Someone can lose their salvation?

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Your “caveat” is not Scriptural. It’s not taught in Scripture that righteousness is “infused,” but is gifted.
It is both. We believe that He infuses righteousness as a gift. That is probably grist for another thread, though.
Justification is the gifting of divine righteousness on the basis of faithRom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction (between Jew and Gentile); for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God being justified as a gift by His grace
Yes. Catholics believe that God does not just “label” the soul righteous, while we remain a dung heap covered in a white robe. We believe that he fully and actually cleanses us from all sins, and that we are made completly holy and pure in His sight. This is the wedding garment spoken of in Matthew. No one can be in the wedding feast without one! 😃
Clearly taught in the Gospel account of John.Except it’s the saved who are sanctified through faith in Christ alone.
I agree that those who are justified are those that are sanctified. However, it is clear tht it is not faith in Christ alone. Faith is never alone.
Code:
And I am inconsistent with Catholic teaching because I agree with Paul who writes:[indent]Eph 2:8 "*For by grace* you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; **not as a result of works**,"Catholic soteriology departed from this basic Biblical truth many years ago.  You're trying so hard to get back to it, guanophore.
I know it seems that way to you, because I don’t think you have ever been exposed to the Apostolic teaching (except the portion that you can glean from scripture. )

Catholic soteriology was never derived from the Bible. It comes from Christ Himself, and was committed whole and entire to the Church prior to a word of the NT ever being written. Our understandings of the message of salvation are different because your spiritual ancestors separated themselves from the Aposotlic Tradition. They had to reconstruct a concept of salvation that is gleaned from the scriptures. This is why it is not consistent with the apostolic message.

So you see, there is nothing to which to “return”. Accepting what you call a “biblical” rendering is for us a 'different gospel" and we would be anathema to accept it.🤷
 
True. But it’s “by GRACE through FAITH” that one “has been saved…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9).Actually I said it teaches it but won’t admit it. In fact your post verifies it. You perfectly well understand that in RC’ism grace through faith is not the means by which one is saved, but grace, faith and works. The problem is, the latter cancels out the former two. What you’re left with is works.
In your sotierology, Moondweller, does the fact that you need Faith, cancel out God’s Grace? It would have to if you follow the logic of your statement that works cancels our the other two in Catholic Sotierology. You can’t have it both ways.
 
You know, we have been through this before MoonD. You site these verses and have to add the word “alone” to them. Why do you do this? Catholics agree 100% with the verses you site. We just don’t agree with you fallible, man-made interpretations of them. You have often sited Eph 2:8-9, but as I and others have pointed out before in other threads, you have to keep reading. Eph. 2:10.
If you read this thread then you would know I covered this already here.

Also, I don’t “add” the word alone, but interpret it faith alone because faith is stated alone: “For by grace you have been saved through faithnot as a result of works…”
 
No, the Orthodox that I’ve talked to consider themselves Orthodox. The Catholic Church has 23 rites, some of them Eastern, which you might be misinterpreting as Catholic.

Then reconcile the above quote with this from James:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers and sending them out another way?

Pretty clear language, I would think. How do you reconcile this apparent contradiction?
The Bible never contradicts itself. You must always interpret Scripture in context. James two also has a context:James 2:14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James 2:18 "But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."Like Abraham and Rahab, faith is demonstrated by works, but it’s the faith through which God justifies (Gen. 15:6), not the demonstration of it. Like Paul, James can only cite Gen. 15:6, the ONLY time God justified Abraham and that through his faith alone.Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it (his faith/belief in Him) to him as righteousness."Compare this to:Rom 4:3-5 "For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."Notice the tiny word “it.” And IT was credited to him as righteousness (justification). Not Abraham’s demonstration of his faith which grew over the years as he exercised his faith in the Lord, but “it,” meaning his faith/belief in the Lord, i.e., what He said, His WORD. Therefore Paul goes on with:Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Now the context and meaning of Gen. 15:6 and Rom. 4:3-5 is EXTREMELY clear. The only way you can avoid it is categorically disbelieve it.
 
In your sotierology, Moondweller, does the fact that you need Faith, cancel out God’s Grace? It would have to if you follow the logic of your statement that works cancels our the other two in Catholic Sotierology. You can’t have it both ways.
I’ll let the Holy Spirit answer this for you through Paul, a teacher and preacher of this grace:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."If it is not on the basis of works, then it is ONLY on the basis of FAITH. That makes it faith alone, which is how it is always expressed in Scripture.Rom 9:30-32 "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at {that} law. Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,Read further and you’ll see the “stumbling stone” is Christ Himself. Jesus said:John 3:14-16 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (i.e., the cross); so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."You see how faith flows through the Scriptures in continuity?
 
I think this is most likely, most people have not, including a lot of Catholics!
Sadly this is true. Strange that many identify themselves as Catholics but do not follow the teachings of the Church. Most of the parents at my daughter’s Catholic high school do not attend mass regularly. Same for the parents of the children in our parish elementary school.

One can only hope this forum, EWTN, and all the Catholic evangelization organizations that have come into being in recent years will rectify this. Our own parish has come alive over the past five years. The Bible study classes are full, new ministries (grief, homebound, nursing, etc) have sprung up right and left. It’s a great age to be a Catholic!
 
I’ll let the Holy Spirit answer this for you through Paul, a teacher and preacher of this grace:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."If it is not on the basis of works, then it is ONLY on the basis of FAITH. That makes it faith alone, which is how it is always expressed in Scripture.
Remember that our initial Faith is a response to God’s grace of conversion being offered.

“We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).

In terms of initial justification, we should be in agreement, Moondweller. God’s grace alone is responsible.

It might be helpful to consider the Catholic position that in most areas where St. Paul talks of works, he means works of the law (circumcision and/or following the regulations). He was largely dealing with people who were either Jewish or who were instructed by others that conformance to Jewish rules was needed to pass through to Christianity.

At least to understand the Catholic position, go back through the trail of passages you cited, and reread them with “works of the Law of Moses” or the idea of the works being the rules of the Law of Moses and see how this applies.

Remember that Luther and the first reformers in the 1500’s (not the later ones, who drifted far away from even Luther’s position) drafted theology in at least some part as a reaction to the “works” they saw in indulgences and similar “practices” (not dogmas) of the Catholic Church. I believe this colored their perception when they then went back to justify (pun intended I guess) their theology from the Bible.
 
If you read this thread then you would know I covered this already here.

Also, I don’t “add” the word alone, but interpret it faith alone because faith is stated alone: “For by grace you have been saved through faithnot as a result of works…”
So by your admission, you agree that “faith alone” doesn’t exist in the bible. Good, me too. You say that you “interpret it faith alone because faith is stated alone”. Well MD, you have to ignore a whole lot of scripture to come away with that. I’m not going to go through this now because everyone, including myself, have given you many other quotes saying that forgiving others is necessary for salvation, baptism is necessary for salvation, laboring for the food that leads to eternal life, eating the body and blood of Christ is necessary for salvation, etc etc. And you simply ignore them with a wave of your hand. Tell me, is your interpretation infallible?
 
“We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8)."
This is a convoluted statement since according to the Scriptures it is taught that by/through faith God justifies. Hence, faith must precede grace. Paul’s logic, “For 'if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise grace is no longer grace,” has to do with grace vs. works. Not grace vs. faith.
In terms of initial justification, we should be in agreement, Moondweller.
In Divine revelation there’s no such thing as “initial” justification. The divine act of justification, through faith in Christ, is stated as a once for all accomplished FACT:Rom 3:22-24 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Rom. 3:26-27 “…so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.”

Rom 3:29-30 “Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”
God’s grace alone is responsible.
Yes, through/by FAITH.
It might be helpful to consider the Catholic position that in most areas where St. Paul talks of works, he means works of the law (circumcision and/or following the regulations).
But you need to consider that the ONLY works ever prescribed by God to man, after the fall in the Garden, was in covenant form, and that covenant was the conditional Law of Moses made with national Israel at Mt. Sinai. This covenant of works was not made with the Gentiles. Gentiles were never required to do the works of that Law. It was a covenant made with national Israel only.

But the Biblical doctrine of righteousness based on faith alone predates the Law of Moses by 430 years. That’s why as the basis for his argument of justification by/through faith alone, Paul goes back to Abraham, not Moses. Abraham was justified by God through faith alone over 400 years before God made the covenant of works with national Israel. IOW, justification by/through faith was revealed longed before the Law appeared (which included the Decalogue). Therefore Paul puts the Law in right perspective to “{the} faith” and divine justification which comes through it, when he writes:Gal 3:23-26 "But before faith came, we (Israel/Jews) were kept in custody under law (in covenant form), being shut up to the faith (definite article) which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all (both Jews and Gentiles) sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."And he writes:Gal 3:29 "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise."You see, Abraham, way back in in Gen. 15:6, believed God’s promise. FAITH is connected to PROMISE, not works. That’s why Paul wrote to the Roman church:Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited [to him} as righteousness,"Paul’s doctrinal argument against works is not restricted to works of the Law of Moses, but works, period. Because, like Abraham, men are justified “by faith” alone. The purpose of the Law, which came much later, was to tutor those under it (Israel) to Christ, that they may be justified “by faith” in the divine promise of eternal life through the Person and sacrificial work of the incarnate Son.

With Christ “the faith” (definite article) has now come. And men are to now believe in Christ alone for the promise of eternal life (Jn. 3:14-18). Paul writesRom 4:16 “For this reason {it is} by faith, in order that {it may be} in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law (Jews), but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all” (believing Jews and Gentiles).Abraham, who lived over 400 years before the covenant of Law, is called the father of all Jews and Gentiles who, like him, God credited it (their faith) to them as righteousness (Rom. 4:3, 5). Which is what “justification” means.

There is/was no other work than that which was prescribed in the Law of Moses. But the Law ended with Christ (Rom. 10:4). What remains, since the coming of Messiah (to Whom the Law pointed) is faith, alone - like our father Abraham.

Paul’s argument for justification by/through faith alone goes back to Abraham, not Moses.
 
So by your admission, you agree that “faith alone” doesn’t exist in the bible.
But faith, alone, does.
Tell me, is your interpretation infallible?
No. But divine revelation is. And what is divinely revealed concerning faith, grace, and salvation is clearly revealed in the Scriptures. Our responsibility is to believe it.
 
But faith, alone, does.
1 Corinthians
Chapter 13
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul speaks of love being the greatest … Paul says if you have “all faith” but do not love … you are nothing.

Why do you think faith is the greatest when Paul puts love as the greatest of all gifts?
 
But faith, alone, does.No. But divine revelation is. And what is divinely revealed concerning faith, grace, and salvation is clearly revealed in the Scriptures. Our responsibility is to believe it.
If this is true, why do Protestant Bibles not include all 73 book? Why do we disagree on Baptism, Grace, the Eucharist, OSAS. Why do Protestants disagree with each other? Luther taught the Divine Presence in the Eucharist. Orthodox, Lutherans, Anglicans all believe in the Real Presence. Baptists do not. Why? Reformed believe in Predestination. How do you know the Proto-evangelium of James or the Gospel Thomas is not divinely inspired? How was it determined which books to include in the Bible? Up through the first century, there was no standardized compilation.

If it’s so obvious, why did this “faith alone” theology only develop after Martin Luther inserted the word “allein” in his German translation? Why did Luther decide James was not inspired?

We know verse slinging is useless. All sides have been using Scripture to support their views. Your religious affiliation just states that you are born again. Do you believe in letting others preach to you?
 
But faith, alone, does.No. But divine revelation is. And what is divinely revealed concerning faith, grace, and salvation is clearly revealed in the Scriptures. Our responsibility is to believe it.
So by your admission, you are not infallible. Good, I agree with you. Since, you are not infallible, is it possible that your interpretation here could be wrong? If you could be wrong, could it be that the Catholic Church may be right?
 
1 Corinthians
Chapter 13
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 3 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul speaks of love being the greatest … Paul says if you have “all faith” but do not love … you are nothing.

Why do you think faith is the greatest when Paul puts love as the greatest of all gifts?
Nice job
 
In your sotierology, Moondweller, does the fact that you need Faith, cancel out God’s Grace? It would have to if you follow the logic of your statement that works cancels our the other two in Catholic Sotierology. You can’t have it both ways.
I’ll let the Holy Spirit answer this for you through Paul, a teacher and preacher of this grace:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."If it is not on the basis of works, then it is ONLY on the basis of FAITH. That makes it faith alone, which is how it is always expressed in Scripture
NO, follow your own logic. If you think works makes faith and grace irrelevent because they preceed it. Then according to your line of thinking, if Faith is required, then it supersedes grace.

And we know the only place that Faith alone is used in the bible is to deny it. Faith without works is dead.
 
I always thinks of Salvation as a process, not a one and done forensic justification. From this point of view, one cannot lose their salvation, because they don’t have it yet.
This is incorrect. One can have salvation even if the process is incomplete.

Therefore, it is more accurate to say, “I am saved, I am being saved and I hope to be saved.”
 
Hi, Saint2B,

What a refreshingly straight-forward post! 🙂
For your position to work, that those saved cannot fall, you have to use the words of the Bible in a very awkward way that contradicts how the word is defined. That doesn’t make sense.

{ skip…

All the pieces of it have to lock together for any of it to hold. This means that, when faced with contradictory evidence from Scripture, the meaning of those passages has to be changed to fit. This is not good. Further proof of this is that each Protestant group twists it a bit differently. For example, some say you cannot fall, others that those who fall were never believers. This lack of consistency arising from the same time period and belief show a weakness there.
God bless you for this excellent post.
 
Hi, Paul C.

What an interesting connection - I had honestly never thought of it this way before. 🙂
In your sotierology, Moondweller, does the fact that you need Faith, cancel out God’s Grace? It would have to if you follow the logic of your statement that works cancels our the other two in Catholic Sotierology. You can’t have it both ways.
Thanks for the post.

God bless
 
Hi, MoodD.,

I think ncgolf has an excellent question:
Paul speaks of love being the greatest … Paul says if you have “all faith” but do not love … you are nothing.

Why do you think faith is the greatest when Paul puts love as the greatest of all gifts?
I would be very interested in reading your response.

God bless
 
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