Someone can lose their salvation?

[broski234]

Do Catholics believe that works save them?

No, works in and of themselves do not save you. Works are necessary in the salvation process in response to God’s grace. Catholics believe we are saved by God’s grace and God’s grace alone. Faith and works are necessary responses to that grace.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Randy Carson,

Let me commend you on your excellent responses. The idea that Baptism could be in some how dismissed as an option, (and this being credited to St. Paul! ) was certainly an astounding statement.

Best wishes,

It is what we believe because this is what the Bible actually says. Unlike some, we aren’t working overtime here to shoehorn the scriptures into our theological presuppositions.

 

[broski234]

Yes, but it’s through FAITH that God saves; love is the fruit of the Spirit who now indwells the saved. The reason the Holy Spirit can now indwell the saved is because they’ve been redeemed, forgiven and cleansed (purged) of ALL sins through Christ’s sacrificial death (Heb. 1:3).

As for the James two passage, Catholicism fails to interpret it in context. It’s been discussed by me and others on this forum many, many times.

No, it’s by God’s grace that we are saved. And salvation is a process. I suggest you read the following article.

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309vbv.asp

Salvation as a present event:

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.

Salvation as a future event:

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

These are in addition to the ones you provided as a past event. Clearly this shows salvation as a process.

 

[broski234]

As for the James two passage, Catholicism fails to interpret it in context. It’s been discussed by me and others on this forum many, many times.

Do explain! You haven’t addressed what I said about James 2:26. The Catholic view is perfectly in alignment with the rest of scripture. So explain your interpretation. A few questions first. Are you infallible moondweller? Is your interpretation of scripture infallible? Could there be a possibility that you are wrong in your interpretation of James 2:26?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NcGolf,

I agree with Mary’s position on this.

What does it say then … specifically about Judas?

In answer to your question, Judas is in a pile of trouble - but, not NECESSARILY in hell.

To say categorically that Judas is in Hell would mean that we know this for a fact - just like we know that the Good Theif is in Heaven… Besides, Judas could have had true contrition immediately before he died of his suicide … and that would take care of his final destination.

Now, in no way is Judas to serve as a role model… and I would not wait for the CC to start a canonization program on hm any time soon… but, the way I learned it, the only one we are sure is in Hell is Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that chose to disobey God,

God bless

 

[ForMary]

What does it say then … specifically about Judas?

That’s a good question.

I don’t know, nor have I ever claimed to know.

It was that you seemed to know for a fact what had become of him that made me curious. I do not pretend for a second that I understand all that is, was or will be.

I can take a guess, though if you want. Perhaps Judas has, in fact, been separated from God eternally. Perhaps he is in purgatory and has not heard or listened for God’s voice who is calling, ceaselessly to all of us to come to Him and it is our choice to respond to that call. Maybe Judas is in heaven. But, again, I don’t know for a fact one way or another. Perhaps Jesus made the statement about it better for [Judas] not to have been born because he figured that the worldly woes that would follow Judas and his name would be severe, or, maybe not…

 

[ncgolf]

Hi, NcGolf,

I agree with Mary’s position on this.

In answer to your question, Judas is in a pile of trouble - but, not NECESSARILY in hell.

To say categorically that Judas is in Hell would mean that we know this for a fact - just like we know that the Good Theif is in Heaven… Besides, Judas could have had true contrition immediately before he died of his suicide … and that would take care of his final destination.

Now, in no way is Judas to serve as a role model… and I would not wait for the CC to start a canonization program on hm any time soon… but, the way I learned it, the only one we are sure is in Hell is Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that chose to disobey God,

God bless

Infalliably I do not know, neither does the Church … and my words don’t condemn Judas either … but the verse does indicate that this more than a distinct possibility. Why would Jesus say it will better if you had never been born … Jesus is telling us something about him, only somebody who knew the future could say that … otherwise it would be speculation.

One must contrast Peter and Judas … as they did both do similiar things … in the same timeframes and now one is a canonized Saint and the other … well that’s the question.

But … I make no claims on the mercy of God.

The question is not reallly who is there but the consquences of sin are real … this is no make-believe … and if it can happen to those that close to Christ … how further removed are we.

But yea … this is only an opinion.

 

[ForMary]

Jesus is telling us something about him, **only somebody who knew the future **could say that … otherwise it would be speculation.

Hmm…we might want to be careful here, it is much easier for us to accept Jesus’ divinity than it is to accept Him as fully human.

However, if we are to believe in the Trinity; 3 separate and distinct persons as one God. Then don’t we have to? Jesus might be inspired by the Holy Spirit to certain understandings, but we cannot attribute the characteristics of God the Father to God the Son without disregarding the teachings on the Trinity that tell us that Jesus was fully human.

…at least that’s my read on this particular enchilada…

 

[ncgolf]

Hi, NcGolf,

I agree with Mary’s position on this.

Here is an interesting read witha reference to Judas, especially with Lent coming up.

The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ

From the Meditations of Anne Catherine Emmerich

She is Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich now. In this writing Jesus does communicate with Judas’s soul in hell. The event occurs after His death but before the Resurrection. I think there are PDF’s available on the internet.

As a side note Mel Gibson got some of the material for his movie, The Passion of the Christ, from these writings.

Just another source.

 

[moondweller]

Randy Carson:

Therefore, for those who propose that Paul taught justification by faith alone, a very haunting question remains: Why didn’t Paul use the specific phrase “faith alone” anywhere in his New Testament writings?

Why should he? It’s clearly taught every time he writes “justified by faith.” For example:Gal 3:24-26 “Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Rom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (i.e., in Adam) and (continually] fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"As Paul said in Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

Israel was obligated, by covenant, to perform the works demanded by the Mosaic Law. But that covenant, made with national Israel (which included the Decalogue), ended at the cross of Christ and now only “{the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe” remains. IOW, the only righteousness that God accepts is that which comes through FAITH alone in Christ alone. God Himself provides that righteousness (which is what justification means) through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and that through His redemptive work on the cross. Through that work alone. For this reason it is said to be gifted according to GRACE (Rom. 3:24).

Paul’s theological logic resounds clearly in the heart of all who have turned to Christ by faith alone:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."His gospel in a nutshell:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "{He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."Those who continue to work FOR salvation stumble over the simplicity of the gospel message of faith in Christ alone, failing to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (true believers, lit., holy ones).

There’s a vast difference between works FOR salvation and the works performed BY the saved. The former cannot ever be achieved, the latter will be appraised and rewarded accordingly.

 

[ncgolf]

Hmm…we might want to be careful here, it is much easier for us to accept Jesus’ divinity than it is to accept Him as fully human.

However, if we are to believe in the Trinity; 3 separate and distinct persons as one God. Then don’t we have to? Jesus might be inspired by the Holy Spirit to certain understandings, but we cannot attribute the characteristics of God the Father to God the Son without disregarding the teachings on the Trinity that tell us that Jesus was fully human.

…at least that’s my read on this particular enchilada…

His humanity was always present fully as was his divinity. How these balanced in the person of Christ is tough to get one’s arms around. It seems at times one aspect did reach out and became more observable … like when Jesus wept at the Tomb of Lazarus … his humanity on full display … real tears and sadness. His divinity still fully present but at least to us … a little more hidden … as opposed to Jesus’s divinity more observable at the verse with Judas with his ability to see Judas’s destiny.

I really don’t see an issue … but then again my glasses may need some cleaning.

 

[ncgolf]

Paul’s theological logic resounds clearly in the heart of all who have turned to Christ by faith alone: Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

I think you take this out of context of the whole Chapter 11. Paul is talking about the Remant of Israel …and talking about why did not all the Jews accept Christ. That is the subject of Chapter 11.

I will start with Romans 6 5:8 … with a different perspective.

5 So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.”

He took only a portion(a remnant) of the Jews for a reason, only a few were chosen … why would God leave so many of his chosen people … in essence he gave them in “a spirit of deep sleep.” It sounds like God did this on purpose … God gave them eyes that could not see and ears that should not hear… Why???

Romans 11:11 “from their transgressions salvation has come to the Gentiles.” For Christianity to fully take off … it had to split from Judaism … it could not be a sect of Judaism … so God took many of His chosen people and for the good of all Gentiles (non-Jews) and the spread of the Gospel He did not allow them to see the Messiah … they were blinded by God … for a purpose.

Read what Paul says in 11:17-21 … Paul says the Gentiles, a “wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have to come to share in the rich root of the olive tree.” What is the olive tree … the faithful … God cleaved so others may be grafted … we the Gentiles are the wild olive shoot … Paul says grafted. The Gentiles will prosper in what the Jews had been cultivating for 2000 years.

Verse 20-21 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.

This is a warning … if God could cut the branches of the tree that you were grafted onto by faith and God did not spare the original … We are the grafted ones … This is not an absolute assurance … far from it. Paul says specifically you are here by faith … but perhaps he will not spare you either … where is your absolute assurance.

Verse 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Jews will be grafted back to the tree … and how much more glory will they have because they were part of the original tree not the wild olive tree.

I think when you cherry pick verses you missed what Paul is saying in Chapter 11 … Paul is not saying what you think he is saying and taking pieces of Paul out of context … you miss the warning he gives to those of faith.

 

[moondweller]

ForMary:

I don’t know, nor have I ever claimed to know.

It was that you seemed to know for a fact what had become of him that made me curious. I do not pretend for a second that I understand all that is, was or will be.

I can take a guess, though if you want. Perhaps Judas has, in fact, been separated from God eternally. Perhaps he is in purgatory and has not heard or listened for God’s voice who is calling, ceaselessly to all of us to come to Him and it is our choice to respond to that call. Maybe Judas is in heaven. But, again, I don’t know for a fact one way or another. Perhaps Jesus made the statement about it better for [Judas] not to have been born because he figured that the worldly woes that would follow Judas and his name would be severe, or, maybe not…

Can one called a “son of perdition (destruction)” be in heaven? This is what Jesus called Judas in Jn. 17:12. It is also the same term used of the coming antichrist revealed in 2 Thess. 2:3, also revealed as the “man of sin,” or “man of lawlessness,” depending on the manuscript. But in both Jn. 17:12 and 2 Thess. 2:3 it’s: “o uios tês apôleias:” “the son of perdition.”

Neither Judas nor the man described in 2 Thess. 2:3 are called “saints.” The endearing term used in the Bible for all true believers. I think the Biblical evidence speaks for itself. Neither of these men, identified by the same damning appellation, ever had salvation to lose. Judas never believed, and the man to come in the future never will either.

 

[paul_c]

Why should he? It’s clearly taught every time he writes “justified by faith.” For example:Gal 3:24-26 “Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Rom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (i.e., in Adam) and (continually] fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"As Paul said in Rom. 10:4: “For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

Israel was obligated, by covenant, to perform the works demanded by the Mosaic Law. But that covenant, made with national Israel (which included the Decalogue), ended at the cross of Christ and now only “{the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe” remains. IOW, the only righteousness that God accepts is that which comes through FAITH alone in Christ alone. God Himself provides that righteousness (which is what justification means) through faith in Jesus Christ alone, and that through His redemptive work on the cross. Through that work alone. For this reason it is said to be gifted according to GRACE (Rom. 3:24).

Paul’s theological logic resounds clearly in the heart of all who have turned to Christ by faith alone:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."His gospel in a nutshell:Rom 4:25 - 5:2 "{He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."Those who continue to work FOR salvation stumble over the simplicity of the gospel message of faith in Christ alone, failing to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (true believers, lit., holy ones).

There’s a vast difference between works FOR salvation and the works performed BY the saved. The former cannot ever be achieved, the latter will be appraised and rewarded accordingly.

We Catholics could agree with all of this. You can NOT be saved by works. We all agree with this. And those that have been saved (by Faith through grace with Baptism) WILL be appraised and rewarded accordingly. We would add: If the appraisal is that they haven’t remained in the state of Grace by doing those works expected of them, instead chosing to turn from God through sin, they will be condemned to hell. This defines the ramifications of the appraisal or judgment…

 

[qui_est_ce]

Matthew 26:24-25, 24 “The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; **but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” **25 And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself.”

Elsewhere, Jesus Woes the Pharisees.
*
Matthew 23:
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!

33"You snakes! You brood of vipers!** How will you escape being condemned to hell? **34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. *

If Jesus said “Woe” to me, I’d clean up my act fast!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Moondweller,

This is more of a mechanical observation then a profound theological insight:

Israel was obligated, by covenant, to perform the works demanded by the Mosaic Law. But that covenant, made with national Israel (which included the Decalogue), ended at the cross of Christ and now only “{the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe” remains.

Saul was very much a Pharasiee when Christ died and rose again. For Saul - nothing changed as far as the Law and its observance was concerned at the foot of the Cross. It was Temple business as usual from Easter Sunday on. And, this is the way it was for all of the other Jews who did not know Christ.

That is the mechanical aspect. The book of Romans - written by the former Saul - was probably written during the winter of 56-57 from Corinth.

Could it be that Paul was addressing those who were still practicing the Mosaic Law - a ritualistic set of codified practices that the Jews had made into a mere sham of what they were intended to be. These “works” are really quite different from the WORKS idenfitied at the end of Matthew: feed the hungary, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, etc.

And, just so there is no misunderstanding - we do not save ourselves with any ‘works’. We are saved by the super bountiful merits of Jesus Christ - and by our cooperation with Faith as demonstrated by our expression of Charity to our neighbor.

God bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

Hi, Moondweller,

And, just so there is no misunderstanding - we do not save ourselves with any ‘works’. We are saved by the super bountiful merits of Jesus Christ - and by our cooperation with Faith as demonstrated by our expression of Charity to our neighbor.

God bless

And weren’t Lucifer and his minions also in Heaven but rebelled? Doesn’t the Devil believe in God? I would like to know if Moondweller agrees with this definition of Faith

*Hebrews
Chapter 11
1
1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. *

Faith is obviously more than just believing that “Jesus Saves.”

 

[qui_est_ce]

Why should he? It’s clearly taught every time he writes “justified by faith.”

What do you do about the other verses cited here that seem to contradict Paul? Was Paul a liar? Was James a liar? Was Jesus a liar when He said the sheep would be separated from the goats at the Last Judgement? Is this a mistake in the Bible?

Moon, you seem to worship Paul’s words over the very words of Jesus. By your definition of Faith, it is a works-based salvation. You are leaving out God’s divine mercy. We do not save ourselves, it is God’s grace first, then our cooperation with his grace.

 

[moondweller]

We Catholics could agree with all of this. You can NOT be saved by works. We all agree with this.

You don’t agree with any of it, and you do believe you can be saved by works. That’s what you’re arguing for.

And those that have been saved (by Faith through grace with Baptism) WILL be appraised and rewarded accordingly.

It’s not the believer that’s appraised, but his works. It’s his works that are appraised, not him (see 1 Cor. 3:10-15).

We would add: If the appraisal is that they haven’t remained in the state of Grace by doing those works expected of them,

Translated: Salvation by works.

instead chosing to turn from God through sin, they will be condemned to hell.

Translated: The insignificance of the cross.

This defines the ramifications of the appraisal or judgment…

What you define is salvation by works and the impotence of the cross as a sin sacrifice.

 

[moondweller]

Quote:
Originally Posted by moondweller
Salvation in the Scriptures is a divine undertaking for the believer from his deliverance out of the lost estate to his final presentation in glory conformed to the image of Christ. Since the divine objective is thus all-inclusive, the theme is divided naturally into three tenses: (1) PAST, when he believed (Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:8-9; Titus 3:5); an unchanging FACT. The believer, at the time of faith was completely delivered from his lost estate, cleansed, forgiven, justified, born of God, clothed in the merit of Christ, freed from all condemnation and safe for evermore. That’s what “saved” means. (2) PRESENT, the believer is being saved (kept by grace) from the dominion of sin, divinely preserved and sanctified through the High Priestly work of the risen Christ (Heb. 7:25). (3) FUTURE, the believer is yet to be saved from the presence of sin when presented faultless and glorified (bodily) in glory (Phil. 3:20-21).

Having written the above, can you not see how it perfectly describes Catholic sotierology:

* Past: this refers to initial justification, **when we are baptized**
* Present: Exactly, the believer is kept in grace **through good works** and the sacrament of reconciliation when he fails.
* Future: Exactly, the believer is yet to be saved from the presence of sin, **but must persevere until death, when if he remains in grace and is purified through penance and perhaps, purgatory**, he will be presented fautless and glorified in Glory

Examine the two statements carefully, Paul, and you’ll see what I stated is vastly different from what you say describes Catholic soteriology. The former is salvation, past, present and future, based totally on God’s infinite grace through faith. Yours, the latter, is salvation, past present, future, conditionally based on human works.