Someone can lose their salvation?

[ncgolf]

The saved always endure because they are under the care and influence of God and therefore cannot turn away.

What is meant by turn away?

Catholics believe that even after initial justification, one may still sin, therefore severing the connection to God’s grace. Sin is the turning away as I understand.

Are you saying you do not sin, since you cannot turn away? A precise definition of turn away is needed as based on what I have read … I am confused by what you mean.

If you do sin … how is that reconciled with God?

What about men like the abusive Catholic priests, Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggard who all seemed to be those who could endure but have fallen short in very public ways.

if these men are not saved … where do you see them … which judgement will they endure?

Is this judgement known only to the individual or if not can you, yourself tell?

 

[alanjeddy]

Does God hear the prayer of the righteous or unrighteous or both?

All prayers go to God? I have seen many in this forum go to Mary of the Catholic Church; perhaps you meant all of your prayers go to God, that would be good. You also have proven my point like Cinnett; I’m glad you are not representative of the majority of the kind and thought provoking Catholics I have met here.

What did Jesus say as He was dying on the cross? “Woman behold your Son, son (to His apostle) behold your Mother” Mary is our mother. If more Catholics and Protetants would recite the Rosary, the prayer of the Gospels, we might stop this culture of death. If you do not believe that satan is winning the battle for souls then you have your head in the sand. Wake up America for the clock is ticking. Hell is real, just read Matthew for Christ refers to it 25 times and heaven not even half as many times.

 

[NonCatholic]

guanephore??:

May He do so to all of us! It will not matter, though, if we are not elect, will it? Why pray at all? God will save who He saves, and destroy those vessels fit for wrath! He will harden the hearts of those He will harden? No sense wasting breath on prayer, is there?

We pray because God commands that we do; in the same way we are commanded to be water Baptized and also remember the death, burial, resurrection of Christ in Spirit and Truth.

 

[guanophore]

We pray because God commands that we do; in the same way we are commanded to be water Baptized and also remember the death, burial, resurrection of Christ in Spirit and Truth.

So, we do all these things because they are "ordinances: (commandments of Christ)?

They have no value in and of themselves, but are just empty rituals. We engage in them because we were told to do so. Kinda like my dad used to have us kids move rocks from one pile to another?

 

[NonCatholic]

What is meant by turn away?

Catch up on the treads so you know what we are talking about.

Catholics believe that even after initial justification, one may still sin, therefore severing the connection to God’s grace. Sin is the turning away as I understand.

If that is accurate, then wouldn’t we all be dead? We may turn from His blessing, but not grace; otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Are you saying you do not sin, since you cannot turn away? A precise definition of turn away is needed as based on what I have read … I am confused by what you mean.

A saved individual; God’s elect cannot turn away from God indefinitely; they will be chastened back.

If you do sin … how is that reconciled with God?

What about men like the abusive Catholic priests, Jimmy Swaggert, Ted Haggard who all seemed to be those who could endure but have fallen short in very public ways.

if these men are not saved … where do you see them … which judgement will they endure?

Saved will be in heaven; unsaved will be in hell.

Is this judgement known only to the individual or if not can you, yourself tell?

While it is possible to discern someone that flat out rejects the Scripture in whatever form that may take; you can warn them of their destiny. But the judge is Jesus Christ. As far as these men are concerned; I do not know them except for TV.

 

[PJM]

Your definition of God’s justice is not God’s definition and your view of salvation is not God’s as you provided proof above. The Bible says those that are justified before Him escape the judgment. There are two judgments; one for the damned to determine and probably convict, then penalize by degree. then, there is the Bema judgment; the judgment of the works of the redeemed for reward.

My dear friend in Christ Jesus our Redeemer,

Would you mind sharring with me the source of this teaching?

Thank you:thumbsup:

p.s.
Did you do as I suggested and look up the definitions of redeemed and salvation? Clearly, they do not mean the same thing.

May God continue to bless you and grant all of us the understanding of the TRUTH!

 

[guanophore]

 If that is accurate, then wouldn't we all be dead?

as Jesus said, it is possible to die in one’s sins.

We may turn from His blessing, but not grace; otherwise grace is no longer grace.

This is not the case. Our refusal to accept God’s grace in no way diminishes Him. It is a free gift. Some accept it, some don’t. Think of it this way. God pours out His grace like a river. We get into His grace at baptism (or, in the Reformed tradition, something like the prayer asking Jesus to be Lord and Savior). We can remain in the water, and we will be taken to the pearly gates. We can get out of the water (separate from grace) and go off into a life of debauchery. The grace remains grace. If we repent, and return to the water, we are again in grace. If not, we will die, separated from grace. Grace has not changed.

 A saved individual; God's elect cannot turn away from God indefinitely; they will be chastened back.

This is what you have been taught to believe, but it is not Scriptural, and it is contrary to Apostolic Teaching. Dont you ever wonder why this notion never appeared prior to 1600?

 

[ncgolf]

Catch up on the treads so you know what we are talking about.

I have but if the meaning was there somewhere I cannot discern it … I ask this so only not to impute any meaning to this that you did not intend. Your theology is foreign enough to me that sometimes I feel like I do not even know the word “hello” means … so I ask.

If that is accurate, then wouldn’t we all be dead?

Yes the wages of sin is death.

We may turn from His blessing, but not grace; otherwise grace is no longer grace.

How can we change grace … God’s grace is God’s grace always. Where in Scripture does it say that say grace is no longer grace.

A saved individual; God’s elect cannot turn away from God indefinitely; they will be chastened back.

They do nothing for this … there is no repentence or sorrow for having turned their back. I take it from your response that you can indeed sin … it is a possibility, if this is incorrect let me know … I see this when you used the word indefinitely but what does the sin do to you … nothing? Does God rebuke those little idefinitely’s?

Saved will be in heaven; unsaved will be in hell.

The question was how is that turning away reconciled with God … if you have turned away … even for a short period … is not a reconciliation needed?

While it is possible to discern someone that flat out rejects the Scripture in whatever form that may take

I take it then you have some ability to see inside the depths of one’s heart to know this. Is anyone ever a lost cause … someone you can tell has no chance of being the elect? Would you pray for someone in that position?

 

[Randy_Carson]

We pray because God commands that we do; in the same way we are commanded to be water Baptized and also remember the death, burial, resurrection of Christ in Spirit and Truth.

NC-

This is not a gotcha question…just something I was thinking about earlier today…

Suppose someone believed the Good News, accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, said the sinner’s prayer, and asked Jesus to dwell within his heart BUT he decided NOT to get baptized because a) he believed it was not necessary according to his interpretation of scripture, b) he wanted to be able to say that he was saved by faith alone and not because of any “work” he had done, and c) he wanted to prove Catholics wrong.

Would that person be truly saved without baptism?

Why or why not?

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by guanephore??
May He do so to all of us! It will not matter, though, if we are not elect, will it? Why pray at all? God will save who He saves, and destroy those vessels fit for wrath! He will harden the hearts of those He will harden? No sense wasting breath on prayer, is there?

My dear friend in Christ Jesus,

We can’t both be Chrsitians I mean my Christ, the one born of Mary and the Holy Spirit, who died on the Cross to Redeem us, and Rose from the Dead. That Jesus who is the Son of God! That Jesus sure isn’t the Jesus your describing.:nope:

God is all everything Good right?

So God is all knowing, wise, loving, powerful, kind, just, fair, merciful and all other good attributes. And we should put “perfectly” before each attribute.

**I keep asking why God gave us His Commandments, and Jesus said “we can’t get the heaven without obeying them.” Was He just talking to Catholics?:**hypno: Nope!

So how does "one get fit for wrath? or for that matter, saved? Is that just and fair:whacky: God is Love and God must be, has to be fair and Just If God is not, then your God is NOT the Christians God. Simply cannot be

And by the way; how do you KNOW which one you are… lucky guess? What a difficult life you must have.

God bless you Friend,

 

[NonCatholic]

God does it all, but He waits for our consent. He is not a manipulator.

If He doesn’t control, then He is not God.

 

[NonCatholic]

My dear friend in Christ Jesus,

We can’t both be Chrsitians I mean my Christ, the one born of Mary and the Holy Spirit, who died on the Cross to Redeem us, and Rose from the Dead. That Jesus who is the Son of God! That Jesus sure isn’t the Jesus your describing.:nope:

God is all everything Good right?

So God is all knowing, wise, loving, powerful, kind, just, fair, merciful and all other good attributes. And we should put “perfectly” before each attribute.

**I keep asking why God gave us His Commandments, and Jesus said “we can’t get the heaven without obeying them.” Was He just talking to Catholics?:**hypno: Nope!

So how does "one get fit for wrath? or for that matter, saved? Is that just and fair:whacky: God is Love and God must be, has to be fair and Just If God is not, then your God is NOT the Christians God. Simply cannot be

And by the way; how do you KNOW which one you are… lucky guess? What a difficult life you must have.

God bless you Friend,

I think you took guanophore out of context here.

 

[PJM]

Randy Carson;4756140]NC-

This is not a gotcha question…just something I was thinking about earlier today…

Suppose someone believed the Good News, accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, said the sinner’s prayer, and asked Jesus to dwell within his heart BUT he decided NOT to get baptized because a) he believed it was not necessary according to his interpretation of scripture, b) he wanted to be able to say that he was saved by faith alone and not because of any “work” he had done, and c) he wanted to prove Catholics wrong.

Would that person be truly saved without baptism?

Why or why not?

One trying to interpet Sacred Scripture by themselves is likely going to convience himself, but nobody else, that it’s being done correctly. Why, because darn few of us can be objective in doing so, and fewer yet are willing to convict themselves:blush: That is why there are bible Scholars. We are not qualified do interpet it by ourselves. The RCC who authored the New Testament, is in the best and most logical position to interpet the Bible.

Psalm 81: "
12 "So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts, to follow their own counsels. O that my people would listen to me, "

Would he get to heaven? NOPE!:tsktsk:

John 3:5
** 5 "Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” **

Romans Chapter 6: "1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2* By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? ***3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. ****

There are also baptism of desire and of blood, but the friend you describe has zero chances of attaining heaven UNLESS he repents and converts!

Not my will but thy will be done… that my friend is HOW to get er’ done.

 

[Matariel]

I was thinking about you NonCatholic and wondering what it is that makes you so bitter and full of hatred. You are full of venom. Some of the posters have bent over backwards for you and one would think that you would at least be polite but no you insult the Church, tell us that we do not worship God. I can’t imagine God being very supportive of your attitude.

Materiel has been very patient with you although sometimes it must be extremely difficult.

I don’t think you can be proud of your behaviour.

I second that.

I think part of the problem is people sometimes read posts with the wrong voice tone in mind.

For instance, I stated before that, “he [Guanophore] meant mentality, not a phrase”, and NonCatholic somehow saw this as an insult or derogatory statement to him and replied with “you come across as a bitter person.”

Let’s reply with cordiality, please.

 

[Matariel]

If He doesn’t control, then He is not God.

There is a difference in **being out of control **and freely giving someone free will.

If God controls us as puppets, then we can blame our demise on God, and blame evil on God, which would make Him unjust.

Fortunately, God desires that all be saved. It says so in the Bible.

If God desires all to be saved, and He had not given us free will, then you can be sure we all (everyone) would be saved, because He desires it.

Unfortunately, this isn’t true. God has freely chosen to give us each free will, and we can accept or reject Him.

 

[NonCatholic]

NC-

This is not a gotcha question…just something I was thinking about earlier today…

Suppose someone believed the Good News, accepted Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior, said the sinner’s prayer, and asked Jesus to dwell within his heart BUT he decided NOT to get baptized because a) he believed it was not necessary according to his interpretation of scripture, b) he wanted to be able to say that he was saved by faith alone and not because of any “work” he had done, and c) he wanted to prove Catholics wrong.
Presuming God saved them because their heart of repentance was true before God, they actually believed on Jesus and all that entails and believed Jesus had died, buried and raised for his transgressions, then he would be saved because he was part of the elect.

However; if he decided not to be baptized by water because of the reason stated above; (except #3) & assuming this person’s heart was one not to offend God); then he could be saved. Many gentles that came out of the paganism, did not want to eat meat sacrificed to idols even though it was permissible (not the exact same because it is not a command). The idea to to help the persons error and bring them to understanding of what God teaches through His word.

But, I would be concerned if this person was shown that Jesus commanded us to be baptized and it was made clear, but he decided not to obey, then there would be concern if he was actually called. I would also be very concerned if the motive included “Catholics wrong”.

I think the fact that we are commanded to be baptized in water; negates all infant baptism because an infant is unable and therefore cannot follow that command. If that is true, then there are a lot of people not following the command.

Would that person be truly saved without baptism?

Why or why not?

 

[The_Smiter]

If He doesn’t control, then He is not God.

If God is in control, then we have no free will. God authors history and all of His Creation, and we surrender our lives to Him and in service to and for Him. And I may be off in terms of the term “control”, but the flippant way you use it in your response, once again seems to take away our participation in and responsibility for our lives and the choices we make.

I’ll leave it at that.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NonCatholic,

It really wasn’t a convenience or an inconvenience. The basic reference is provided to help you find the material quickly. Not that everything is contained in the one sentence I provided. The entire thrust of the chapter is not to be a lose canon with God - you just can not pick and choose those parts that you agree with and just ignore the rest.

Now, for someone who frequently and with apparent indifference to simple courtesy, calls people names, insults their efforts and provides unsubtantiated opinions (name removed by moderator)ersonating facts while acting in a pevish manner, you set quite an example.

Conveniently you left out the context of the Scripture, one of the devil’s favorite tricks. See the temptation of Jesus.

There is no context or any other type of arrangement that allows, encourages or commands personal interpretation of Scripture. Christ gave clear instructions that He was the Cornerstone and that the foundation of His Church was Peter - the Apostle He called Rock, that the Holy Spirit would be always with His Church, that His Church would withstand the Gates of Hell, that the Holy Spirit would teach His Church and that the Apostles were commissioned to teach the Good News and Baptize. In brief, the Church you seem to enjoy criticizing is the one that Christ established 2,000 years ago.

Pay attention to what? Are you part of the men/women? Moved by Who?

Pay attention to the teaching of Jesus Christ through His appointed and annointed leaders of the Catholic Church. It is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit and can not teach error. Notice that the same doctrines that were taught by Christ, for example: necessity of Baptism, the Real Presence, God forgiving sin through men, and the priesthood are taught and practiced today.

By its very nature, these events alone should tell you that the CC is not of human origin. Look at the continuity between Christ, the Apostles, the Early Church Fathers to where we are today. There is no human institution or organization or government that has lasted this long that has maintained the same core beliefs. None.

You sound like a broken record with the 30k, 60k and growing denomination thing. God keeps His own and His own hear His voice; He has always kept a remnant and I doubt God is a respecter of denominations…do you? One of the things that many Catholics in this forum see to fail to understand is that God works one heart at a time; not by the group…you do well to pay attention.

Just how many topics do you think you can throw out and expect your sentences to hold together? It must be one of life’s little annoyances for you: seeing these various sects and cults of Protestantism springing up like mushrooms overnight. It really is hard to do a count - but, this by its very nature should tell you something. If all of them were teaching the same doctrine (like the ones I identified for you above) that would be noteworthy. But just look - everyone is developing mutually exclusive doctrines. This simply can not be the work of God acting in Truth.

The remnant, that you are referring to, deals with those who have been faithful to God’s Word. Well, you do not have to look very far - just 5 paragraphs up. Try those on for size and see if your church fits them. These are all from Christ. And, only the CC honors, observes and commits to putting all of Christ’s Words into practice. No one else comes close. Some go so far as to repudiate the Wrods of Christ by denying it could ever happen (e.g., the Real Presence).

There have been numerous references given to you that we are expected to persevere to the end if we expect our eternal reward. Juat crying out, “Lord, Lord…” and even casting out demons just isn’t going be of any help if you think that OSAS is how your ticket gets punched.

Now, about all I expect as a response is your usual one-liner about how you think you have been abused. I really expect more from you. Please try harder.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

If He doesn’t control, then He is not God.

Well, this is a very anthropormophic view of the Diety. Jesus did not “control”. He came to serve. He allowed Himself to be crucified by sinful men. I guess that means He is not really God?

Love sets free. Love is not controlling and possessive this way. God wants a Bride, not a concubine.

If God is in control, then we have no free will. God authors history and all of His Creation, and we surrender our lives to Him and in service to and for Him. And I may be off in terms of the term “control”, but the flippant way you use it in your response, once again seems to take away our participation in and responsibility for our lives and the choices we make.

I’ll leave it at that.

I think this goes overboad in the opposite direction. Of course God is sovereign. He ordains that we will be able to choose. “Behold I put before you this day life and death. Choose Life”. If it were not really possible, why would He pretend to give us the choice?

God does not have to control us in order to have free will, just like any husband does not have to control every move his wife makes in order for her to choose to be with him. God does not have to relinquish all control, either, just as the husband married to an unfaithful wife, he can say “ok, if you wish to be with another man, that is your choice, but you cannot continue to live with me and share my marriage bed”.

This is one reason Paul uses the image of marriage to explain the relationship of Christ to His Bride. He chose her, and purified her, betrothing her to Himself. Those who do not wish to participate do not join themselves to her in that betrothal. Some who were joined change their minds, and abandon the betrothal for “other gods”. This is written about all thru the OT. This is why it is called spiritual adultery.

Adulters do not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PJM,

Now you’ve done it! You have gone and asked for a reference!!! Now telling how black your kettle is going to be colored after this …

My dear friend in Christ Jesus our Redeemer,

Would you mind sharring with me the source of this teaching?

Thank you:thumbsup:

OK… I could not resist… So, here is his chance to prove me wrong: no one-liner put downs, AND actual scriptural references. So, let’s see what happens…

God bless