Someone can lose their salvation?

[paul_c]

You don’t agree with any of it, and you do believe you can be saved by works. That’s what you’re arguing for.It’s not the believer that’s appraised, but his works. It’s his works that are appraised, not him (see 1 Cor. 3:10-15).Translated: Salvation by works.Translated: The insignificance of the cross.What you define is salvation by works and the impotence of the cross as a sin sacrifice.

Moondweller,
Why can’t you work with the way we define our beliefs, instead of constantly TRANSLATING our words into what you think we believe? I completely disagree with your translations and have told you so on multiple occasions. Can you not grasp the differences between what we say and what you think we say?

Do you really think that the only way the cross could be significant is if we were saved once and for all time? Isn’t it just as significant if it allowed us to be saved. period. Even if we could subsequently lose our salvation?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, moondweller,

It is apparent that you are only interested in arguing rather then discussing. This post spouts bluster yet not one item of teaching from the CC that supports your totally unsupportable statements is offered.

You don’t agree with any of it, and you do believe you can be saved by works. That’s what you’re arguing for.It’s not the believer that’s appraised, but his works.

I don’t know about anyone else, but, it is really tedious for me to read such material.

Translated: Salvation by works.Translated: The insignificance of the cross.What you define is salvation by works and the impotence of the cross as a sin sacrifice.

Numerous posters have identified that no one can ‘save themselves by works’. No one has claimed that the CC is teaching ‘salvation through works’ - and then offered credible evidence to support this accusation. I honestly have no idea what else it takes to prove this point. The bottom line is really quite simple: there is no salvation outside of Christ and the Church He established with Peter as its Foundation.

Did any of the ‘Reformers’ offer miracles and demonstrate that they had been empowered by God to undo the work done by Jesus Christ? NO.

Did any of the ‘Reformers’ claim Divine Inspiration and re-write the entire Bible because of the obvious errors and corruption in the Canon? NO.

Did any of the ‘Reformers’ rise from the dead to prove that they were truly God’s Messenger in redirecting the entire flock away from the Catholic Church that had been established by Christ? NO.

As I see it, proving that Scripture Alone or Faith Alone is what Christ commanded is something that cries out for proof. And, since the tearing of the Body of Christ in 1600, those cries have remained unanswered. There is no proof for this otherr gospel.

God bless

 

[moondweller]

I think you take this out of context of the whole Chapter 11. Paul is talking about the Remant of Israel …and talking about why did not all the Jews accept Christ. That is the subject of Chapter 11.

No, I did not take Rom. 11:6 out of context. It’s the principle by which there’s a Jewish remnant in the church today (vs. 5). It’s the basic principle of all salvation:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Romans eleven is revealing God’s overall present program for Gentiledom and His yet future program for national Israel.

National Israel was broken off from the olive tree because of its unbelief. Their rejection of Messiah, her King. (see vs. 20). And the prophetic program for the promised, Davidic Kingdom with Jesus ruling on His father David’s throne in Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32-33) was postponed; and God has instead turned primarily to the Gentiles to build His church, but within His church is a remnant of Jewish believers.

But this partial hardening that has happened to ISRAEL is only temporary. It has happened only UNTIL the “fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (vs. 25) That is, until all the Gentiles that will come into the church (not the RCC), during this church age, through faith in Christ, have come in. Then the church is taken up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air to be with Him forever (Jn. 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:15-18; 2 Thess. 2:1).

THEN God will turn again to national Israel to fulfill His prophetic promises and unconditional covenants with her (vss. 26-29).

You grossly misinterpret Romans chapter eleven because you fail to understand the difference between the church Christ is presently building (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 2:20-22), calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles through faith in Christ alone, and that of national Israel, with whom God will yet fulfill the prophetic promises and unconditional covenants He made with her.

The church lost these truths when it early on embraced the allegorical method of interpreting Scripture.

 

[ncgolf]

No, I did not take Rom. 11:6 out of context. It’s the principle by which there’s a Jewish remnant in the church today (vs. 5). It’s the basic principle of all salvation:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Romans eleven is revealing God’s overall present program for Gentiledom and His yet future program for national Israel.

National Israel was broken off from the olive tree because of its unbelief. Their rejection of Messiah, her King. (see vs. 20). And the prophetic program for the promised, Davidic Kingdom with Jesus ruling on His father David’s throne in Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32-33) was postponed; and God has instead turned primarily to the Gentiles to build His church, but within His church is a remnant of Jewish believers.

But this partial hardening that has happened to ISRAEL is only temporary. It has happened only UNTIL the “fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (vs. 25) That is, until all the Gentiles that will come into the church (not the RCC), during this church age, through faith in Christ, have come in. Then the church is taken up (raptured) to meet the Lord in the air to be with Him forever (Jn. 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:15-18; 2 Thess. 2:1).

THEN God will turn again to national Israel to fulfill His prophetic promises and unconditional covenants with her (vss. 26-29).

You grossly misinterpret Romans chapter eleven because you fail to understand the difference between the church Christ is presently building (Matt. 16:18; Eph. 2:20-22), calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles through faith in Christ alone, and that of national Israel, with whom God will yet fulfill the prophetic promises and unconditional covenants He made with her.

The church lost these truths when it early on embraced the allegorical method of interpreting Scripture.

I don’t totally agree but Wow … you totally ignore the warning to those of faith, who were grafted on by faith.

Verse 20-21 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.

Who is becoming haughty and perhaps will not be spared … who is Paul talking about?

 

[moondweller]

I don’t totally agree but Wow … you totally ignore the warning to those of faith, who were grafted on by faith.

Verse 20-21 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.

Who is becoming haughty and perhaps will not be spared … who is Paul talking about?

**Gentiledom!**Rom 11:13 "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

Rom 11:25 “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;” Not the church made up of believing Jews and Gentiles Christ is presently building. When Gentiledom, to whom God turned to with the message of salvation by grace through faith, turns away from that grace through faith salvation message and adopts religious works instead, then Gentiledom, too, like national Israel was, will be broken off from their present position of privilege.

Paul is writing to Gentile believers but informing them about Gentiledom and its temporary position of privilege through faith alone during this church age. The church is primarily Gentile.

Romans eleven is not about true believers, as individuals, losing their salvation. But God’s present program with bringing in the “fulness of the Gentiles” into the church and His future prophetic program yet to be fulfilled with national Israel.

Israel, against all odds, back as a nation in their ancient homeland is of no small significance. Nor is it insignificant that the gospel message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is increasingly rejected by Gentiles and numerous “Christian” (I use the word loosely) churches.

 

[christmary4ever]

Judas Iscariot lost his salvation.

Someone told me that Judas was never saved anyway at any point in time. the person told me that true faith will secure
salvation.

 

[moondweller]

Question:

Orthodox, Rabbinical Judaism considers a Jew no longer a Jew when he believes in Jesus Christ for salvation. Do Catholics also consider someone no longer a Catholic when he turns completely away from works and embraces, by faith (alone), the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, alone, for his salvation?

 

[paul_c]

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by moondweller
Salvation in the Scriptures is a divine undertaking for the believer from his deliverance out of the lost estate to his final presentation in glory conformed to the image of Christ. Since the divine objective is thus all-inclusive, the theme is divided naturally into three tenses: (1) PAST, when he believed (Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:8-9; Titus 3:5); an unchanging FACT. The believer, at the time of faith was completely delivered from his lost estate, cleansed, forgiven, justified, born of God, clothed in the merit of Christ, freed from all condemnation and safe for evermore. That’s what “saved” means. (2) PRESENT, the believer is being saved (kept by grace) from the dominion of sin, divinely preserved and sanctified through the High Priestly work of the risen Christ (Heb. 7:25). (3) FUTURE, the believer is yet to be saved from the presence of sin when presented faultless and glorified (bodily) in glory (Phil. 3:20-21).

Quote: originally posted by paul c
Having written the above, can you not see how it perfectly describes Catholic sotierology:

• Past: this refers to initial justification, when we are baptized
• Present: Exactly, the believer is kept in grace through good works and the sacrament of reconciliation when he fails.
• Future: Exactly, the believer is yet to be saved from the presence of sin, but must persevere until death, when if he remains in grace and is purified through penance and perhaps, purgatory, he will be presented fautless and glorified in Glory

Examine the two statements carefully, Paul, and you’ll see what I stated is vastly different from what you say describes Catholic soteriology. The former is salvation, past, present and future, based totally on God’s infinite grace through faith. Yours, the latter, is salvation, past present, future, conditionally based on human works.

Moondweller, it seems to me that the Catholic sotierology truly has a past, present and future, whereas your only has a past. Once you are saved, in your construct, nothing more matters and therefore nothing more needs be done. And that’s the problem. What is the point of life in your theology, once someone has been saved? Once you are guaranteed your spot in Heaven, how can anything else have meaning?

You see, in the Catholic view, life always has meaning. In fact its sacred because as long as you live, you can still be saved, you can still help save others and you can continue to work on your sanctity. And on the downside, you can still lose grace and be condemned.

Moondweller, as soon as you comprehend the fact that man was made in the image and likeness of God by virtue of his ability to reason and to use his will freely within the constraints of his capability, you will be swimming the Tiber. That is all that separates you from the true joy of Catholicism. Everything else will follow for you because for you, the impediment to the truth is you are worried that man’s freedom, freely granted by God, somehow diminishes Christ’s paschal sacrifice. At some point, you will recognize that nothing can diminish God or impact his plan. You will further recognize that Jesus’s sacrifice was in fact more powerful in its ability to lead free people back to God than it would be if it merely was the yoke of slavery to men you had no choice.

I am predicting that this realization, whenever it comes, will be as powerful to you as it was to St. Paul, who was knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus when God’s truth finally became clear to him. I’m not saying that Jesus will appear to you as he did to Paul. For most people, it is simply a spark of the truth that enters the former darkness. But you are being compelled to seek the truth. No one spends several hours a day for multiple years on a Catholic website without being drawn to the truth by God… And when you do reach this point, you will be a tremendous Catholic advocate…

---

 

[paul_c]

Question:

Orthodox, Rabbinical Judaism considers a Jew no longer a Jew when he believes in Jesus Christ for salvation. Do Catholics also consider someone no longer a Catholic when he turns completely away from works and embraces, by faith (alone), the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, alone, for his salvation?

Moondweller, why would you suggest that a Catholic stop doing good works. Don’t you recognize that Good works are always done by someone who is saved? Even your sotierology teaches that, does in not? Surely you can’t be saying that someone who is saved does evil? Furthermore, you can’t be advocating to stop doing good works to demonstrate that you are trusting in Christ sacrifice alone, are you?

Once baptized a Catholic remains a Catholic unless they choose to leave. And remember, one that has been excommunicated has chosen to leave by his/her actions in opposition to the church.

 

[ncgolf]

Gentiledom!

In an abstract way you could say that but Paul is not abstract here he is talking personally to each of his listeners, not as Gentiles but as fellow believers … Remember there are no Greeks or Jews, slaves or freemen all are one in Christ Jesus. I dont even know what Gentiledom is. There is only in Christ Jesus or not in Christ Jesus.

Rom 11:25 “For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;”
Not the church made up of believing Jews and Gentiles Christ is presently building. When Gentiledom, to whom God turned to with the message of salvation by grace through faith, turns away from that grace through faith salvation message and adopts religious works instead, then Gentiledom, too, like national Israel was, will be broken off from their present position of privilege.

Paul is not that complicated here … I have no idea what you are even saying … there is no mention of salvation, works, priveledge. Plainly … the partial hardening is partly of God’s doing … it is part of the plan but why this is happening is indeed mysterious.

Paul is writing to Gentile believers but informing them about Gentiledom and its temporary position of privilege through faith alone during this church age. The church is primarily Gentile.

He is not informing them about something he does even mention … my gosh … Paul is upset because the newly converted Gentiles are so smug because they believe and most of the Jews don’t. The Church is primarily Gentile but led by Jewish converts because that is God’s plan. Paul is revealing part of the plan of God’s plan for both the Gentiles and the Jews.

Romans eleven is not about true believers, as individuals, losing their salvation. But God’s present program with bringing in the “fulness of the Gentiles” into the church and His future prophetic program yet to be fulfilled with national Israel.

I tell you this there is no mention of law or works or anything … the only thing that Paul says brought you here (grafting onto the olive tree) is faith … and if you think that is enough … think again … his advice … quit thinking you are so special lest you be cleaved too. This is classic Pauline chastisement … and man was he good at it. Paul did not want the Gentiles to lord it over the Jews.

Israel, against all odds, back as a nation in their ancient homeland is of no small significance.

Nooooo … you miss a greater significance … we as believers (the wild olive shoot) were grafted to the original tree. The Jews (the original tree) will be regrafted onto the original … the ultimate reality will be indeed there will no Jew or Gentile … we all will be in Christ Jesus.

Nor is it insignificant that the gospel message of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone is increasingly rejected by Gentiles and numerous “Christian” (I use the word loosely) churches.

This is something I think you throw in every time … just to remind yourself.

You are the one misreading and misusing Paul.

The warning of this verse is real …
Verse 20-21 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. 21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either.

 

[ncgolf]

Question:

Orthodox, Rabbinical Judaism considers a Jew no longer a Jew when he believes in Jesus Christ for salvation. Do Catholics also consider someone no longer a Catholic when he turns completely away from works and embraces, by faith (alone), the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, alone, for his salvation?

No we do not because of his baptism that person carries the mark on His soul of being grafted unto Christ … that cannot be undone.

But I would say the person left an uncatechized Catholic and remains an uncatechized Catholic in whatever faith the person turns to.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Someone told me that Judas was never saved anyway at any point in time. the person told me that true faith will secure
salvation.

Well that’s just anti-Catholic.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller, why would you suggest that a Catholic stop doing good works.

I suggested nothing of the sort. I was asking a question about works, salvation and one’s identity as a Catholic.

Don’t you recognize that Good works are always done by someone who is saved?

I do indeed. But my question is about a Catholic who turns away from works as a basis for his salvation completely and instead turns, by faith, to the Person and finished, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone. Is he then considered non-Catholic? Would he be considered “anathema?”

Surely you can’t be saying that someone who is saved does evil?

Surely not. But that’s not context of my question.

Furthermore, you can’t be advocating to stop doing good works to demonstrate that you are trusting in Christ sacrifice alone, are you?

The context of my question was not demonstrating one’s faith through works, but turning completely away from works as having any basis for one’s salvation and embracing, by faith, the Person and sacrificial work Jesus Christ alone.

Once baptized a Catholic remains a Catholic unless they choose to leave. And remember, one that has been excommunicated has chosen to leave by his/her actions in opposition to the church.

Does turning away from works to faith in Christ and His sacrificial work alone for salvation oppose your church and qualify for excommunication? Would you consider this person a non-Catholic and to have lost his salvation?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi, Randy Carson,

Let me commend you on your excellent responses. The idea that Baptism could be in some how dismissed as an option, (and this being credited to St. Paul! ) was certainly an astounding statement.

Best wishes,

:tiphat:

 

[paul_c]

I suggested nothing of the sort. I was asking a question about works, salvation and one’s identity as a Catholic.I do indeed. But my question is about a Catholic who turns away from works as a basis for his salvation completely and instead turns, by faith, to the Person and finished, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ alone. Is he then considered non-Catholic? Would he be considered "anathema?"Surely not. But that’s not context of my question.The context of my question was not demonstrating one’s faith through works, but turning completely away from works as having any basis for one’s salvation and embracing, by faith, the Person and sacrificial work Jesus Christ alone.Does turning away from works to faith in Christ and His sacrificial work alone for salvation oppose your church and qualify for excommunication? Would you consider this person a non-Catholic and to have lost his salvation?

Moondweller,
This is all part of your misunderstanding of what it means to be a Catholic. Catholics aren’t opposed to putting their faith in Christ. In fact, the Catholic Church teaches that there are 3 Theological virtues:

• Faith- in God
• Hope- that they will experience God’s promise of eternal life
• Love - for both God and Neighbor - you might call this works

Why would you ever think that A Catholic would be excommunicated for demonstrating the values of Faith and Hope.

Now, are you asking for Catholics to stop loving to demonstrate their undying support of Faith and Hope? You have read 1 corinthians 13 so you know that of the three Theological virtues, Love is the most important …

And remember, Works is not the basis of our sotierology, despite your efforts to categorize it that way.

Salvation starts with God’s free, unmerited gift of Grace through the cleansing of sin in Baptism.

If a Catholic dies directly after baptism, they die in Grace and will go to Heaven, without doing a single Good work.

Once baptized, we must stay in the state of Grace through Faith, Hope and Love (which you would call works). If we fall to temptation and sin, we must be restored to Grace through the sacrament of reconciliation.

So asking :

Does turning away from works to faith in Christ and His sacrificial work alone for salvation oppose your church and qualify for excommunication

is to completely misunderstand Catholic sotierology…

Even in your own religious tradition, would you ever advise anyone to do as you suggest in your question - to stop doing good works and to rely completely on God’s mercy for salvation?
If someone did that, wouldn’t your judgment be that that person isn’t really one of the saved?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Why should he? It’s clearly taught every time he writes “justified by faith.”

I see.

So Paul, the “Pharisee of Pharisees”, was so unconcerned with passing on the faith with precision that he never bothered to write, “We are justified by faith alone” even though that’s what he actually meant?

And the Holy Spirit, who has perfect foreknowledge, never inspired Paul or any other writer of the New Testament to pen the words “justified by faith alone” even though He knew that Christianity would be divided over this very issue a mere 1500 years later?

Compounding this error, the Holy Spirit actually inspired James to write “a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

Weird. What was God thinking?

Those who continue to work FOR salvation stumble over the simplicity of the gospel message of faith in Christ alone, failing to “contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints” (true believers, lit., holy ones).

Since Catholics do not perform works in order to earn their salvation, who do you mean here?

There’s a vast difference between works FOR salvation and the works performed BY the saved. The former cannot ever be achieved, the latter will be appraised and rewarded accordingly.

Catholics agree and say, “Amen!”

How many more times do you need to hear this before you stop setting up this strawman?

 

[Randy_Carson]

**TRENT ON JUSTIFICATION
**
CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller, I wanted to point something out to you about Catholic sotierology.

The first step is to be baptized in the Name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

It is entirely possible that you personally may have a valid baptism in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church.

From that point on, you had sufficient sanctifying Grace to be saved unless you turned away from God through Sin.

This is where being a member of the Catholic Church is most helpful.

First of all, it provide the fullest truth on what it takes to do God’s will and stay in Grace.

Secondly, if you happen to fall from Grace, it can sacramentally heal you and reconcile you to God

You should seriously consider this…

 

[guanophore]

How is it you stumble over the cross of Christ but easily hurdle over this blatant contradiction of yours?

It is not Christ’s cross over which Catholics stumble, rather we venerate the cross, on which the prince of glory died.

No, the cross we stumble over is your Reformed “cross”, which creates ideas foreign to apostolic teaching.

If, as you say, it’s God who begins a good work and is FAITHFUL to COMPLETE it, then one is eternally saved according to HIS faithfulness.

God is faithful, and He is able to complete His work. However, mankind can be faithless, and if we deny Him, He will also deny us. He remains faithful to himslelf, because He cannot deny Himself. it is not God’s lack of faith, but ours that causes us to deny Him.

If, as you say, one loses salvation by getting out of the “water,” then the burden of salvation rests not on God to faithfully “complete” what He began, but man.

Well, we see it differently. Catholics see grace as having been poured out for all, from the side of Christ as He hung upon the cross. We avail ourselves of the grace through baptism, whereby we enter into His death, burial, and resurrection. His grace contiues to flow, whether we wish to remain in it, or not. If a person is willing to be brought to perfection, God will certainly do so. If one chooses to spurn the blood of the Lamb who saved them, there is no other sacrifice by which he may be saved.

This is a *works* based salvation, not *faith/grace* based.

Well, I agree. It is a construction that you have created in your own mind, and has little resemblence to Catholic teaching.

The moment he believed the message concerning Christ through Peter. This side of the cross Christ is the object of salvation faith.

the idea that there are "sides’ to the cross is also a modern invention.

Well, you purported that works were of no avail before “salvation”. Yet, clearly the text reveals that Cornelius’ good works ascended to God as a memorial and were pleasing to God prior to his hearing of Peter’s words. Therefore, something is amiss with your formulation.

 

[guanophore]

Moondweller, I know this has to be disconcerting for you. You are clearly a true believer in Jesus Christ and you approach these forums without malice, which says a lot about you. Unfortunately, you were born into (I’m assuming) a reformed environment and you just can’t seem to grasp the point that, Faith is only half the requirement for salvation, but that you also need to live out your faith.

I think this is not a correct assessment of moondweller. I think he is quite clear that it is essential to live out the faith. He just thinks about this from a different perspective than Catholics. He is not one of those deformed offspring of the Reformation who believes that once he is saved, he can do whatever he wants and it will not affect his salvation. Holiness before God is clearly a value for him, and he takes his personal sanctification very seriously.