Someone can lose their salvation?

[qui_est_ce]

We’d agree if you’d leave out your word "initial.

And we’d agree if you left out the word “alone!”

Because Cornelius believed in Him, Cornelius did not die in his sins; he was saved by grace through faith alone.

What is your definition of belief? Can I simply say, "I believe that Jesus died for our sins, " then go about my business of cheating on my taxes, abusing my kids, lying, not praying, and go to Heaven?

What is your definition of being saved? Do you believe ALL are saved, but only SOME will reach eternal salvation?

 

[moondweller]

ncgolf:

You would like the warnings to always go the unbelievers for in your theology that’s all who will need it but that is not true.

Paul’s warning is to all the Gentiles (Gentiledom) to whom God has bestowed the “blessing of Abraham” (justification) by grace through faith alone:Gal 3:14 “…in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”

Gal 3:22 “But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”

Still true today … the qualifier true believer is an odd one … as opposed to what … false believers … well then are they not believers.

They’re not. Just as the Scriptures speak of “false brethren” (2 Cor. 11:26; Gal. 2:4) and false teachers [2 Pet. 2:1).

So many who do leave either did not recieve proper catechesis or left for other reasons. Uncatechized (sp) means simply untaught, unfamiliar … you get the picture.But if an educated Catholic turns away form works to faith in Christ alone for salvation, is that educated Catholic still Catholic? Would that be grounds to excommunicate him?

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

You see, we are not so very far apart. You just lack a few of the elements of truth, the most fundamental being that you fail to recognize the role of man’s free will in salvation and that God willed man to come to him of man’s own accord, and not through the forced adherance to God’s will.

How do you figure? I’ve never said a man is forced to believe in Christ.

No, clearly people go to hell because of Sin.

How does Jn. 8:24 “clearly” state that people go to Hell because of sin? Christ says, “…for unless you believe.” Compare that also with Jn. 3:14-18. Salvation is not a sin factor but a belief factor. John writes:1 John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake"Why for Christ’s name sake? Because He bore our sins and paid the ransom price with His blood, once for all.

Look again at Matthew 25: 31-46. You see the need for sanctification, that would not be necessary if sin wasn’t important.

That passage states nothing about sin or sanctification.

As you know, sin is repellent to God, and we will die in our sins if we don’t repent.

You will die in your sins if you don’t believe, says Jesus.

It is Satan’s goal to make everyone think that sin is inconsequential.

I think rather it is Satan’s goal to make men think the cross is inconsequential, and in respect to sin and salvation, insignificant.

I suspect that deep down you don’t believe that sin is inconsequential and that you personally try to avoid sin. Isn’t this true?

I personally believe sin is a non factor in respect to my salvation. My sins were judicially dealt with, once for all, 2000 years ago on the cross of Christ. I personally believe that what was laid on the Savior, once for all, cannot be laid back on me, the believer.

This is not to diminish the importance of Faith. Intent is a key component of all our actions. If the intent of our good works is for the glory of God, they will sanctify us and keep us in the state of grace… If the intent of our good works is self-centered, it has no value in salvation.

That’s salvation by works. Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life; no one come to the Father but through Me.” And Paul says that we’re saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).

Quote:
John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

So lets see how this harmonizes with what I said. Do you see that you need to believe for your works to be sanctifying.

The passage is about dying in one’s sins if one doesn’t believe. It says nothing about works sanctification.

Of course the doctrines of divine grace are directly connected to the cross.

How so?

We all agree that without the cross, there is no hope of salvation.

How so?

And we are completely in agreement that you must begin with the cross.

Why?

Where we diverge is that you believe that salvation process actually ends there as well, through the simple belief in its saving power.

Where we diverge is the idea that salvation is a “process.” I agree with Paul that it’s a “gift of God, not as a result of works.” Paul and I don’t diverge. You, however, diverge from Paul and me. You’re the one departing.

You seem to see sanctification as a separate activity that might give you a “higher place in heaven,”

From what statements in my posts did you decipher such a notion?

but does not effect your actual ability to be saved.

It’s the saved who ARE sanctified being now set apart “in Christ” resurrected.

We on the otherhand, see that sanctification is required for entrance into heaven and therefore is coincident and integral with the ongoing justification process.

Translated: Salvation by works.

And sanctification requires man to choose to be sanctified through faith demonstrated by works.

It’s God who sanctifies (sets apart) the believer at the time of faith in Christ.1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”

1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”.

Acts 26:18 “…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’”

Remember, the theological virtues, of faith, hope and love and as St. paul preaches, the greatest of these is Love… If man does not practice these virtues, he will be condemned to die in his sins.

Salvation by works. Remember Christ’s words in Jn. 8:24 in respect to dying in one’s sins: “Unless you believe…”

 

[moondweller]

qui est ce:

And we’d agree if you left out the word “alone!”

It’s a deal. However, my dropping the word "alone’ doesn’t change the context one iota. Faith is still mentioned alone whether I say it or not: “For by grace you have been saved through faith….” “Therefore having been justified by faith…” You see, nothing changes.

However, you drop the word “initial” and you find yourself warming up by my campfire.

What is your definition of belief? Can I simply say, "I believe that Jesus died for our sins, " then go about my business of cheating on my taxes, abusing my kids, lying, not praying, and go to Heaven?

Belief is complete trust in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ for salvation (Acts 16:31 cf. Jn. 3:14-15). Belief in respect to salvation is trusting in the finished work of Someone else.

As to the latter part of your question, shall I who have died to sin (with Christ) still live in it? However, is one saved by not cheating on taxes? Not abusing kids? Not lying? Not praying? I know a lot of people who don’t do those things and are not saved. How can that be, Christine?

What is your definition of being saved?

I’ve already given my definition within my posts. What’s yours?

Do you believe ALL are saved, but only SOME will reach eternal salvation?

Not all are saved because not all believe - including many of the religious.

One HAS “eternal” salvation if he’s saved. If one’s salvation isn’t eternal then one is not saved. Do you know what “eternal life” means, Christine?

 

[ncgolf]

But if an educated Catholic turns away form works to faith in Christ alone for salvation, is that educated Catholic still Catholic? Would that be grounds to excommunicate him?

From the NewAdvent Encylcopedia …

Catholics, on the contrary, cannot be excommunicated unless for some personal, grievously offensive act. Here, therefore, it is necessary to state with precision the conditions under which this penalty is incurred. Just as exile presupposes a crime, excommunication presupposes a grievous external fault. Not only would it be wrong for a Christian to be punished without having committed a punishable act, but justice demands a proportion between the offence and the penalty; hence the most serious of spiritual chastisements, i.e. forfeiture of all the privileges common to Christians, is inconceivable unless for a grave fault. Moreover, in order to fall within the jurisdiction of the forum externum, which alone can inflict excommunication, this fault must be external. Internal failings, e.g. doubts entertained against the Catholic Faith, cannot incur excommunication.

Excommunication is a complex process … and I am not a Canon lawyer … this is what I have found so it seems ‘doubts’ are not punishable by excommunication so the person therefore is still Catholic.

What point are you trying to make?

 

[ncgolf]

Just as the Scriptures speak of “false brethren” (2 Cor. 11:26; Gal. 2:4) and false teachers [2 Pet. 2:1).

The false believers … that is personal … if you are one I can’t tell and if I am one then you can’t tell.

But I know a false teacher when I see one … anyone who teaches apart from the Apostolic Tradition … is a false teacher … teaches their own gospel not the Gospel.
[/QUOTE]

 

[guanophore]

Not true.  Read it again.

Past: The believer at the time of faith was completely delivered from his lost estate, cleansed, forgiven, justified, born of God, clothed in the merit of Christ, freed from all condemnation and safe for evermore, according to divine grace through Jesus Christ.

Present: Presently he’s being saved from the dominion of sin by being kept by “this grace in which he now stands” (Rom. 5:1-2) through the High Priestly work of the resurrected Christ; His intercessory work and Advocacy in heaven on the believer’s behalf (Heb. 7:25: 1 Jn. 2:1).

Future: In the future he’ll be saved from the presence of sin completely when by grace he’ll be presented in his glorified state, bodily (Phil. 3:20-21).

So how can you say there’s only a past? The true believer is saved, being saved and will be saved - all according to divine GRACE through faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Well, this is all very Catholic. This is what the Catholic Church has always believed and taught. That is why you can see it in your NT, which was written by Catholics. The only correction I would make is that Jesus Christ is never “alone”. He ordained that all this should occur in perfect unity with HIs Body, the Church. This is why Catholics believe there is no salvation outside the Church. The Church He built was given to use to guide and shepherd us through the process you describe above.

It’s true there’s nothing more that needs to be done FOR salvation (Christ did & does it all), but that’s hardly a “problem.” Much still matters. There’s still the preaching of gospel of Christ in one’s generation that more may be saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. There’s the personal, spiritual growth of the individual believer unto maturity (2 Pet. 3:18; 1 Pet. 1:1-11), that he might glorify God in his body (1 Cor. 6:20). There’s teaching the Word of God and ministering to the needs of other saints, to name only a few. There’s lots to be done.That’s like asking, once you’re born what’s the point of living?

Yes. Catholics do not separate the beginning from the middle,a nd the end. To us, they are all a seamless garment.

 

[guanophore]

And He did not spare them because of what? Their UNBELIEF (vs. 20).  This is the warning to Gentiledom.

He addresses them specifically. “God will not spare you either.” Faithlessness will get us cut off. This amounts to having one’s name blotted out of the book of life.

Scripture reveals three classes of humanity (since Pentecost): (1) Jews (unbelievers); (2) Gentiles (unbelievers); (3) the church of Christ (all true believers, individually called out from both Jews and Gentiles).

Now compare vss. 20-21 to Paul’s teaching in Romans 9:Rom 9:30-32 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,“Sound familiar?”

Yes, sadly. There are many Catholics who pursue the “working out” of their salvation without an adequate understanding of grace and faith. They fall into the error of 'working on" instead of workingout. Instead of God being at work within them to will and to do, they “try hard”, mistakely thinking this will save their souls. I just had a Catholic tell me the other day 'I try to be a good person". Such statements, devoid of any concept of casting oneself upon the mercy of God’s grace through faith, often give away the sad state of Catholic catechesis (or lack therof).

*Grafted unto Christ*" with a "*mark on his soul*" is an unbiblical term so I don't know what you're talking about.

I am surprised to hear you say this. What do you think the Gentiles are grafted into? Who is that vine?

Baptism marks the soul with an indelilble seal.

Nevertheless, if this can’t be undone, then you’re talking what? Eternal security? Or will there be those who are grafted unto Christ with marks on their souls in Hell?

Sadly, yes. Those who remain in Christ will have eternal security. Those who choose not to act in accordance with the seal of the HS will be lost.

What does "uncatechized" mean?

Poorly taught - babes in faith =ignorant. Catechesis means to “echo forth”

Taken in the sense of “the act of teaching” and “the knowledge imparted by teaching”, this term is synonymous with CATECHESIS and CATECHISM. Didaskalia, didache, in the Vulgate, doctrina, are often used in the New Testament, especially in the Pastoral Epistles. As we might expect, the Apostle insists upon “doctrine” as one of the most important duties of a bishop (1 Timothy 4:13, 16; 5:17; 2 Timothy 4:2, etc.).

The word katechesis means instruction by word of mouth, especially by questioning and answering. Though it may apply to any subject-matter, it is commonly used for instruction in the elements of religion, especially preparation for initiation into Christianity. The word and others of the same origin occur in St. Luke’s Gospel: “That thou mayest know the verity of those things in which thou hast been instructed” (katechethes, in quibus eruditus es – i, 4). In Acts 18:25, Apollo is described as “instructed [katechemenos, edoctus] in the way of the Lord”. St. Paul uses the word twice: “I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may instruct [katecheso, instruam] others also” (1 Corinthians 14:19); and “Let him that is instructed [ho katechoumenos, is qui catechizatur] in the word, communicate to him that instructeth [to katechounti, ei qui catechizat] him, in all good things” (Galatians 6:6). Hence the word, with its technical meaning of oral religious instruction, passed into ecclesiastical use, and is applied both to the act of instructing and the subject-matter of the instruction.

Catechesis is the process by which the Church passes on the faith.

2 Tim 1:12-14
13 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; 14 guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

It is faithfully echoing forth the “pattern of sound words”.

 

[guanophore]

So then you’re saying a very good Catholic should embrace the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone.

No, I am saying that the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. This is why you find this in Scripture. This is Catholic teaching. This is what the Church has aways believed and taught.

Faith, however, is never “alone”. It is always accompanied by hope, and love.

 

[guanophore]

We’d agree if you’d leave out your word "initial.

Yes, I believe this is true.

However, the Apostles taugtht that it is possible to begin in faith, and fall from it. This they recieved from Christ, who described seeds of faith that were sown, sprouted, then did not bear fruit.

Gal 5:1-5
5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Notice the Apostle refers to those who have been “set free” (completed action in the past). Sumitting again to the yoke of slavery will cause such free persons to be severed from grace, and fall from the faith.

Christ is no advantage to them (they cannot be saved, even though they were set free by His blood)

"Nothing! I know his prayers were heard and his alms were remembered before God, but neither of these contributed to his salvation. Nor does the text say or imply it.

Then you are not open to the text, moon.

Acts 10:1-4
0:1 At Caesare’a there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.” 4 And he stared at him in terror, and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.

He was a devout man who feared God. He gave alms and prayed. These, moon, are acts of faith. He was doing all that he knew to do within the limited revelation he had at the time. We are in agreement that God does not have regard for the good deeds of anyone who is not in faith. The fact that his alms were noticed by God is evidence that they were done in faith. Catholics call this prevenient grace or drawing grace. The grace that is poured out upon all that they may be saved. He responded to this grace, and more revelation was given to him.

This is what Peter said to Cornelius, his family and friends:Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name **everyone who believes** in Him receives forgiveness of sins."Prayers and alms could not forgive Cornelius' sins.  Because Cornelius *believed in Him*, Cornelius did not die in his sins; he was *saved* by grace through faith alone.

I agree that alms and prayers do not forgive sins. It is God’s mercy that forgives. however, Cornelius’ faith was never “alone”. He acted on the faith He had, being devout, gave alms, and prayed, along with his household. These are acts of faith, in response to grace. This is the duty of man - to respond to grace and seek Him for salvation.

 

[eichenb2]

I always thinks of Salvation as a process, not a one and done forensic justification. From this point of view, one cannot lose their salvation, because they don’t have it yet.

 

[ncgolf]

I personally believe sin is a non factor in respect to my salvation. My sins were judicially dealt with, once for all, 2000 years ago on the cross of Christ. I personally believe that what was laid on the Savior, once for all, cannot be laid back on me, the believer.

How do you gain eternal life … by keeping his commandments …Matthew 19:16-17.

If you do not keep them then some other object becomes greater than keeping the commandments thus sin.

So you are saying after professing faith … when you sin that does not affect your faith … your ability to look the Lord in the eye even with any tinge of regret for having sinned against him.

Faith is a result of grace which proceeds from the divine love (agape). So the grace of even having faith is out of love … that is why out of faith,hope and love … love is the greatest of these.

I see sinning directly affecting your relationship with Christ. Faith is not an abstract concept but a commitment to having a relationship with Christ …he loves and pours out grace for you … you faithfully keep his commandments … he loves and pours out even more grace for you … you reciprocate by faithfully keeping his commandments … so any sin you commit after this is insulting to Jesus … so how do you say this does not affect salvation?

This is why marriage is an excellent methaphor … Christ is committed to his bride the Church (us) we are bound like the bride to faithful to our spouse … and if we are not then we are spiritual adulturers (sinners).

I equate faith and loving Jesus (keeping his commandments) as two sides of the same coin so there are 4 types of people:

A) who have faith and keep commandments
B) who have faith and do not keep commandments
C) who have no faith and keep commandments
D) who have no faith and do not keep commandments.

The only way your statement

I personally believe sin is a non factor in respect to my salvation.

works is if you are A … you have faith and you do not sin. The only way sin does not matter is you do not commit it thus rendering it a non factor … sin is a break in that faith … in our fillial relationship with Christ.

B … those must the false believers … they say they have faith but they sin.
C … is this possible in your theology?
D … well they’re toast so to speak.

The only way to have the faith you describe is you cannot commit sin … any sin. Any sin after your profession of faith, in my mind, shows a mistrust … a lack of faith thus throwing yourself into the B category … you believe but cannot keep the commandments.

 

[guanophore]

Paul's warning is to all the Gentiles (Gentiledom) to whom God has bestowed the "*blessing of Abraham*" (*justification*) by grace through faith **alone**:[indent]Gal 3:14 "...in order that in Christ Jesus the *blessing of Abraham* might come to the **Gentiles**, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit **through faith**."

I know you have to keep adding this word to the Holy Scriptures in order to distinguish yourself from the Catholic faith from which the writers penned it. However, James and Hebrews makes it clear that Abraham’s faith was never alone. Abraham’s faith was accompanied by actions and obedience.

Heb 11:8-12

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and** he went out,** not knowing where he was to go. 9 By faith **he sojourned **in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For **he looked forward **to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself **received power **to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she **considered him **faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

Abraham even had to have relations with Sarah “by faith” (just as the Catholic Church has always taught about marital relations) in order to recieve the promise. All these words in bold above are acts - human decisions of the will and action - these accompany faith. Faith is never alone.

But if an educated Catholic turns away form works to faith in Christ alone for salvation, is that educated Catholic still Catholic? Would that be grounds to excommunicate him?

Such a thing will not happen. A properly catechized Catholic understands and lives the Truth that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of ourselves, lest we should boast. A properly catechized Catholic knows that faith is never alone, that it is always accompanied by hope, and love. It is active, obedient faith that is ready, willing, and able to fulfill the commandments of God. The reason CAtholics are excommunicated is that they choose not to live the life to which Christ has called us. They leave the Apostolic faith because they don’t understand it, and are led astray. I know, I used to be one of them.

 

[eichenb2]

Faith alone is true…if you mean faith that is WORKING through Charity.
Remember, Faith without works is dead faith.

 

[guanophore]

How does Jn. 8:24 “clearly” state that people go to Hell because of sin? Christ says, “…for unless you believe.” Compare that also with Jn. 3:14-18. Salvation is not a sin factor but a belief factor.

Well, it is both. Sin separates us from God. By faith, we can access the grace that overcomes the separation caused by sin.
If sin were not an impediment to salvation, there would be no need for accessing saving grace through faith, would there?

John writes:1 John 2:12 "I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake"Why for Christ’s name sake? Because He bore our sins and paid the ransom price with His blood, once for all.That passage states nothing about sin or sanctification.

No, but then again, we do not derive soteriology from a single verse of scripture, either. I think if you are willing to be honest, you will agree that you do not do this either.

We take into account all of the scripture, which elsewhere is clear that sin separates us from God.

You will die in your sins if you don’t believe, says Jesus.I think rather it is Satan’s goal to make men think the cross is inconsequential, and in respect to sin and salvation, insignificant.I personally believe sin is a non factor in respect to my salvation.

Of course you are free, set so by Christ, to believe whatever you like.If you wish to reject the Apostolic instruction about sin in favor of a Reformed (modern) opinion, this is your choice.

Catholics have received the Apostolic Teaching that freedom from sin lies in walking according to the Truth:

1 John 1:7-9
if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It is inseparably related to having fellowship with one another (unity with the Church.)

It seems to me that it is a great risk to assume that sin has no relationship with being cleansed by the blood of Christ. Of what would we need to be cleansed?

 My sins were *judicially* dealt with, once for all, 2000 years ago on the cross of Christ.  I personally believe that what was laid on the Savior, *once for all*, cannot be laid back on me, the believer.That's salvation by works.

Ahh. I can see your trouble here. I agree with you. However, the sins are not “laid back” passively. A person who continues in sin after receiving Christ spurns the son of God afresh.

Heb 10:26-29

26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

I know the Reformed say that this passage does not refer to Christians, but there is no other manner in which one can be sanctified except the blood of Christ. One cannot “spurn” the Son of God by profaning His blood unless such a one has already been made a partaker of His grace.

The Apostles called such persons “accursed children”

2 Peter 2:14-15
Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way they have gone astray;

Children, note, not outsiders, but those made members of the covenant. One cannot go astray from what one has never known.

 

[guanophore]

  Jesus said, "*I am the way and the truth and the life; no one come to the Father but through Me*."  And Paul says that we're saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, **not as a result of works** (Eph. 2:8-9).The passage is about dying in one's sins if one doesn't believe.

Scripture says this because this is Catholic teaching, moon.

It says nothing about works sanctification.

Why would it? Such a concept is foreign to the Catholic faith. It is a construct that you are insisting is Catholic, because you have imposed it as part of your misunderstanding of the Catholic faith.

 How so?

Because the blood of Christ, shed on the cross, is the only means whereby we can be cleansed of our sins, and thus be saved. Sin separates us from God.

Why?

Because it is one of the elements of the Catholic faith that was preserved by the Reformers.

 Where we diverge is the idea that salvation is a "*process*."  I agree with Paul that it's a "***gift of God, not as a result of works***."  Paul and I don't diverge. You, however, diverge from Paul and me.

No, Paul is Catholic. Your interpretation of Paul diverges from the Catholic faith Paul believed and taught.

You're the one departing.

I think it seems this way to most from the Reformed tradition because they never knew the original faith from which their forefathers diverged.

t's the saved who ARE sanctified being now set apart "*in Christ*" resurrected.Translated: Salvation by works.

I am glad that you realize it is you who are “translating”. You are imposing your own misunderstanding into the context.

It’s God who sanctifies (sets apart) the believer at the time of faith in Christ.1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”
1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”.

Acts 26:18 "…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’"Salvation by works. Remember Christ’s words in Jn. 8:24 in respect to dying in one’s sins: “Unless you believe…”

Yes! All these are reference to initial justification.

You seem to think that sanctification is a passive process.

The Apostles taught that it was active, and cooperative. Here is an example:

James 4:8-10
8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. 9 Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you.

These are things that humans can do - draw near, cleanse hands, purify hearts, mourn, weep, humble ourselves. We cannot do these actions with any effect apart from God’s grace, but they are for us to do, not God. God is at work in us, to will and to do. We must then will, and do.

2 Peter 1:4-11
5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren,** be the more zealous** to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is possible to forget that one has been cleansed from old sins. Why does the Apostle instruct us to “make every effort” if sanctifcation is a passive process?

If God does it all, why are we being instructed to “supplement”?

Col 1:24-25

24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,

Do we not agree that Christ’s sacrifice is all sufficient? How, then, are we to understand this principle that we can “make up what is lacking”? Is it not ourselves who are lacking? when we take on suffering in our flesh for the sake of His body, we join our sufferings with His. This action purifies us, and puts to death in us what is earthly.

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller, lets go through this in detail:

Originally Posted by paul c
You see, we are not so very far apart. You just lack a few of the elements of truth, the most fundamental being that you fail to recognize the role of man’s free will in salvation and that God willed man to come to him of man’s own accord, and not through the forced adherance to God’s will

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How do you figure? I’ve never said a man is forced to believe in Christ.

What you say is that once saved, you are always savd, even if you choose to turn away from God. This is what I am referring to as “forced adherance to God’s will”. In Catholicism, if someone chooses to turn away from God, God lets them follow their choice to be condemned.

No, clearly people go to hell because of Sin.

How does Jn. 8:24 “clearly” state that people go to Hell because of sin? Christ says, “…for unless you believe.” Compare that also with Jn. 3:14-18. Salvation is not a sin factor but a belief factor. John writes:
1 John 2:12 “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake”
Why for Christ’s name sake? Because He bore our sins and paid the ransom price with His blood, once for all.

You should read the whole book of John, not just selected verses.
This is what follows John 3:14-18:
John 3:19-21:

And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God

.
This clearly talks about sin (works are evil).
And what about this from John 5: 28-29:

Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

Doesn’t this say clarly that the criteria for life or condemnation is based on deeds?

Look again at Matthew 25: 31-46. You see the need for sanctification, that would not be necessary if sin wasn’t important.

That passage states nothing about sin or sanctification.

This is another reading that clearly says that people are given eternal life or eternal condemnation on the basis of what they did. Just ot make sure we are talking the same language, sin is failing to do God’s will and sanctification is becoming holy by doing God’s will/

As you know, sin is repellent to God, and we will die in our sins if we don’t repent.

You will die in your sins if you don’t believe, says Jesus.

True, you will die in your sins if you don’t believe, but also if you fail to demonstrate your faith through works…

It is Satan’s goal to make everyone think that sin is inconsequential.

I think rather it is Satan’s goal to make men think the cross is inconsequential, and in respect to sin and salvation, insignificant.

Sure, that is another one of his goals.

:

I suspect that deep down you don’t believe that sin is inconsequential and that you personally try to avoid sin. Isn’t this true?

I personally believe sin is a non factor in respect to my salvation. My sins were judicially dealt with, once for all, 2000 years ago on the cross of Christ. I personally believe that what was laid on the Savior, once for all, cannot be laid back on me, the believer.

You are very legalistic for someone who doesn’t think you can be saved by the law… You need to be actually holy to reside with God. Those that fail to recognize this will die in their sin. And Jesus dying on the cross can never be taken as a license to sin. You’ve read St. Paul.

 

[guanophore]

 It's a deal.  However, my dropping the word "*alone*' doesn't change the context one iota.  Faith is still mentioned alone whether I say it or not: "*For by grace you have been saved through faith..*."  "*Therefore having been justified by faith...*"  You see, nothing changes.

However, you drop the word “initial” and you find yourself warming up by my campfire.

It does to us, because we are reading the text through the Apostolic lenses.

However, is one saved by not cheating on taxes? Not abusing kids? Not lying? Not praying? How can that be ?

Because there are things that can take life that do not have the power to give it. God only can save us by His grace. However, sin, though it does not have the power to unite us to God, does have the power to separate us from Him.

There was an ice sculpting contest. Various artist entered and all were given a block of ice. All created marvellous works of art. They lasted about three weeks before the heat of the sun melted them. The heat had the power to destroy that which was created. The heat of the sun did not have the power to create the sculptures. So, too, does sin have the power to destroy God’s creation. Sin cannot give life.

How can this be? God created it that way, and He is sovereign.

I know a lot of people who don’t do those things and are not saved.

Actually, you have determined them unsaved according to your formula. However, God has taught us that He is the only one who decides who is saved, and who is not, and the Apostles taught us that we are not to make judgment upon this before the time. To do so is immature, and judgemental.

Not all are saved because not all believe - including many of the religious.

It is very Catholic of you to say this!

One HAS “eternal” salvation if he’s saved. If one’s salvation isn’t eternal then one is not saved. Do you know what “eternal life” means?

It is a state that will persist, even if one chooses to no longer participate in it. That is what it means to be disqualified.

 

[paul_c]

Moondweller to continue

This is not to diminish the importance of Faith. Intent is a key component of all our actions. If the intent of our good works is for the glory of God, they will sanctify us and keep us in the state of grace… If the intent of our good works is self-centered, it has no value in salvation.

That’s salvation by works. Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life; no one come to the Father but through Me.” And Paul says that we’re saved by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works (Eph. 2:8-9).

I’m not denying any of what you say. I am just pointing out that you stop half way in the message. You still need to demonstrate your faith through works. As we have discussed, you can call this salvation by works if it makes you feel better, but its not salvation by works ALONE.

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.

So lets see how this harmonizes with what I said. Do you see that you need to believe for your works to be sanctifying.

The passage is about dying in one’s sins if one doesn’t believe. It says nothing about works sanctification.

Sins are deviations from God’s will and are de-sanctifying. It harmonizes the need to believe and to AVOID sin…

Of course the doctrines of divine grace are directly connected to the cross.

How so?

We believe that sanctificying grace became available through baptism only after Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross opened up Heaven. Surely you recognize that we have said this two you daily for months.

We all agree that without the cross, there is no hope of salvation.

How so?

Come on Moondweller, same discussion as above. While we believe that simply SAYING you believe in Jesus’s sacrifice is insufficient for salvation and that you need to DEMONSTRATE that faith through works, we still believe that without the Cross there would be NO salvation because it provides sanctifying grace, without which no one can be saved.

And we are completely in agreement that you must begin with the cross.

Why?

Because Christ cross opened up heaven and made baptism for the reception of sanctifying grace possible. I’ve said it three times in a row now, Do you understand?

Where we diverge is that you believe that salvation process actually ends there as well, through the simple belief in its saving power.

Where we diverge is the idea that salvation is a “process.” I agree with Paul that it’s a “gift of God, not as a result of works.” Paul and I don’t diverge. You, however, diverge from Paul and me. You’re the one departing.

Please, St. Paul was Catholic. and he clearly talked about staying strong in the faith, working toward holiness.

You seem to see sanctification as a separate activity that might give you a “higher place in heaven,”

From what statements in my posts did you decipher such a notion?

From your statements thtat there is present and future activity beyond the initial statement of belief. What is the point of doing good works beyond that point?

but does not effect your actual ability to be saved

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It’s the saved who ARE sanctified being now set apart “in Christ” resurrected.

Okay. but if they fail to do so, what happens? In our theology, they are condemned. In yours, there is no effect.

We on the otherhand, see that sanctification is required for entrance into heaven and therefore is coincident and integral with the ongoing justification process.

Translated: Salvation by works.

Fine, but not works ALONE.

And sanctification requires man to choose to be sanctified through faith demonstrated by works.

It’s God who sanctifies (sets apart) the believer at the time of faith in Christ.
1 Cor 1:2 “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:”

1 Cor 6:11 “Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all”.

Acts 26:18 “…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’”

this doesn’t preclude the need to personally BE holy…

Remember, the theological virtues, of faith, hope and love and as St. paul preaches, the greatest of these is Love… If man does not practice these virtues, he will be condemned to die in his sins.

Salvation by works. Remember Christ’s words in Jn. 8:24 in respect to dying in one’s sins: “Unless you believe…”

Remember 1Corinitians 13. If you have faith enough to move mountains, but don’t have love, you are nothing…

 

[guanophore]

I always thinks of Salvation as a process, not a one and done forensic justification. From this point of view, one cannot lose their salvation, because they don’t have it yet.

This is what the Apostles’ taught was a “mature” attitude about salvation:

Phil 3:12-16

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.