Well lets call a spade a spade shall we? The word alone is never used in conjunction with Faith accept in James 2 and it says the exact opposite of what you believe. It says “you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”. To believe in “faith alone” for justification is to ignore a whole lot of scripture.
Christ was quite clear about the need for Baptism to become a child of God. In his nocturnal teachings to Nicodemus as found in John 3:1-5
Paul’s letter can not possibly contain every thing - that is why he went and spoke to many of the Churches - you can always say more verbally then you can write.
(And, how about that, we are into Oral Tradition! - could be another break in the paragraph!! ) OK, I’ll stop…
I cannot find anything here that departs from the Apostolic Teaching preserved in the Catholic Church.Hi, firstmode,
Thank you for your post. I read and re-read the material and found it quite interesting.
Prior to reading this, I was not familiar with Arminius - only Calvin. Now, after having read these 5 positon statemes - and them alone - I am thinking that they sound like the Catholic teachings:
**(1) Though born a sinner, mankind is given a spark of divine grace that enables him to respond positively to God.
(2) God does not arbitrarily consign some people to eternal damnation; their willful rejection of God’s salvation makes them responsible.
(3) Christ died for every person, even though some refuse to accept the provision for their salvation
(4) No person is forced against his or her will to become a Christian.
(5) One’s salvation can be lost through willful disobedience. **
Now, how the Assemblies of God actually explains these items, and their other beliefs is not a question - just these 5 as writen and presented.
Here is question to the list, have I missed something here? Are these actually teachings of the CC?
Thanks for your help.
God bless
I feel really relieved I did not miss something.Now, I guess that the Assemblies of God have been seen as causing another major break with world-wide Protestantism. But, these 5 items certainly sound good to me. I am curious when the group is going to address the Real Presence?
Yes, this is what you believe. But the Scriptures state nothing about “initial” justification or “initial” salvation. Only the FACT of justification and salvation, and that by/through faith alone, and states nothing about baptism being the cause. It’s those who have believed and are saved/justified through faith in Christ alone, that are to be subsequently baptized.
If justification can be lost through sin then God’s testimony concerning His Son as a final, propitiatory and redemptive sacrifice for sins, is a lie; and the cross, where He bore ALL our sins, once for all, is rendered insignificant.
I think no such thing. What I do know, however, is that according to the Scriptures, a man’s salvation is not based on his actions (works), but that of the Theanthopic Man, the man Christ Jesus; His finished work on the cross on man’s behalf. In respect to salvation/justification, man’s responsibility is to believe the testimony of God concerning Christ and His work. It is God Himself who then saves and justifies through faith alone.
Go back and read my leading argument again and you must admit that I cannot retract my statement.
But in conjunction with salvation and justification, faith is stated alone:Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;"
The context is demonstrating one’s faith through works. See Ja. 2:18. The difference between a mere “said” faith and a true faith. James must be understood in context.
Actually, based on just what I’ve posted above (and those are just a few), it’s you who ignore a whole lot of Scripture.
Baptism isn’t mentioned in those passages. The need was to be born again. Peter speaks of being “born again,” and not in reference to baptism either:1 Pet 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope (how? through baptism? No) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."Peter’s not speaking of a future salvation, but a future revealing.
It’s not a requirement for salvation, but it’s the saved who are to be baptized. Those who believe are to be subsequently baptized. But it’s not the baptism through which God saves them, it’s their belief.
It’s those who have become “disciples” that are then baptized.
What makes you think you ever had it?Yes. I only wish I lost it much sooner.
I agree with those passages 100%. But nowhere does it say what you are trying to make it say. Yes faith is very important in the salvation process. Eph 2:10 says that God has prepared good works for us beforehand that we should walk in them, doesn’t it. So, it is God’s will that we do these good works that He has set aside for us, right? Well, what if we don’t do them? Are we still saved? The Bible says, “NO!” Matt 7:21, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in Heaven.” So, we must do these good works to get into Heaven, right? But, we can only do them by the grace of God.
" is always stated alone. It is not in the least bit a stretch to conclude that according to the Scriptures salvation and justification are based on faith alone.The context is demonstrating one’s faith through works. See Ja. 2:18. The difference between a mere “said” faith and a true faith. James must be understood in context.Actually, based on just what I’ve posted above (and those are just a few), it’s you who ignore a whole lot of Scripture.
your response was:
which I assumes means this:
So yes, I believe that we can lose Grace and our salvation. That does not make the the Cross insignificant. The cross is very significant because without it you can not be saved.
Do Catholics believe that works save them?
Moondweller,
But you read right over the word water and deny that baptism is first.
All of those statements say that Faith is important. The references in Romans, Hebrews and Galations are actually meant to show that works ALONE are insufficient and that you need Faith in Jesus as well. This was defending the faith against the Jews. Afterall, if works alone were required, there would be no benefit to becoming a Christian.
Probably the same thing that makes you think you have it. You don’t really know until you die.What makes you think you ever had it?
You have got to be kidding me.
No, Bramble, we don’t. We believe that Jesus Christ saves us, and that he’s the judge in these matters. What presumption adheres to this question, “Who is saved?” None of us, Catholic or Protestant, know the answer. Christ is the judge.
I’m not trying to “make” them say anything. They speak for themselves.
In Scripture salvation is not described as a “process,” but a divine “gift” upon faith in Christ:Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works…"The words “have been” are not congruent with your “process” concept.Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”“He saved us…” reflects a one time act of God. And we know that according to the Scriptures that this He did at the time of personal faith in Jesus Christ:Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"Paul and his companions didn’t say to the jailer, “You will begin the process of salvation.” Peter at the council in Jerusalem said:Acts 15:7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe…and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."The issue was saved by faith plus conformity to the Law or else saved by faith alone. The latter prevailed. This was Paul’s gospel message to the Gentiles:Gal 3:22-24 "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.The true believer is now “created (past tense) in Christ Jesus FOR good works” that he should walk in them (Eph. 2:10), but he is not being “created in Christ Jesus” BY those works. The walking in good works is present tense, but “created” in Christ (the “Last Adam”) is a past, completed action on God’s part at the time of true belief:2 Tim 1:8-9 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with {me} in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God (the cross), who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”
Yes. But in context those in vs. 7 are BELIEVERS; those in vs. 8 are UNBELIEVERS. The saved will receive “rewards” for any works that are of value (1 Cor. 3:10-15). But the believer’s salvation was gifted “by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). IOW, it’s not a “reward” for works well done, but a divine gift according to infinite GRACE.
Yes, but it’s through FAITH that God saves; love is the fruit of the Spirit who now indwells the saved. The reason the Holy Spirit can now indwell the saved is because they’ve been redeemed, forgiven and cleansed (purged) of ALL sins through Christ’s sacrificial death (Heb. 1:3).
