Someone can lose their salvation?

[broski234]

This would conclude that all Protestants falsely believe they’re on trial daily and must continually provide evidence to God of saving faith. Falsely concluding that God Himself is not omniscient and that the Lord doesn’t know His own (2 Tim. 2:19). That one is not saved through faith but by subjected evidence of faith. This would translate into a salvation based entirely on work. A belief in a false gospel and under anathema.

I disagree with your false assertion pertaining to “good works of Protestantism.” I believe as the Scriptures say, that I: "…have been saved by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith (in the Person and work of Jesus Christ), the gift of God; not as a result of works…"I don’t seek assurance of my salvation by any works, whatsoever, which I can present to God as “evidence.” But my assurance rests in the historical FACT that He:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "…was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not by supplied “evidence”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."I rest in the “finished” work of Another. The true work of a missionary is to get this truth out; and those who have believed this glorious message support financially those who evangelize according to this “good news” gospel.

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

Actually, the Bible is not “quite clear” about that. That is your fallible interpretation of the Bible based on your pre-set beliefs. Eph 2:10 says that God has prepared good works for us beforehand that we should walk in them, doesn’t it. So, it is God’s will that we do these good works that He has set aside for us, right? Well, what if we don’t do them? Are we still saved? The Bible says, “NO!” Matt 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in Heaven.” So, we must do these good works to get into Heaven, right? But, we can only do them by the grace of God.
Look at Romans 2:6-7. It says quite clearly that God will render to every man according to his faith? NO! According to his works. And it says quite clearly that “those who by patience in well-doing [good works] seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give ETERNAL LIFE.” Titus 3:5, I agree with 100%. Notice it’s talking about Baptism – the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit! Eph 2:9, I agree with 100%. But as I just pointed out, you have to keep reading through Eph 2:10. Rom 3:10, I agree with 100%. But, if you interpret it as absolutely no one being righteous, instead of taking into account the context of the Old Testament verse from which it is quoted (Psalms 14:1-4), then you will run into some difficulties with other parts of Scripture. For example, Luke 1:6 says that both of John the Baptist’s parents were “righteous before God.” How is that possible if absolutely no one is righteous? Plus, Romans 2:11 says that no one is seeking God. Aren’t you seeking God? I know I am? How does that fit into your interpretation of this verse? You say that Jesus did all that needs to be done in order for anyone to be saved. Yes, He did, in one sense. He paid the price that only He can pay. However, if our salvation rested solely on Jesus’ finished work on the cross, then everyone ever born would automatically be saved, wouldn’t they? But, there is something else that needs to be done. We need to respond. We need to do something in order to be saved. We need to believe. And we need to do the works God has set aside for us to do. And both of these things, faith and works, are only done by the grace of God. God’s grace saves us through faith. But, if after we have been initially saved, we do not do the works he has set aside for us according to His will, then we can lose that salvation. Our works do not gain us salvation, but if we do not do the works He wants us to do, then we can indeed lose our salvation.I read the Bible and it says, “we are justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2). I read the Bible and it says that if I do not forgive another of their sins, my sins will not be forgiven (Matt 6). I read the Bible and it says that if I do not care for my family then I’m worse than an unbeliever (1 Tim 5). I read the Bible and it says that faith WORKING through love is of avail.

 

[sandusky]

Hi, sandusky,

But, I want you to know that I have won my bet! I transferred a penny from my right pocket to my left… the bet was you still would not answer the question… and, guess what? You didn’t do it, again… and managed to squeeze in an insult in the process of the same sentence. How really talented.

I made a note to myself yesterday that none who would join in the accusation that I didn’t answer a question would take the time to go back to page 27, and re-read the three posts in question, and find the three-letter answer.

In about two hours it will have been a full day, and still no one’s bothered. Guess that wouldn’t provide any enjoyment for you.

But hey, as guanophore always says, that’s very Catholic of you!

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t say to read catechism, I said read Scripture. The Scriptures are the only place you will find the truth. Shalom, Thomasine

Really? Can you point me to the verse that talks about fertility procedures? The woman who had 6 embryos implanted and had 8 babies was on the news this morning. I would like to know what the Bible teaches on this subject.

Why are you on this thread, Yahuwehsaves? If you believe all you need is in the Bible, why come to CAF?

Do you believe you will go to heaven if you fail to “finish the race” and are 'disqualified"?

 

[broski234]

This would conclude that all Protestants falsely believe they’re on trial daily and must continually provide evidence to God of saving faith. Falsely concluding that God Himself is not omniscient and that the Lord doesn’t know His own (2 Tim. 2:19). That one is not saved through faith but by subjected evidence of faith. This would translate into a salvation based entirely on work. A belief in a false gospel and under anathema.

I disagree with your false assertion pertaining to “good works of Protestantism.” I believe as the Scriptures say, that I: "…have been saved by grace (unmerited, divine favor) through faith (in the Person and work of Jesus Christ), the gift of God; not as a result of works…"I don’t seek assurance of my salvation by any works, whatsoever, which I can present to God as “evidence.” But my assurance rests in the historical FACT that He:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "…was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith (not by supplied “evidence”), we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."I rest in the “finished” work of Another. The true work of a missionary is to get this truth out; and those who have believed this glorious message support financially those who evangelize according to this “good news” gospel.

No, my friend, you’re totally wrong in your analysis. You perceive it only from your own works oriented, religious mentality; which is a totally false conception. You utterly fail to understand the grace in which the true believer now stands, therefore, he need not strive to provide “evidence” to the God who has already saved him “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

Give me one instance of faith being declared to be the “sole condition” for salvation?! Paul says, “If I have all faith, but have not love, I am nothing.” Faith and love are both necessary for salvation. And our love is shown through our works. One can indeed have faith and not have works, but such a faith is a dead faith – it cannot and will not save you. Only faith completed by works can save you.Faith is absolutely necessary, but so are works. Have you never read Matthew 25, as just one example?Belief and action are both necessary. This is why Paul’s letter to the Romans opens and closes with the phrase, “the obedience of faith.” Romans 1:5 & 16:26. The obedience of faith means faith working through love – faith and works. Not just believing, but obeying because of your beliefs.

John 6:28-35. Notice that it says that believing is a work! Having faith is a work. Plus, if you look farther on in John 6, Jesus says we must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life. Whether you take that literally or figuratively, Jesus is saying that there is something we must DO in order to have eternal life. Faith and works! If faith is not a work, then everyone in the world is saved, because they can do nothing to contribute to their salvation. In other words, what is the difference between a believer and a non-believer? Is it something Jesus Christ did? NO! Jesus died for all men so that all men might be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4). So, the difference between a believer and a non-believer is not something Jesus does, because Jesus did the same for all men. The difference is something the believer DOES. The believer has faith. It is an act of the mind and an act of the will to have faith. It is a work the believer does that the non-believer does not do.

 

[guanophore]

I’ve yet to hear or read anyone or anything, from a Catholic or otherwise, that can dissuade me from faith in God’s promise to persevere His elect.

There are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear.

You never did answer my question from the other thread. How can a person reject God’s purpose for themselves?

Grace is either sufficient for salvation, in and of itself (which is the scriptural position), or it’s not, and it’s morphed into something which must be cooperated with for salvation (which seems to be your position).

There are a couple logical errors here. One is that people’s response to God somehow changes God. God is immutable. His grace does not change, just because some choose to reject it.

Another is that those “receive him” have no part in “cooperating”. To receive is to be open,and to accept. This requires assent on the part of the recipient.

Now I will agree that cooperation with the Spirit is essential to sanctification; however, salvation is the purview of the Father (cf Rom 8:29-30; Eph 1:3ff).

We are in agreement on this part. Catholics don’t separarate the grace that justifies from that which sanctifies, nor either from the grace that glorifies. The grace must be received and embraced. One must lay hold of that which has laid hold of him.

Because, in Christ’s words, they weren’t “good soil,” and they did not ”hear the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”

This is true, but 3/4 of them did receive the implanted word which was able to save their souls. 75% sprouted that seed, and it grew. Two thirds of those then failed to persevere.

They weren’t “good soil” (re: a good and prepared heart), and they didn’t hear the message honestly (they believed that they must earn salvation by cooperation, whatever that means, and so on). Do you understand?

I understand that this is a Calvanistic interpretation of the passage. however, What Jesus says is that they did hear, and the seed did sprout. He makes no mention of cooperation with grace, but refers to the devil, who steals (how can something you did not have be stolen from you?) and the weeds that choke (cares of this world).

I think you misunderstand Paul; if ever there was one who understood salvation, and that the Lord Jesus doesn’t just make salvation a possibility for those who cooperate for their salvation, but that He truly saves, all by Himself, it’s Paul.

This must be why he enjoins the disciples to “run, strive, fight, hold fast, cling” etc etc?

The whole reason for salvation is that God chose not to be “all by HImself!”

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I made a note to myself yesterday that none who would join in the accusation that I didn’t answer a question would take the time to go back to page 27, and re-read the three posts in question, and find the three-letter answer.

In about two hours it will have been a full day, and still no one’s bothered. Guess that wouldn’t provide any enjoyment for you.

But hey, as guanophore always says, that’s very Catholic of you!

I guess you lost your bet.

mackbrislawn:

I wonder what percentage of those who actually believe the grim doctrine of predestination consider themselves to be among the damned.

**Do you consider yourself to be among the damned? **

mackbrislawn:

…not yet.** How about you? **

Yes, and your answer, “yet,” makes no sense, what with the biblical statements concerning the timing of predestination stated as having been determined in eternity “past.”

So you consider yourself among those who are predestined to be damned. And in a way you did answer the question as to whether there are people who believe they are among the damned, because you believe yourself to be one of them.

God bless

 

[sandusky]

I guess you lost your bet.

I didn’t make a bet, but a mental note.

Roman_Catholic:

So you consider yourself among those who are predestined to be damned. And in a way you did answer the question as to whether there are people who believe they are among the damned, because you believe yourself to be one of them.

No, I consider myself to be among the elect, but by the time I realized my error, it was too late to change it, and, like I said, I never thought any of you would take the time to go back to look.

 

[sandusky]

guanophore:

You never did answer my question from the other thread. How can a person reject God’s purpose for themselves?

I’m not sure what you’re talking about guanophore, but one of God’s purposes for you, as stated in the Decalogue, is that you not tell a lie. Have you ever told a lie?

guanophore:

There are a couple logical errors here. One is that people’s response to God somehow changes God. God is immutable. His grace does not change, just because some choose to reject it.

Another is that those “receive him” have no part in “cooperating”. To receive is to be open,and to accept. This requires assent on the part of the recipient.

You’d have a point if I had stated that responses to God change God, but I didn’t say that; nor did I say anything about “being open to accept, or receive,” or any of those things.

guanophore:

We are in agreement on this part. Catholics don’t separarate the grace that justifies from that which sanctifies, nor either from the grace that glorifies. The grace must be received and embraced. One must lay hold of that which has laid hold of him.

None of what you say addresses anything said in my post.

guanophore:

I understand that this is a Calvanistic interpretation of the passage. however, What Jesus says is that they did hear, and the seed did sprout. He makes no mention of cooperation with grace, but refers to the devil, who steals (how can something you did not have be stolen from you?) and the weeds that choke (cares of this world).

The difference, as stated by Christ, is the type of soil upon which the seed fell. Only one seed fell on good soil, Jesus said.

guanophore:

This must be why he enjoins the disciples to “run, strive, fight, hold fast, cling” etc etc?

Im’ not sure what you’re saying. What must by why he enjoins them thus? They have to merit salvation?

guanophore:

The whole reason for salvation is that God chose not to be “all by HImself!”

That’s an interesting way to turn the phrase, once again however, it has nothing to do with what I said in my post.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I didn’t make a bet, but a mental note.

No, I consider myself to be among the elect, but by the time I realized my error, it was too late to change it

I understand a mistake, but you did say that it was I who was "reading challenged’

like I said, I never thought any of you would take the time to go back to look.

I probably wouldn’t have but like I said, I am very interesting in knowing the answer to the question and if you said that you had answered it previously I am going to go back and find the answer. By the way I still have not found it.

God bless

 

[sandusky]

Roman_Catholic:

I probably wouldn’t have but like I said, I am very interesting in knowing the answer to the question and if you said that you had answered it previously I am going to go back and find the answer. By the way I still have not found it.

God bless

You know now, but I’ll elaborate. With respect to protestants, I can only answer for myself, and those I know, and they would consider themselves among the elect.

With respect to Catholics, I believe that Catholics would answer that they “hope to be among the elect,” but don’t know for sure, as the RC teaches that to believe in the affirmative is a sin of presumption. Also, I would hold that to be true only for those Catholics who understand that the RC has a de fide teaching on predestination, my experience is that many don’t know that.

 

[paul_c]

You know now, but I’ll elaborate. With respect to protestants, I can only answer for myself, and those I know, and they would consider themselves among the elect.

With respect to Catholics, I believe that Catholics would answer that they “hope to be among the elect,” but don’t know for sure, as the RC teaches that to believe in the affirmative is a sin of presumption. Also, I would hold that to be true only for those Catholics who understand that the RC has a de fide teaching on predestination, my experience is that many don’t know that.

This is pretty well said. The reason that many Catholics don’t know the Catholic teaching about predestination is that it is a subtle theological argument in the Catholic faith that has no real effect on how a Catholic lives his/her life. While it is true that God knows everything and made everything according to his plan (hence predestination), the Catholic church teaches that this is in harmony with man’s free will. No individual knows God’s plan for him so he must use his free will to do God’s will and be saved or to oppose God and be condemned. How his uses his free will will ultimately be in harmony with God’s plan for him. How this is accomplished is one of those mysteries that can’t fully be understood.

And its not really a question of being presumptuous. Catholics really don’t know their ultimate destiny. We all hope that we will persevere and die in Grace and hence be saved, but none of us knows ourselves well enough to understand fully God’s plan for us… In my experience, the holier a person is, the more they understand how far short they are of perfection…

 

[qui_est_ce]

This is pretty well said. The reason that many Catholics don’t know the Catholic teaching about predestination is that it is a subtle theological argument in the Catholic faith that has no real effect on how a Catholic lives his/her life.

Very well said. Thank you

{snip}.

In my experience, the holier a person is, the more they understand how far short they are of perfection…

This is so true for a number of reasons. One is that the closer you get to God, the harder the Evil One works to take you away.

The other, IMHO, is that the closer you get to God is to stand at once in awe and in humility at how much and how wonderfully we are loved by Him.

Way beyond semantics and logic.

Keep on “Faithin”

 

[sandusky]

paul c:

In my experience, the holier a person is, the more they understand how far short they are of perfection…

In mine, I’ve found just the opposite; namely, the more one apprehends the holiness of God, the more one grasps how holy one isn’t, and how holy one won’t be in this life, seeing that the perfection of His Holiness is the standard that must be met.

We do have different starting points.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This post was taken from the Purgatory thread where it was getting off topic.

No, they cannot lose their salvation. Not that they can claim any credit for that.​

 

[The_Smiter]

You know now, but I’ll elaborate. With respect to protestants, I can only answer for myself, and those I know, and they would consider themselves among the elect.

With respect to Catholics, I believe that Catholics would answer that they “hope to be among the elect,” but don’t know for sure, as the RC teaches that to believe in the affirmative is a sin of presumption. Also, I would hold that to be true only for those Catholics who understand that the RC has a de fide teaching on predestination, my experience is that many don’t know that.

I think that it iws ironic that you (as a Protestandt) will let your Protestant brethren speak for themselves, yet you feel perfectly capable and justified (whether right or wrong) to answer for Catholics.

 

[The_Smiter]

Keep on “Faithin”

“Faithin’”

I love it.

I knew it was a verb!!

 

[Matariel]

“Faithin’”

I love it.

I knew it was a verb!!

Faithin’ is a verb?

Cool.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure what you’re talking about guanophore, but one of God’s purposes for you, as stated in the Decalogue, is that you not tell a lie. Have you ever told a lie?

To my shame, yes. So, are we in agreement that God desires all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth,b ut it is because of disobedience that some do not?

Titus 2:11
“For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men…”

You’d have a point if I had stated that responses to God change God, but I didn’t say that; nor did I say anything about “being open to accept, or receive,” or any of those things.

Perhaps I did not say it in the best way. In HIs sovereignty, God ordains that our responses to Him will influence what He does. He ordains that we should have the freedom to reject His will for us.

None of what you say addresses anything said in my post.

I am asking you to explain how your theology fits together with the many scriptures that indicate God wants all men to be saved, and that we choose whether or not we wish to be among the elect.

The difference, as stated by Christ, is the type of soil upon which the seed fell. Only one seed fell on good soil, Jesus said.

You did say that, but you fail to appreciate that three fourths of the seeds did sprout, and grow. The received the implanted word that was able to save them, with eagerness!

Im’ not sure what you’re saying. What must by why he enjoins them thus? They have to merit salvation?

I am saying that God pours out His grace upon all, calls everyone everywhere to repent and believe. Only those who respond to His call will be saved. Some will respond to his call, receive the implanted word that is able to save them with eagerness, then fall away.

That’s an interesting way to turn the phrase, once again however, it has nothing to do with what I said in my post.

I am seeking the Reformed perspective on these verses that seem to contradict the Reformed doctrine. Perhaps you are not able to help me?

 

[ncgolf]

Saul was a devout Pharisee … he prided himself on the ability to keep all the Jewish laws … all 6 or 7 hundred of them … by all accounts he was faithful. He believed that by this outward sign of faithfulness God will reward him. I do not think anyone would have doubted Paul’s love for God.

After his conversion then why would Paul say “works” will not get you to heaven. It was not “works” meaning the action itself … it was the motive of the action. Paul could see that what he did was build up his resume, so to speak, to prove to God he was faithful. Paul wanted to be able to justify himself with proof … and after his conversion … he knew his previous motives … though faithful … were impure.

I see this discussion in the same light … owning or having something that will show God we have done his will … faith is not a chit you turn in at death. Like Paul we must address our motives behind whatever we do … faith, hope, charity … anything. We cannot speak for ourselves before God on what we did or attained in this life … faith then is the trust that Jesus will indeed justify us … that we do not place any confidence in anything we have done in this life but we place all of our confidence in the mercy of Christ.

I then ask the question that the reformers asked us … how much “faith” is enough. Is there is a minimum and can it be quantified? I do not think the amount of faith is the question though. We as Christians should be asking what is the purity of our faith … we must examine daily our motives behind anything we do … including faith.

That is being honest with ourselves and with God.

 

[guanophore]

Saul was a devout Pharisee … he prided himself on the ability to keep all the Jewish laws … all 6 or 7 hundred of them … by all accounts he was faithful. He believed that by this outward sign of faithfulness God will reward him. I do not think anyone would have doubted Paul’s love for God.

After his conversion then why would Paul say “works” will not get you to heaven. It was not “works” meaning the action itself … it was the motive of the action. Paul could see that what he did was build up his resume, so to speak, to prove to God he was faithful. Paul wanted to be able to justify himself with proof … and after his conversion … he knew his previous motives … though faithful … were impure.

I see this discussion in the same light … owning or having something that will show God we have done his will … faith is not a chit you turn in at death. Like Paul we must address our motives behind whatever we do … faith, hope, charity … anything. We cannot speak for ourselves before God on what we did or attained in this life … faith then is the trust that Jesus will indeed justify us … that we do not place any confidence in anything we have done in this life but we place all of our confidence in the mercy of Christ.

I then ask the question that the reformers asked us … how much “faith” is enough. Is there is a minimum and can it be quantified? I do not think the amount of faith is the question though. We as Christians should be asking what is the purity of our faith … we must examine daily our motives behind anything we do … including faith.

That is being honest with ourselves and with God.

you are right nc. Paul continued to teach what had been revealed to him by God about the importance of our works.

Rom 2:5-11
6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.