Someone can lose their salvation?

[Matariel]

But they do; once you go in that direction, then the traditions become as or more important than Christ. Look at the history of Christian religion.

Your point was? Scripture is just one facet of Sacred Tradition. Before the Catholic Church defined the canon with the synods of Hippo and Carthage in the 300’s (and ultimately in the Council of Trent) the Church had a vague notion of which books were to be had in the churches, but some considers books like the Shepherd of Hermas to be inspired, while others rejected inspired books like Revelation, II Peter, and others. Before that all they had was the reliance on the Sacred Tradition and teaching as handed down by the bishops and presbyters.

When did God say the Catholic church was infallible; I don’t recall that one. When has the HS took up resident within an institution; I thought He took resident with individual believers that make up a body with “each member” contributing by the direction of the Head.

Such was never the understanding of the Apostles, or the ones whom they taught, the early Church Fathers, such as St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp, and St. Peter’s disciple, St. Clement of Rome, who succeded Peter and Linus as the Bishop of Rome (Pope).

staycatholic.com/early_church_fathers.htm

Quote: “The Church has the authority to add and subtract from the Bible.”
Is that Catholic or did you just step out of bounds?

No, I think this could be phrased better. The Catholic Church has the authority to determine what comprised the Bible-- that’s what Guanophore meant.

Ordinance: An authoritative command or order. Yes I believe we are commanded to be Baptized and to partake in the Lords Supper; so yes “ordinance” is the correct term.

Then don’t get all up tight when we speak of the Holy Sacraments or the Holy Mysteries.

I assume you are speaking of the Catholic Church. I don’t remember a religious institution being God-breathed, but I do know that Scripture is God-breathed.

In the Bible it states of the Catholic Church “that the gate of Hell will not prevail against it” and that it is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”. Also, the Church is held together by the unity of St. Peter (and his successors of course) whom the Lord promised that his faith would not fail. It was to Peter that the Lord charged to tend and feed his sheep; all the other sects have abandoned this reliance on the Lord’s shepherd, save the Catholic Church.

According to your learning, but not according to the Bible.

Back up your statement, please, with evidence.

I apologize; I believe it is the work of the devil because there are few representatives on both sides, if you will, that speak contrary to both positions and try to represent those they do not necessarily represent. This causes confusion in my opinion.

Closeness of heart, and the realization that the other side may be right is what causes confusion in a dialogue.

 

[NonCatholic]

You need to read what guanophore wrote again.

He stated you were not attacking the Scriptures.

God bless

See post#173 for the proper context.

 

[Matariel]

That cracks me up to, you say I attack because I tell you the truth of the Bible.

Since when did you become an arbiter of biblical truth? You’re pushing your own understanding, your own private interpretation of the Scripture.

And, between you, and the 2,000-year-old Church founded by Christ on St. Peter and the Apostles (the Church which Christ said “the gates of Hell would not prevail against”) I think I’ll take the Church’s interpretation over your private interpretation.

 

[guanophore]

But they do; once you go in that direction, then the traditions become as or more important than Christ. Look at the history of Christian religion.

The Sacred Traditions are not more important that Christ. They manifest Him through His Church to the world. They are the Life of God present in the Church.

The history of Christianity shows us how fallen men are always in need of reform. The Sacred tradition - the Life of Christ present in the Church, never needs reform. Like the Scripture, it has it’s Source in God.

What non “sacred tradition” did they follow;

There were many customs and pious practices, such as synagogue services that they all attended and participated in. The Synagogue service is not mandated by Mosaic Law.

Paul took vows:

Acts 18:18

After staying there for a considerable time, Paul said farewell to the believers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had his hair cut, for he was under a vow.

And encouraged others to do so:

Acts 21:23-24
We have four men who are under a vow. 24 Join these men, go through the rite of purification with them, and pay for the shaving of their heads

These are pious practices.

The Feast of the Lights, also not prescribed in Mosaic Law, was attended by Christ and His apostles.

I remember Jesus chastising the religious leaders for this very thing (i.e healing on the Sabbath ,not doing the ceremonial washing before eating, eating with tax collectors - had to throw that one in there.)

I think you mean to say that they criticized Him for not keeping their traditions. Yes, whenever a “pious practice” contradicted God’s revelation, or missed the point, Jesus drew attention to it, when it did not, He supported it.

The Seat of Moses is one that He supported.

When did God say the Catholic church was infallible; I don’t recall that one.

He said He would send HIs Spirit to lead them into all Truth, that the gates of Hell would not prevail, and that He would remain with them until the end of time. The Church is upheld by the Power of HIs Word. She is preserved by the strength of HIs might. He is her Head, that is what makes her infallible.

When has the HS took up resident within an institution;

The Church is His Body. It is more properly described as an organism.

I thought He took resident with individual believers that make up a body with “each member” contributing by the direction of the Head.

This is also true.

The Church has the authority to add and subtract from the Bible.

  Is that Catholic or did you just step out of bounds?

There was no “Bible” until it was assembled by the Church. The Church sifted through 400+ documents floating about at the time, claiming to be inspired. She subtracted all but 27, then closed the NT canon. She paired these 27 books with the Alexandrian canon to create what we know of as the Bible. This was done by the inspiration and authority given to the Church by Christ.

   Is this Catholic?

That the Scripture is a collection of Holy Writings used to support the Gospel? Of course. The Bible even says this about itself!

   Ordinance: An authoritative command or order.  Yes I believe we are commanded to be Baptized and to partake in the Lords Supper; so yes "ordinance" is the correct term.

Ok. I should not quibble about extrabibilical terms.

    I assume you are speaking of the Catholic Church.  I don't remember a religious institution being God breathed, but I do know that Scripture is God breathed.  :thumbsup:

John 20:21-23
As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The only other time God “breathed” like this was at the creation. Here, He creates His Body on earth, the Church. He breathed into the Church the breath of life. Later, the HS came upon them with power. The Church did not stop being God-breathed when some of the teaching was committed to writing.

According to your learning, but not according to the Bible.

On the contrary, it is clear that the NT is comprised entirely of the teachings of the Apostles and their disciples, which constitute the Catholic Church.

    Since, the Bible comes from His mouth; how do you separate the two?

There is no need to do so. The Scriptures lead us to the Person of Christ, by whose blood we are saved from our sins.

   I apologize; I believe it is the work of the devil because there are few representatives on both sides, if you will, that speak contrary to both positions and try to represent those they do not necessarily represent.  This causes confusion in my opinion.

Yes, confusion only has one source.

 

[NonCatholic]

When did God say the Catholic church was infallible; I don’t recall that one. When has the HS took up resident within an institution; I thought He took resident with individual believers that make up a body with “each member” contributing by the direction of the Head.

Such was never the understanding of the Apostles, or the ones whom they taught, the early Church Fathers, such as St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp, and St. Peter’s disciple, St. Clement of Rome, who succeded Peter and Linus as the Bishop of Rome (Pope).

Is this Catholic? Do you actually believe that?

No, I think this could be phrased better. The Catholic Church has the authority to determine what comprised the Bible-- that’s what

Learn something new everyday…thanks.

Then don’t get all up tight when we speak of the Holy Sacraments or the Holy Mysteries.

Never even heard of “Holy Mysteries”? learned two new things…thanks again.

In the Bible it states of the Catholic Church “that the gate of Hell will not prevail against it” and that it is “the pillar and foundation of the truth”. Also, the Church is held together by the unity of St. Peter (and his successors of course) whom the Lord promised that his faith would not fail. It was to Peter that the Lord charged to tend and feed his sheep; all the other sects have abandoned this reliance on the Lord’s shepherd, save the Catholic Church.

:banghead: uch: :dts: :ehh:

 

[guanophore]

That cracks me up to, you say I attack because I tell you the truth of the Bible.

You are telling us the truth according to Non. It is truthfully how you read and understand the Bible.

This is the third parenthetical warning in the Book of Hebrews given in very specific terms to a group who have intellectually responded to the Gospel, who have, on the outside, made a profession of faith in Christ, but who are not real believers.They know the truth. They believe it. They even follow some of the patterns of Christians, but they aren’t for real; and they are warned periodically through the Book of Hebrews that they better be for real lest having heard the Gospel so much and become so familiar with it, they find themselves falling away into an evil heart of unbelief, and it is impossible for them to be saved. Nothing to do with the assurance of salvation; more to do with the assurance of destruction.

I think this is how the Calvanists need to render it, in order to support the theology that one cannot fall from faith. However, this letter, like all the others in the NT, is written to believers.

Look at this salutation:

Heb 3:1

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, holy partners in a heavenly calling”

Partakers, those who have been enlightened, and tasted of the heavenly gift. Non-believers were not admitted to the Lord’s Supper. They had to remain outside until they had received initiation into the Church.

We cannot become “holy partners” without being joined to the Body.

Heb 3:13-14
14 For we have become partners of Christ…

This cannot happen when one is outside of Christ.

Heb 4:2-3
2 For indeed the good news came to us just as to them; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

The author addresses the recipients of the letter as “us”, “partners”, brothers and sisters, and in this passage, distinguishes the recipients of the letter from those who heard the message but did not respond in faith.

“We who have believed”. Does this sound like outsiders to you?

Heb 4:14

Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.

This is the confession of faith that is made at baptism. Believers were washed in water “calling upon His name”. This is the entrance rite into the Kingdom. Jesus has already been embraced as a great high priest. They just need to “hold fast”.

One cannot “apostasize” when one has not been attached by faith. You can’t let go and fall away from something to which you are not clinging. In order to be apostate, one must have embraced the faith in the first place.

 

[Matariel]

The Church has the authority to add and subtract from the Bible.

Guanophore, don’t you mean the Church has the authority to determine what comprises the Bible?

 

[Matariel]

NonCatholic, make sure you look at post #180 by me.

You may have missed it. Be sure to check out the link about the early Christian writings too.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore, don’t you mean the Church has the authority to determine what comprises the Bible?

Yes, thanks. However, there were books considered inspired that were later subtracted from liturgical use when the canon was closed. Your phrasing is more clear.

 

[NonCatholic]

Since when did you become an arbiter of biblical truth? You’re pushing your own understanding, your own private interpretation of the Scripture.

And, between you, and the 2,000-year-old Church founded by Christ on St. Peter and the Apostles (the Church which Christ said “the gates of Hell would not prevail against”) I think I’ll take the Church’s interpretation over your private interpretation.

Since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What about you; have you received the arbitrator of the the Word?

 

[NonCatholic]

You are telling us the truth according to Non. It is truthfully how you read and understand the Bible.

I think this is how the Calvanists need to render it, in order to support the theology that one cannot fall from faith. However, this letter, like all the others in the NT, is written to believers.

Look at this salutation:

Heb 3:1

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, holy partners in a heavenly calling”

Partakers, those who have been enlightened, and tasted of the heavenly gift. Non-believers were not admitted to the Lord’s Supper. They had to remain outside until they had received initiation into the Church.

We cannot become “holy partners” without being joined to the Body.

Heb 3:13-14
14 For we have become partners of Christ…

This cannot happen when one is outside of Christ.

Heb 4:2-3
2 For indeed the good news came to us just as to them; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

The author addresses the recipients of the letter as “us”, “partners”, brothers and sisters, and in this passage, distinguishes the recipients of the letter from those who heard the message but did not respond in faith.

“We who have believed”. Does this sound like outsiders to you?

Heb 4:14

Since, then, we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.

This is the confession of faith that is made at baptism. Believers were washed in water “calling upon His name”. This is the entrance rite into the Kingdom. Jesus has already been embraced as a great high priest. They just need to “hold fast”.

One cannot “apostasize” when one has not been attached by faith. You can’t let go and fall away from something to which you are not clinging. In order to be apostate, one must have embraced the faith in the first place.

This would be your misunderstanding. This is spoken to a group of Jews who had received and believed, but were in danger of falling away back to the old Jewish tradition; thus in danger negating what that had come to know concerning Jesus. They are the “did not stick around crowd because they were not of us crowd” - paraphrased of course. The more attached to religion the less one seems to understand; just like the Pharisees, Scribes, and their followers in Jesus day. It proves and validates my faith in Jesus and the truth of the Bible. It is bitter-sweet though, but is helpful to my understanding of Catholicism.

 

[NonCatholic]

The Sacred Traditions are not more important that Christ. They manifest Him through His Church to the world. They are the Life of God present in the Church.

Then, according to the Church, they are as important as Jesus?

There were many customs and pious practices, such as synagogue services that they all attended and participated in. The Synagogue service is not mandated by Mosaic Law.

Paul took vows:

Acts 18:18

After staying there for a considerable time, Paul said farewell to the believers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. At Cenchreae he had his hair cut, for he was under a vow.

Remember this. We think of Paul as a Christian. Before Paul was ever a Christian, he was Jew. Every bit a Jew. Absolutely engulfed and entrenched in Judaism. You know, he is sort of a superhuman character. Everything he said was right. Everything he did was right. He was a man. This passage shows us his humanity. He had just as tough a time making the transition as anybody else did.

Paul was yes, in every whit a Christian. Being a Christian is a momentary miracle, but the transition takes time and old features of Judaism died slowly even in Paul’s life. By the time he gets to the Book of Philippians, a lot more of them have died off. He says, after saying that, “I was a Jew, and I was a Hebrew, I was a Hebrew and a Pharisee and all,” he says in the next verse, “But what things were gained in me? Those I–” what? “Counted lost.”

In other words, (paraphrase) “those things used to be what made up my life, but I let them go, and I considered only Christ. From now on, I’m not interested in ceremonies. I’m not interested in rituals. I only know one thing–I want to know Him.” That’s what he said to the Colossians. That’s all. “I want the excellency of the knowledge of Christ.”

John 20:21-23
As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The only other time God “breathed” like this was at the creation. Here, He creates His Body on earth, the Church. He breathed into the Church the breath of life. Later, the HS came upon them with power. The Church did not stop being God-breathed when some of the teaching was committed to writing.

That’s some interpretation. It wasn’t until 8 days later that these individual men, not an organism/institution, received the Holy Spirit.

The Scriptures lead us to the Person of Christ, by whose blood we are saved from our sins.

Very Christian!

 

[ncgolf]

There are two judgments; one for rewards-the righteous and one for hot, hotter and hottest spot in hell. One is the Bema seat and the other the great white throne. I don’t see the concept of purgatory in the NT or OT unless “present with the Lord” is not heaven.

A quality of going through of going through or even receiving a judgement is a certain amount of uncertainess … whether it be a reward or not. If you could say … I have faith that God will judge me justly … you put the faith in God, a total trust in our most vulnerable hour … otherwise you trust in yourself.

Paul said it better than I ever could, because it is the Holy Spirit speaking.

I have no doubt in your faith … none but in Corinthians 13:13 Paul seems to think of love as the greatest of all the virtues.

What are you paraphrasing from? I am a tax collector…LOL

Matthew 21:31 … what a coincidence … maybe I should change careers … … now I know why you are so confident!

Only the deceived are deceived.

That seems circular … it seems those in most peril are those who think they are in the least peril. Peter warns about this in 1 Peter 5:8-9. Those with the most to gain also have the most to lose. Peter seems to think even those in the faith are in peril … for he reminds us to “remain steadfast in faith” indicating those already in the faith are in peril.

 

[guanophore]

Since when did you become an arbiter of biblical truth? You’re pushing your own understanding, your own private interpretation of the Scripture.

Since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. What about you; have you received the arbitrator of the the Word?

So, what you are basically saying is that, when you received the HS into your heart, you became the Arbiter of Biblical Truth.

Therefore, your interpetation is not longer private, but is the emanation of the Arbiter within you?

Interesting that Scripture, which you say you hold as the final authority, does not support this assertion.

In fact, that same scripture that you claim to be illumined by so perfectly states that Jesus made the Church the arbiter of disputes on interpretation.

I will agree that the indwelling spirit desires to lead us each into all truth. However, He does that in unity with the authority appointed by christ.

The Apostles were authorized by Christ to arbitrate. they passed this duty to their successors:

Acts 20:28
28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls and will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with sighing — for that would be harmful to you.
Heb 13:17

The reformers decided that this was not necessary, and rebelled against the leadership, dividing the Church. They started the movement of which you are now a pristine example. They made themselves arbiters in place of those appointed by God, believing that they could do it better, just as you do.

None seem to realize that God’s directive to obey the leadership He appointed, and to submit to them, will bring HIs grace, and unity to the Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m pretty sure the article you posted by Steve Ray on Jamnia clearly states that there is no evidence that the council of Jamnia ever discussed the books you call the deutero’s.

You say one thing in the above post and post a link to an article that completely disputes your position…

You raise a valid point, and I will email Steve Ray to ask him about that.

However, Steve also makes the following statement:
“Many Protestants accept the Jewish opposition to the Catholic canon of Scripture because it supports them in their anti-Catholicism. Catholics, on the other hand, have accepted the determination and canon of the new covenant people of God, those who are the new priesthood (cf. 1 Pet. 2:9), the new wineskin.”
This rejection of the Deuterocanonicals due to their support of Catholic doctrine was the main point I was making. Steve goes on to say:
Protestant author Paul Achtemeier tells us, “Eastern and Roman Catholic tradition generally considered the Old Testament ‘apocryphal’ books to be canonical. It was not until the Protestant Reformation that these books were clearly denied canonical status (in Protestant circles). The Roman church, however, continues to affirm their place in the canon of Scripture” (Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1st ed. [Harper & Row, c1985], 69).

I think it is safe to say that we know with certainty that the Protestant Reformers denied the canonicity of the Deuterocanonicals and that we know with a fair degree of certainty why they did it.

 

[guanophore]

This would be your misunderstanding. This is spoken to a group of Jews who had received and believed, but were in danger of falling away back to the old Jewish tradition; thus in danger negating what that had come to know concerning Jesus.

No, I understood this just fine. The letter was addressed to Hebrew Christians, who began in faith, and just like the Galatians, were in danger of falling back into Jewish tradition.

They had become partakers of the HS, tasted of the heavenly gift. Non Christians cannot do these things.

They are the "did not stick around crowd because they were not of us crowd" - paraphrased of course.

Indeed, the OSAS theology requires a complete paraphrase, in order to dispatch all the scripture that testifies otherwise. There is nothing in this letter about people who did not “stick around”. The letter is full, however, of warnings about apostasy. One cannot “fall away” from something one has not become a part of in the first place.

The more attached to religion the less one seems to understand; just like the Pharisees, Scribes, and their followers in Jesus day. It proves and validates my faith in Jesus and the truth of the Bible. It is bitter-sweet though, but is helpful to my understanding of Catholicism.

Apparently you are saying that Catholics, like this fictitious group you reference of non-believing Hebrews who are referred to as believers, are “attached to religion”. Well, all we need do is look at the life of Paul to see that he was very attached to being a Jew. He continued to live his life as a Pharisee even after he became a Christian. He did not have to give up his pious practices, because they did not contradict his faith in Christ in any way.

Then, according to the Church, they are as important as Jesus?

I do not think I am in a position to rule on the relative importance of the teachings of Christ. When He said “teach them to do all that I have commanded”, I think He meant that. I don’t think it was HIs intention for me to sit around and try to figure out which commandment is more or less important than the other.

The Apostles Charged us in the name of Christ:

2 Thess 3:6-7

Now we command you, beloved, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from believers who are living in idleness and not according to the tradition that they received from us. 7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us;

To keep the tradition and to imitate their way of life. Those who have separated from the Apostolic Succession have lost this, to a large extent. Some of them ,such as yourself, in zeal and sincerity try to reconstruct the Apostolic way of life by reading and applying the Holy Scriptures. Although this is profitable, it falls short of the mark that Jesus intended when He founded HIs Church. He did not intend for the Sacred Writing to be separated from the Apostolic Authority He put into place.

Remember this. We think of Paul as a Christian. Before Paul was ever a Christian, he was Jew. Every bit a Jew. Absolutely engulfed and entrenched in Judaism. You know, he is sort of a superhuman character. Everything he said was right. Everything he did was right. He was a man. This passage shows us his humanity. He had just as tough a time making the transition as anybody else did.

This is nothing but baseless speculation on your part. Paul was proud of being a Jew, and delighted in practicing His Jewish faith. He received what Christ gave to the Church, which is that Salvation is of the Jews. Christianity is the fulfillment of everything Jewish, and Paul knew that to his bones. He was very clear which Jewish practices contradicted grace, and which did not. He continued to practices those that were beneficial for spiritual development.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You crack me up and have an answer outside of Scripture for everything. All of you spend more time defending the Church than you do Scripture…I wonder why that might be. npatrol:

By explaining the difference between formal and material sufficiency of scripture to you, I am defending the scriptures from misinterpretation and abuse by people who twist them to prove every imaginable doctrinal error.

Remember, every heretic uses scripture to support his false ideas.

 

[Shlomey]

Yup…that’s a tough one. But I’ve always wondered what people do with the back end of the verses you quoted. It says that it’s “…impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance”?

Good question, but not the topic of the thread.
I’d say that someone who is an apostate and rejects Christ until death is a lost cause. Someone who does not believe cannot be renewed again through penance: only those who believe benefit from it.

 

[sodak]

By explaining the difference between formal and material sufficiency of scripture to you, I am defending the scriptures from misinterpretation and abuse by people who twist them to prove every imaginable doctrinal error.

Remember, every heretic uses scripture to support his false ideas.

Isn’t that the truth!

I was amused that in the first reponse to the post on formal sufficiency, NC tried to re-direct it the Pope’s clothing… Thanks for pinning this one down.

 

[guanophore]

Isn’t that the truth!

I was amused that in the first reponse to the post on formal sufficiency, NC tried to re-direct it the Pope’s clothing… Thanks for pinning this one down.

I saw that, but I did not find it amusing. I find it sad, and offensive. Then I read NonCatholic’s post about how he has been made the Arbitor of Scripture by the Holy Spirit, and I realized that the Pope’s clothing many not be fancy enough to dignify that office! Non may need something even higher falutin’.