Someone can lose their salvation?

[Protestant101]

Great topic.

Can wait for NC and Protestant101 to show up.

No where does the Bible teach that our responsibility and accountability ends when we become a Christian. Christianity is more than a single, one time decision. Many are deceived into thinking they can talk the talk without really walking the walk.

**

2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire**. ****
**

Eze 18:23

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
**
**

Heb 10:23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:
Heb 10:24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;** ****

As I was researching this topic a bit to formulate my ideas, I came across an interesting account of two “men of God” who had an amazing incident take place between them. One day, John Darby was preaching on “eternal security” in Dwight L Moody’s church of Cicago. His Calvinistic emphasis on OSAS was so strong, that Moody felt impressed to interupt him. “Mr Darby” he asked; “Are you saying that if we turn our backs on the light of the gospel, that we will still be saved?” “Yes,” responded Mr Darby. “The light will shine on our backs!”

But where, pray tell, does the Bible come right out and say that even when we turn our backs on “the truth” that we can still be saved?

“When the RIGHTEOUS turneth away…” (Ez.18:24) “in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”

Conversely, the Bible offers hope to sinners:

Pro 24:16 For a RIGHTEOUS man falleth seven times, and riseth up again;

 

[DD2007]

I could never worship a God who damns on a whim-- think about it, people created just to rot in Hell. I could never believe in God that way. And plus you have no way of knowing if you really were the ones predestined for Heaven. You could die, and expect Heaven and be suffering in Hell for eternity.

God is the creator. He knows what he is doing. That is basically Calvinism in a nutshell.

Life is worth living. God is in control. He knows exactly what is going to happen to all of us. He has always known it and the results are simply His good will because he is soverign.

Who are we to judge God? He has given us life. That is all we have. We began in oblivion. Thank God for His love, mercy and grace.

 

[guanophore]

Presumptuous for a Catholic; can be considered a sin. Honestly, in your heart of hearts, does God want us to have the joy of security or the confusion of are we or aren’t we?

I think that God wants us to have joy in Himself, and not our notions of our own sense of security. I dont’ see any less confusion in the OSAS model, since people are taught that, if they behavior in an unchristian manner, or “fall away” then they were never saved in the first place. I have often had people tell me the “went forward” and got saved “at least ten times”. If this is not a reflection of unknowing and insecurity, what is?

However, I agree with you that poorly catechized Catholics can, and do, worry or are confused when they ought not be.

At a minimum I don’t see how one can say they have free will to accept God when they can’t move toward God without God’s grace. Left on their own they don’t have the ability to choose…so I guess I wouldn’t describe a will that can’t choose w/out help as being free.

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him…”

It is pretty simple, really. God created us with freedom, then He offers us choices. When He draws us by His grace, we are in a position to choose life, or death.

God created Adam and Eve with free will, and gave them choices. They chose to be disobedient. Had they chose to obey Him, that would not mean they lost their free will.

Every single person in the world is saved by the blood of Christ on the Cross. Even those who never heard of Him. He died for ALL

He paid the price for all, but not all decide to get into the bag and go home with him after he bought them.

Catholics don’t use the term “saved” in the same way OSASers do. We say ALL are saved, but only those that participate in Christ’s Body will go to Heaven. Those who don’t lose their salvation and go to Hell.

I have never heard or read anything Catholic that sounds like this.

I think this is a form of universalism that is not consistent with the Apostolic teaching.

 

[guanophore]

LOL, I have been chuckling over this new word that I learned!! Where did you pick that up??

Here! I got it last year from a Canadian posting on CAF, but recently heard Hagrid use it on one of the Harry Potter movies and it was on my mind when I read that post.

 

[guanophore]

In reverence for God in your works - part of sanctification process; nothing to do with justification.

The Catholic Church teaches that there is nothing we can do to initially be made right with God. It is only by His grace that we are put into right relationship with Him. After that, we are justified by our works of faith, and our works of righteousness become an avenue through which grace flows. Catholics don’t separate salvation into parts the way our Reformed brethren do. We believe the same grace that justifies is the grace that produces the good works that perfect our faith.

Keep reminding me to respond in full to this post; I don’t have the energy or time right now that it will take to give a complete rebuttal.

That was the main thing I wanted when I started the thread.

I will say this, some of these passages are speaking of professing Christians as opposed to a possessing Christians.

I am sure this will make an interesting discussion.

Running the race to win is part of the sanctification process; those that endure to the end are true believers the one’s that don’t will fall away because when their faith is actually tested, they fall away because they were possessors.

It sounds good, but in fact, Scripture makes no distinction between “true believers” and other believers. This is a modern invention.

There is nothing there that indicates that anyone loses there salvation; this would be contrary to the teaching of Scripture and Scripture does not contradict itself.

I agree. I think it is a poor grammatical construction. The Scripture and the Apostolic Teaching are clear that salvation is not completed until we are glorified. We enter into eternal life at Baptism, and strive throughout life to lay hold of that which has laid hold of us. That is why we don’t presume to save we are “saved” in the fashion that is used by our separated brethren.

I agree! This is very Catholic of you to say.

Thanks for the link and you just gave yourself the kiss of death for making that pronouncement…God bless ya!

I agree, but the kiss won’t be from CAF.

Don’t worry, though, we have had www.monergism.com here until we are ready to puke. It is no news.

No where does the Bible teach

This is true. the Bible does not “teach”. People teach. Jesus appointed teachers for the church because the documents dont “teach” themselves.

Most of the misundertanding about the nature of salvation has emanated from the falsehood that the bible is able to teach.

Many are deceived into thinking they can talk the talk without really walking the walk.

I agree. I think OSAS has helped with this deception.

 

[sodak]

I will say this, some of these passages are speaking of professing Christians as opposed to a possessing Christians.

I gotta be the first to ask… Where is THAT in the Bible?

 

[SemperReformada]

guanaphore:

It is pretty simple, really. God created us with freedom, then He offers us choices. When He draws us by His grace, we are in a position to choose life, or death.

That doesn’t address what I said in my post.

I made the point that we can’t come to God unless he first calls us. It’s not in our nature.
guanaphore:

God created Adam and Eve with free will, and gave them choices. They chose to be disobedient. Had they chose to obey Him, that would not mean they lost their free will.

I agree, Adam and Eve had free will but we aren’t Adam and Eve.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Could you give me a link, please?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=305929

 

[NonCatholic]

Verb, Action. fall away from what? SALVATION Your own words, man.

I hope you understand and if you don’t I will tell you so you cannot say you did not know the truth, but chose not to believe it. If anyone does not endure to the end, they prove they were not saved to begin with and likewise the one’s that do endure in obedience to Christ prove that they are saved. No one can lose something they never had to begin with.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I hope you understand and if you don’t I will tell you so you cannot say you did not know the truth, but chose not to believe it. If anyone does not endure to the end, they prove they were not saved to begin with and likewise the one’s that do endure in obedience to Christ prove that they are saved. No one can lose something they never had to begin with.

Fall away. You were somewhere and then you fell away. Salvation is a process, not a one time event. Nowhere in the Bible does it say it’s a one time event. St Paul tells us to persevere. St James tells us faith without works is dead. Jesus tells us the meek will inherit the Kingdom. Jesus condemns the people who don’t DO His will, feed the poor. Faith is a verb. We must LIVE our faith.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

This is a tricky argument that is being offered - mainly because, by its very nature it is unproveable.

I hope you understand and if you don’t I will tell you so you cannot say you did not know the truth, but chose not to believe it. If anyone does not endure to the end, they prove they were not saved to begin with and likewise the one’s that do endure in obedience to Christ prove that they are saved. No one can lose something they never had to begin with.

We may have a hunch - even a very strong idea - about someone who we think is a current resident in Hell (died unsaved) but, there is no proof anyone can offer. For example, we may think that Judas is eternally lost - but, that is only an interpretation of Christ’s words about woe for Judas because of his betrayal. (Luke 22:22) Why? Because, this would negate Judas’ free will and the possibility that he repented before he died. No doubt about it - Judas was a bad actor and set a horrid example - but, in Hell? We really do not know.

The CC takes quite a different approach - there are people who were really good actors and set amazing examples of faith, charity, long-suffering - you name it - they excelled in doing good by cooperating with the Grace of God. These folks are canonized saints. Frieds of God, yes, indeed - but, the CC identifies that they are in fact in heaven - no guess work on this one, no speculation as to how it turned out.

Arguments such as, “They never had salvation to begin with…” are just a waste of time - and worse. How can we possibly know that? Additionally, they take our eyes off of Christ and invite us to engage in meaningless speculation. There is only one person that Christ is recorded as proclaiming he was in Heaven - and that was the Good Thief! Christ was rather quiet on everyone else. And, there is no recorded passage where Christ said to or of someone, “They are going to Hell!”

So, given that St. Paul admitted that his salvation was not assured - that he had to continue with the race until the end or else he himself would become a castaway - (1Cor 9:27) - what are we to do?

The honest answer is not to focus on this ‘whose saved and whose not’ flight of dark imagination…a la Calvin. Follow the example of the Apostles and continue to focus on Christ. Follow St. Paul who kept marching towards his Savior. Everything else is just vanity.

God bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

Every single person in the world is saved by the blood of Christ on the Cross. Even those who never heard of Him. He died for ALLCatholics don’t use the term “saved” in the same way OSASers do. We say ALL are saved, but only those that participate in Christ’s Body will go to Heaven. Those who don’t lose their salvation and go to Hell.

I
I have never heard or read anything Catholic that sounds like this.

I think this is a form of universalism that is not consistent with the Apostolic teaching.

Let me know if I am misreading the Catechism. I googled the below quickly as one example. But I was always taught that Jesus died for everyone, even those that don’t know him. I didn’t google the Catechim, though.

The Credo of the People of God
Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968

newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm

*We believe that in Adam all have sinned, which means that the original offense committed by him caused human nature, common to all men, to fall to a state in which it bears the consequences of that offense, and which is not the state in which it was at first in our first parents–established as they were in holiness and justice, and in which man knew neither evil nor death. It is human nature so fallen stripped of the grace that clothed it, injured in its own natural powers and subjected to the dominion of death, that is transmitted to all men, and it is in this sense that every man is born in sin. We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin, is transmitted with human nature, “not by imitation, but by propagation” and that it is thus “proper to everyone.”[21]

We believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ, by the sacrifice of the cross redeemed us from original sin and all the personal sins committed by each one of us, so that, in accordance with the word of the apostle, “where sin abounded grace did more abound.”*
the Lord Jesus forms His Church by means of the sacraments emanating from His plenitude.[25] By these she makes her members participants in the Mystery of the Death and Resurrection of Christ, in the grace of the Holy Spirit who gives her life and movement
Recognizing also the existence, **outside the organism of the Church of Christ of numerous elements of truth and sanctification **which belong to her as her own and tend to Catholic unity,[31] and believing in the action of the Holy Spirit who stirs up in the heart of the disciples of Christ love of this unity,[32] we entertain the hope that the Christians who are not yet in the full communion of the one only Church will one day be reunited in one flock with one only shepherd.

We believe that the Church is necessary for salvation, because Christ, who is the sole mediator and way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church.[33**] But the divine design of salvation embraces all men, and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Hi, NonCatholic,

This is a tricky argument that is being offered - mainly because, by its very nature it is unproveable.

{snip}

The honest answer is not to focus on this ‘whose saved and whose not’ flight of dark imagination…a la Calvin. Follow the example of the Apostles and continue to focus on Christ. Follow St. Paul who kept marching towards his Savior. Everything else is just vanity.

God bless

Good post. I do learn a lot by engaging in these discussions. They shore up my faith

 

[sodak]

I hope you understand and if you don’t I will tell you so you cannot say you did not know the truth, but chose not to believe it. If anyone does not endure to the end, they prove they were not saved to begin with and likewise the one’s that do endure in obedience to Christ prove that they are saved. No one can lose something they never had to begin with.

Sounds like a works salvation. So you truly don’t know until the end of your life, do you.

Then again, you ignore all of my posts, why should you answer this one, right?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Sounds like a works salvation. So you truly don’t know until the end of your life, do you.

Then again, you ignore all of my posts, why should you answer this one, right?

That’s what I got out of that too.

 

[po18guy]

Two scenarios:

1. We assume we can lose our salvation and do everything we can to keep it.
2. We assume we cannot lose our salvation and therefore do little or nothing to preserve it.

I, for one, would prefer to err on the side of caution - especially with so much scriptural support.

 

[elvisman]

Sounds like a works salvation. So you truly don’t know until the end of your life, do you.

Then again, you ignore all of my posts, why should you answer this one, right?

**They just don’t get it, Or worse yet - they refuse to get it. **

 

[The_Smiter]

Can a reprobate lose their damnation?

Sweet!

 

[DD2007]

Sweet!

It is an interesting question isn’t it?

 

[Matariel]

I hope you understand and if you don’t I will tell you so you cannot say you did not know the truth, but chose not to believe it.** If anyone does not endure to the end, they prove they were not saved to begin with **and likewise the one’s that do endure in obedience to Christ prove that they are saved. No one can lose something they never had to begin with.

Show me where the embolded phrase is presented in the Bible.