: John tells his readers that not everything has been written down.

There are also several areas in the Epistles that identify that preacing and giving good example were used - as opposed to written letter.

a.) 1Cor 11:2 - “…Hold fast to the traditions I have handed on to you…” (non-written)
b.) Phil 4: 9 - keep on doing what you have seen me do
c.) Col 4: 16 - Paul had written a letter to the folks in Laodicea - but, it is not part of the canon (I guess it was lost?) yet he references this item that is no not part of the Bible.
d.) 1Thes 2:13 - “…When you received the world of God, which you heard from us…”

Many more proofs can be given about oral tradition being what moved the Apostles to preach form Pentecost Sunday forward. It was word of mouth and actions that caused the early CC to grow.

In brief, there simply is no evidence to support scripture alone is the answer. And, this is truly an issue that addresses salvation and how we approach Christ.

Merely saying scripture alone - as the ‘Reformers’ attempted to do in an effort to break away from the CC - the Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter as the Rock, is not evidence. There simply is no objective evidence form Scripture itself that supports this position. We have not addressed the ECF and their approach to both Scripture and Tradition as safeguarded by the CC.

God bless,
There are many reasons for this, the primary cause of such a feeling is based on works righteousness mentality that shows a lack of understanding on what Scripture teaches. Also, it is possible that those feelings or concerns come from an unregenerate heart or an unbroken pattern of sin in ones life. I’m speaking of everyone.

Paul said it this way and I don’t think he was spiritually lazy.

Romans 6:1-4 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Please draw your attention to Romans 5.

Romans 5:1-51 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

May God bless you with his peace and joy of salvation!
 
I don’t know. What keeps coming to mind on this is the parable in Luke 19:11-27 bible.logos.com/passage/esv/Luke%2019.11-27#ref=Lk%2019%3A11%E2%80%9327%2Chi%3DLk%2019%3A11-Lk%2019%3A27&ver=ESV

On that parable, there are 3 types of people, the faithful servants, the unfaithful servant (religious deceived), and the flat-out Christ rejecters. The same 3 types we find yesterday, today and tomorrow. The faithful are rewarded according to what they did with what was entrusted to them. What exactly that reward versus another, I do not know at this point.
I guess I never viewed this parable as meaning that there is a winner’s circle/champion’s stand ala The Olympics, where some of the saved get to live in a better section of Heaven. The prodigal son received even greater accolades even though he had been a “rejector”, at which his brother expressed jealousy/contempt. Hopefully the brother was able to see things from his father’s point of view and rejoice in the prodigal’s return. If not, it seems as if your views could set up a heirarchy among the saved in Heaven. I may be unaware, but I have never heard such an idea.
 
And totally wrong. 👍
I klnow that is what you believe, NC.

Then why is it you continue to cast your pearls of understanding before the swine of this site?

Sure you feel that you need to convert them for a while. But if we choose to remain in our error and obstinance, I would think that Scripture says to move on.

However, I am sure that you will be able to produce a sniglet of scripture to the contrary.
 
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