Someone can lose their salvation?

[sandusky]

Man alive sandusky, could you just answer the mans question

Man alive RC, I answered the man’s question; are you “reading challenged?”

 

[Randy_Carson]

Man alive RC, I answered the man’s question; are you “reading challenged?”

Sandy-

As one who has read many of your 4,000+ posts over the past couple of years, I find that you are frequently evasive and cryptic in your responses. Perhaps if you toned down the combative attitude and adopted the tone of a genuine seeker of truth, we could find your answers in your posts more readily.

By contrast, you probably ignore my posts because I provide too much material for you to “waste” your time on. Still, some questions do not lend themselves to sound bite answers, and I try to answer as thoroughly as I can.

It would be nice if you would do likewise.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thoughts Against OSAS Theology

Ironically, while one group of Protestants is touting “once saved always saved” another group is stating that you can never really be sure who has REAL faith until the end because it might turn out that one is “overcome” by the world at the last minute. I’m just curios, which of these groups is “rightly dividing the word of God” and which is wrongly dividing it? They can’t both be right yet both claim scripture as their sole rule of faith. So much for the doctrine of sola scriptura. But I digress.

Isn’t it ironic that when Catholics speak of mortal sin, many OSAS Protestants will begin screaming about how “wrong” Catholics are to hold that someone could live a good life according to the Word of God and still lose out on salvation because they are not in a state of grace due to mortal sin at the time of their death.

Yet, here is another Protestant declaring that if one is “overcome” by the world and does not persevere (in what? good works?) to the end, that is evidence that one does not have saving faith.

Our friend is in a difficult situation for even he cannot know for sure right now if he REALLY has that saving faith or not, and he won’t know this side of heaven. He realizes that he, too, could be overcome at some point in the future…perhaps his time of testing has not yet come.

This is what drives the “good works” of Protestantism - the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They are seeking to do these things as evidence that they have saving faith that perseveres to the end.

This is the treadmill they are on - and then they condemn Catholics because they mistakenly believe we think we can earn our way into heaven! They attribute this false idea to Catholics because many of them are actually doing that very thing themselves!

+++

So, have you been saved, brother? And how can you know for sure?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Man alive RC, I answered the man’s question; are you “reading challenged?”

Would you please be so kind as to answer the question again for all of us who do not have a reading comprehension level on par with you oh greatness?

Again I do not see the connection with the question and predestination being right or wrong. I am simply curious as to whether there are people who believe in it but yet do not consider themselves among the elect.

I found it to be an interesting question is all. There is no need to be childish and un-Christ like about it.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, sandusky,

I don’t think you answered the question, either.

I know you are a busy poster - apparently too busy to provide the answer that others are asking for. After all, the purpose of this list is to provide dialogue - not opportunities for flaming others who ask a question. So, how about just posting the post # so we can enlighten ourselves on what you have done so far?

I answered your question, how’s that a diversion? (Me thinks thou projects too much.)

And, while you are at it, why not drop the antagonism that has accompanies virtually all of your posts - it is hard to understand your point of view when one has to wade through so much attitude to get there.

You can do it - just try a little harder. Thanks

God bless

 

[moondweller]

This is what drives the “good works” of Protestantism - the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They are seeking to do these things as evidence that they have saving faith that perseveres to the end.

This would conclude that all Protestants falsely believe they’re on trial daily and must continually provide evidence to God of saving faith. Falsely concluding that God Himself is not omniscient and that the Lord doesn’t know His own (2 Tim. 2:19). That one is not saved through faith but by subjected evidence of faith. This would translate into a salvation based entirely on work. A belief in a false gospel and under anathema.

I disagree with your false assertion pertaining to “good works of Protestantism.” I believe as the Scriptures say, that I: "…have been saved by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith (in the Person and work of Jesus Christ), the gift of God; not as a result of works…"I don’t seek assurance of my salvation by any works, whatsoever, which I can present to God as “evidence.” But my assurance rests in the historical FACT that He:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "…was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not by supplied “evidence”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."I rest in the “finished” work of Another. The true work of a missionary is to get this truth out; and those who have believed this glorious message support financially those who evangelize according to this “good news” gospel.

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[ncgolf]

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

Faith without works is dead …faith is both a noun and a verb … something that would take residence in one’s soul and as something one must do. The works are not for God’s appeasment but for the building up of His kingdom on earth to demonstrate the goodness of God.

I should think even some of your Protestant brothers should disagree with your conclusion … a living or even a “saving” faith does produce actions, necessarily. If one does not strive he did not have faith.

What I see in your analysis is the most despicable kind of faith … one that is owned totally by one’s own self… a me and God faith, a selfish faith, a possesive faith. One does own their own faith like a car or home … it is a gift … and as such is to be shared in the same manner it was given.

 

[sandusky]

This would conclude that all Protestants falsely believe they’re on trial daily and must continually provide evidence to God of saving faith. Falsely concluding that God Himself is not omniscient and that the Lord doesn’t know His own (2 Tim. 2:19). That one is not saved through faith but by subjected evidence of faith. This would translate into a salvation based entirely on work. A belief in a false gospel and under anathema.

I disagree with your false assertion pertaining to “good works of Protestantism.” I believe as the Scriptures say, that I: "…have been saved by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith (in the Person and work of Jesus Christ), the gift of God; not as a result of works…"I don’t seek assurance of my salvation by any works, whatsoever, which I can present to God as “evidence.” But my assurance rests in the historical FACT that He:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "…was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not by supplied “evidence”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."I rest in the “finished” work of Another. The true work of a missionary is to get this truth out; and those who have believed this glorious message support financially those who evangelize according to this “good news” gospel.

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

That particular post of Randy’s is another of his “canned responses” that I’ve seen him post elsewhere with a specific name inserted in the final question when Randy’s feeling bold, and the generic brother, it would seem, when he’s feeling more timid.

 

[sandusky]

Hi, sandusky,

I don’t think you answered the question, either.

You’re definitely ignoring my last post to you, as I expected you would.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, moondweller,

I liked your ending quote a lot! So, in that spirit, let’s see if we can work on light of a little understanding and void the heat of a lot of misunderstanding.

Simply stated: there is no Faith versus Works controversy in the NT. There is not one passage that says, “Faith is OK, but the real action is with Works!” or “Works are almost totally useless - unless you have Faith, you are lost!” Not only are these words NOT PRESENT in the Gospels - but, Christ expressed no such sentiments. Let’s look to Christ for not only the Ultimate Authority but also the Ultimate Role Model.

Every one of the Works her performed He do so to easy suffering, relief distress and grief and offer Love to those who were unloved. Every one of the Works was to demonstrate that Faith is required - and a Faith based on what has been seen.

There are ample references in Scripture where talented people lacked Faith and never made it into the Ministry. There are also ample references where those who did not feed the hungry, visit the sick, and clothe the naked were soundly condemned.

No one is saved by Works alone - we can not ‘work our way to heaven’. No one is saved by Faith alone - St. Paul (among others, tells us that Charity is the greatest virtue and everything else is clanging brass.

The CC has always promoted a balance between Faith and Works in the sense that St. James uses - Faith without Works is dead. If you are in a row boat and lose one of your oars - rowing twice as hard one one side is not the solution - you will just spin around in a circle faster - and go no where.

I realize that OSAS has been an article of your religion for some time - and that time can not be dated prior to the 16th Century. Look at what took place before the destructive other gospels of the Reformation took hold. Seriously. Do you think the CC was abandoned by the Holy Spirit for 1500 years - and then the 3rd Person of the Blessed Trinity suddenly appears in Germany guiding a malcontent monk? Look to Christ.

Christ totally changed the direction of the Salvation Message by moving away from Judiasm. Prior to doing this, He fulfilled all of the prophesies, showed total obedience to the Law, worked many miracles and preached the Gospel. Christ did not re-appear to Luther and guide his efforts at establishing another Gospel.

God bless

This would conclude that all Protestants falsely believe they’re on trial daily and must continually provide evidence to God of saving faith. Falsely concluding that God Himself is not omniscient and that the Lord doesn’t know His own (2 Tim. 2:19). That one is not saved through faith but by subjected evidence of faith. This would translate into a salvation based entirely on work. A belief in a false gospel and under anathema.

I disagree with your false assertion pertaining to “good works of Protestantism.” I believe as the Scriptures say, that I: "…have been saved by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith (in the Person and work of Jesus Christ), the gift of God; not as a result of works…"I don’t seek assurance of my salvation by any works, whatsoever, which I can present to God as “evidence.” But my assurance rests in the historical FACT that He:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "…was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not by supplied “evidence”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."I rest in the “finished” work of Another. The true work of a missionary is to get this truth out; and those who have believed this glorious message support financially those who evangelize according to this “good news” gospel.

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[ncgolf]

This would conclude that all Protestants falsely believe they’re on trial daily and must continually provide evidence to God of saving faith. Falsely concluding that God Himself is not omniscient and that the Lord doesn’t know His own (2 Tim. 2:19). That one is not saved through faith but by subjected evidence of faith. This would translate into a salvation based entirely on work.

The accusation of a “works” gospel is an old one … but what I would say is you seem to under a “means” gospel … what is the “means” to sanctity, which must be a product of santicfication. One must be sanctified before entrance to Heaven.

I read you as saying faith becomes the “means” to attain this sanctity needed for heaven, so if I attain faith … faith becomes the middle term between you and sanctity.

I define sanctity as loving God with all your, heart, mind, soul, and strength … so how do we know we do this … faith yes, practicing the cardinal virtues yes, keeping the commandments yes, loving your enemies yes … the list goes on.

I will say it again the “works” are not specifically to convince God … because yes God knows your heart … in fact better than you do since He made you … but to convince ourselves that we indeed are living as God intended and more importantly to be the light to others in this world desperately in need of torch bearers. If you cannot see this then you must not watch any TV or read the newspapers.

The “works” are intended to convince others of God’s truths and love for all … since we have no need to convince God of anything.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I believe as the Scriptures say, that I: "…have been saved by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith (in the Person and work of Jesus Christ), the gift of God; not as a result of works…"I don’t seek assurance of my salvation by any works, whatsoever, which I can present to God as “evidence.”

This is and has always been taught by the Apostolic Church of Christ. But we must respond. Christ died for all, but we must respond by faith. It is not Faith plus works, but Faith in action. Faith is a verb. We must PARTICIPATE in His death and suffering.

and we exult in hope of the glory of God."[/indent]I rest in the “finished” work of Another.

How do you explain Colossians 1:24
*24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is **lacking in the afflictions of Christ on **behalf of his body, which is the church,
25
of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God, *

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

This is what YOU are saying. The Church does not teach this and this in not what Randy said.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Dear Sandusky,
I do not understand how your post relates to Randy’s post. Please explain how Randy “timid” and Randy “generic” relate to the topic of this thread. As for Randy’s responses being “canned” because you have seen similar responses on other threads, I have seen you make similar responses in many threads. Are yours “canned” as well?

That particular post of Randy’s is another of his “canned responses” that I’ve seen him post elsewhere with a specific name inserted in the final question when Randy’s feeling bold, and the generic brother, it would seem, when he’s feeling more timid.

**[This is what drives the “good works” of Protestantism - the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They are seeking to do these things as evidence that they have saving faith that perseveres to the end.

+++

So, have you been saved, brother? And how can you know for sure?**

Christ’s peace and brotherly love

 

[sandusky]

qui est ce:

Faith is a verb.

…faith is both a noun and a verb

Sorry, Peeps, but faith is not a verb.

In the NT, faith is either a noun, or an adjective; I can’t think of anywhere that faith is a verb, however, I stand ready to be correct by either one of you.

 

[ncgolf]

Sorry, Peeps, but faith is not a verb.

In the NT, faith is either a noun, or an adjective; I can’t think of anywhere that faith is a verb, however, I stand ready to be correct by either one of you.

Technically no … but living faith being is an action … it is never something that stands still … but in the sense you chastized me like my English teacher … you are correct.

I merely tried to show faith in a more active sense … give me a C+ then.

 

[paul_c]

I’ve yet to hear or read anyone or anything, from a Catholic or otherwise, that can dissuade me from faith in God’s promise to persevere His elect…

He will, the question is who are the elect and how did they get to be the elect.

Grace is either sufficient for salvation, in and of itself (which is the scriptural position), or it’s not, and it’s morphed into something which must be cooperated with for salvation (which seems to be your position)…

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation. That is not the issue. The question is can Grace be lost.

Now I will agree that cooperation with the Spirit is essential to sanctification; however, salvation is the purview of the Father (cf Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:3ff)…

I don’t really understand how you use the word sanctification (which to me, means to make holy). In the Catholic world, only the holy get to heaven. You become holy by being in the state of Grace. You get to be in the state of Grace through baptism and it is not merited. However, you can fall from Grace through sin, losing your holiness. You can regain Grace through the sacrament of reconciliation , through confession, contrition, repentence and penance. Good works are required to demonstrate that you are living lives of holiness, doing God’s will. Sanctification or become holy, is a lifelong process

I think your view is that holiness is not required of the elect, only initial belief, in which you are born again. To put it in your own terms, we beleive that life does not end at birth. You still need to live your life well to earn the reward of eternal life. And we see it as a reward, not a wage. God owes his creatures nothing, but he has said he will reward those that do his will, which is to love him and to love our neighbors as ourselves

Because, in Christ’s words, they weren’t “good soil,” and they did not ”hear the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."
They weren’t “good soil” (re: a good and prepared heart), and they didn’t hear the message honestly (they believed that they must earn salvation by cooperation, whatever that means, and so on). Do you understand?.

This parable is clearly about how people fall from the faith. They all hear the word. Some are shallow and can’t withstand persecution. Others growth is sitfled by the cares of this world. But some bear fruit. They will be the ones that share eternal life with God.

I think you misunderstand Paul; if ever there was one who understood salvation, and that the Lord Jesus doesn’t just make salvation a possibility for those who cooperate for their salvation, but that He truly saves, all by Himself, it’s Paul.

Paul does understand salvation. The question is whether you understand Paul. Jesus provides initial justification for all those that are Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. There is no question about this among Christians. This is done without the cooperation or merit of the individual. So there is not debate on this point… You would stop here, although Paul doesn’t. He recognizes that love is greater than Faith (1Corinthians 13) and that the saved must persevere to the end. He is in complete harmony with the Catholic Church and the rest of scripture in proclaiming in Titus 2:11-14:

For the grace of God has appeared, saving all and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age, as we await the blessed hope, the appearance 3 of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good

and in Galatians 6:4-9

For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is deluding himself. Each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason to boast with regard to himself alone, and not with regard to someone else; for each will bear his own load.One who is being instructed in the word should share all good things with his instructor.Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a** person will reap only what he sows**, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up

.

 

[sandusky]

Technically no … but living faith being is an action … it is never something that stands still … but in the sense you chastized me like my English teacher … you are correct.

I merely tried to show faith in a more active sense … give me a C+ then.

Yes, I’m very combative, cryptic, childish, un-Christlike and chastizingly mean.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Yes, I’m very combative, cryptic, childish, un-Christlike and chastizingly mean.

You can now add humble to your list for admitting your faults

I will allow it.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, sandusky,

You have not been ignored, buddy. But, I want you to know that I have won my bet!

You’re definitely ignoring my last post to you, as I expected you would.

I transferred a penny from my right pocket to my left… the bet was you still would not answer the question… and, guess what? You didn’t do it, again… and managed to squeeze in an insult in the process of the same sentence. How really talented. Shame you are unable to direct this energy towards honest dialogue.

As far as the question is concerned, it will simply remain unanswered and I guess we just need to move on.

It really isn’t necessary to provide another non-response response, such as what is presented at the top of this post. I think we have all caught on to this approach of yours and it is has become obviously worn.

I am still praying for you, though, because I know you are doing the best you are capable of.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

Not so; Jesus clearly states that no one has the ability to believe apart from the Father giving him the ability to believe, and those to whom the Father gives the ability to believe, He also gives to the Son, and the Father has charged the Son with the responsibility to resurrect to life those He’s given to the Son (Jn 6:36-44).

This is true, but that “belief” about which He is speaking is a believe that works, that hope, that loves. These elements are not separated from the grace that produces them. They abide, they remain.

They’re past tense because they occurred in the past; in fact, they occurred in eternity past:Ephesians 1:3-6

Yes, these are about people are already glorified, they have gone on to be with the Lord. Those that are still here have not yet been “glorified” as that happens later.

Part of the fallacy of this approach is that it takes texts that don’t apply in this life, and tries to force them to say something they do not.
sandusky;4769286:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us…as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself…

Sounds like “apostolic teaching” to me; in fact, Catholics must believe, de fide that God has predestined some to eternal life.

No arguement there.

In the mind, and in the plan of God, all of those who have been, or who will be glorified, were so glorified in eternity past.

The Lord knows those who are His. We, however, do not necessarily know.

That’s Paul’s “apostolic teaching” in Romans 8 (cf Eph 1:3ff).

I will concede that this is your understanding of it.

The apostolic message is that one can know. That’s why “Gospel” means "good news."
** Ephesians 1:4-5**

The gospel is, indeed, good news. We may know. We know in part. It would be immature of us to assume or presume that we have already attained.
sandusky;4769286:

…In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself…

Apostolic teaching disagrees with you.

I never denied predestination, which is clearly taught by the Apostles.