Someone can lose their salvation?

[paul_c]

According to the Scripture, there’s no such thing as “rewards in heaven for good behavior.” Rewards are not based on “good behavior.”

So then, what exactly are we being judged for? It isn’t for salvation. It isn’t to get better rewards. So what is the point of the judgment in your sotierology?

 

[SHW]

I have neither a sacrament, nor a priest interposed between me and my God. But hey, that’s me, I take the Biblical approach:Psalm 32:3-5 (by King David)

*3 When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long.

4 For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer.

5** I acknowledged my sin to you,*** and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord”; and you forgave the guilt of my sin.

The Lord, brethren, stands in need of nothing; and He desires nothing of any one, except that confession be made to Him. For, says the elect David, “I will confess unto the Lord; and that will please Him more than a young bullock that hath horns and hoofs. Let the poor see it, and be glad.”

—Clement, in his First Epistle to the CorinthiansSacerdotalism is so Old Covenant, you know, that ritual law Christ rendered obsolete.

Hi Howie,

Since you choose to live under the Old Covenant by confessing your sins directly to God as did David, per your example, perhaps you also should keep all the dietary laws?

The New Covenant has new laws and these have not passed away.

James 5:15-16 “And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”

John 20:23 “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Why did Jesus give the apostles the authority and power to forgive sins in His name? It is apparent that He deemed it necessary in order for Christians to become reconciled again, after sinning against God.

So, I will obey Jesus’ command and follow His commandments for His New Covenant. If I sin, then I will confess my sins to a successor of the Apostles and I will then be healed.

Originally Posted by SHW #926
The works of the law that Paul is speaking of is the Law of Moses.

Original Post by Howie01:That’s not what you said initially; however, it’s good to see that you’ve come around to a right understanding of that. God bless the child who opened your eyes to that truth.

Are you blind? I will show you my original quote from post #921:

Rom 3:20 “Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

This is in reference to the Law of Moses; not the eternal commandments of God.

Romans 9:31-32 “but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.”

The Israelites thought that they could be reconciled to God (atone for Adam’s sin) by works of the Law of Moses. They were incorrect. Only Jesus, by His perfect offering of His Self-Sacrifice on the Cross, to His Father, could reconcile them to God. (Romans 5)

John 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”

Acts 13:38-39 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.”

The eternal commandments of God and the works of the Law of Moses of the OT Covenant are two completely different things. The Commandments of God, Jesus said, are for all time. The Law of Moses with its myriad of rules and regulations for dietary practices, sacrifice and worship requirements, etc., was made obsolete by Jesus’ New Covenant. These works of the Law of Moses could never atone for Adam’s sin. Jesus, alone, could and did atone for Adam’s sin which had made us enemies of God and had barred us from eternal life. Jesus atoned for Adam’s sin and reconciles us to God through Baptism. Baptism applies the merits of Jesus’ atonement to our souls and this justifies us."

You still have not answered my question:
**
If a person, who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, commits adultery and does not repent before death, will he/she still be saved?**

Pax,
SHW

 

[qui_est_ce]

That’s a cop-out, Paul, admit you can’t support your remark and be done with it.

Alright, lets stop this dancing around. I told you that I was speaking about you and Moondweller when I made the original statement. I backed it up with a quote from this morning from Moondweller supporting what I said. If you can’t accept that, so be it. And for completeness, I don’t have a quote from Martin Luther or another of the original reformers, because I wasn’t really talking about them, per se. It doesn’t mean those quotes don’t exist, I just haven’t searched for them.

Obviously this topic has touched a nerve with you. I don’t wonder why because it creates a major dilemma for you. If you truly believe in Salvation by Faith alone, there can be no requirement for holiness on the part of man because that would require more than just Faith, it would require works. The corrolary is that you don’t require holiness for the saved. This is not very palatible either, since I think we all agree that the Saints should be holy. So for you personally, are the saints required to be holy, doing good works, or not? I suspect you won’t answer this part of the note, although I am sure you will have something to say about my original quote…

Paulc was using logic based on the premises of the known doctrines of Luther. His premises are sola scriptura and sola fides. Anyone can Google these.

An Open Letter on Translating
By Dr. Martin Luther, 1483-1546
tentmaker.org/tracts/LutherLetter.html

Since you abhor Paulc for supporting his arguments with snippets from the links he provides. I’ll provide a link only.

 

[qui_est_ce]

John Calvin
en.thinkexist.com/quotation/there_is_not_one_blade_of_grass-there_is_no_color/196584.html

 

[broski234]

I absolutely can support my statement. I told you in all honesty why I said that reformers can’t support a requirement for holiness for salvation and still maintain the concepts of OSAS or Sola Fide and I genuinely believe my statement is factual. This is not a game or debate club. We are here to discern the truths about our faith. Try thinking about what I said and why I said it instead of looking for an " I gotcha" moment.

Good point!

 

[broski234]

I wasn’t talking about you. It was in reference to broski234’s post on baptism. He’s a CPA:

"Cut and Paste Apologist.
​

Moondweller,

Do not act as if you have never been in a pinch for time and wanted to get an answer out to someone, and used another site as a quick answer. Please!!! We all have. I will not resort to “labeling” you by name although I’m sure everyone here could do so.​

 

[moondweller]

As you can see, Moondweller is advocating a sotierology that depends completely on faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ, turning away form works completely for salvation. He’s suggested this many times in the past.

Yes. A soteriology based on the Scriptures:Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Now more to the point, Can you refute my thesis that you can’t simultaneously espouse a “By Faith alone salvation” while also holding to a reponsibility for personal holiness . If you require holiness, you require works and then its no longer “Faith Alone”. We believe you need both faith and holiness to get into heaven. Do you?

Throughout the Epistles the saved are called “saints.” “Saints” literally means “holy ones.”

Holy means “sanctified,” which means “set apart” for God’s own purposes (the “saints” set apart for His eternal purposes).

Sanctification pertains only to the saved. There’s no such thing as a sanctified, unsaved person in respect to God’s eternal purposes. If God saved based on “holiness” then none would be saved. All men are in need of salvation because none are born holy - but sinners.

Holiness is an attribute, not a work.

The saved are:

(1) Positionally sanctified (set apart in Christ resurrected, Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2)

(2) Experientially sanctified (set themselves apart from the corruption that is in the world, while in the world; 1 Thess. 4:3-7; 2 Tim. 2:21)

(3) Ultimately sanctified (set apart from all vestiges of sin in their glorified bodies, in conformity to Christ’s; Phil. 3:20-21)

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Hi Howie,

Since you choose to live under the Old Covenant by confessing your sins directly to God as did David, per your example, perhaps you also should keep all the dietary laws?

My friend, sacramentalism and sacerdotalism is Old Covenant. Sacramentalism and sacerdotalism is the RCC and you.

SHW:

Why did Jesus give the apostles the authority and power to forgive sins in His name? It is apparent that He deemed it necessary in order for Christians to become reconciled again, after sinning against God.

Where is it stated by Christ that He gave the apostles the authority and power to forgive sins ”in order for Christians to become reconciled again, after sinning against God?” Methinks that’s your Tradition talking, and not the Lord.

SHW:

So, I will obey Jesus’ command and follow His commandments for His New Covenant.

Christ rendered sacramentalism and sacersdotalism obsolete. How is it following Christ to engage in a vestigial and obsolete form of worship? Are you Jewish?

(Let me help you. It’s because of the error of the early Church with respect to supercessionism and replacement theology. )

SHW:

If I sin, then I will confess my sins to a successor of the Apostles and I will then be healed.

Where is the appointment of successors to the apostles stated in Scripture? Again, that’s your Tradition speaking.

SHW:

Are you blind? I will show you my original quote from post #921:

Forgive my mistake of going from memory.

However, I’ve demonstrated, in fact, quite clearly and forcefully demonstrated, that the Law of Moses is not only the sacrificial and ritual side, but the moral side as well, and that it is the moral side of the law to which Paul refers when he says, ”by the works of the law will no flesh be justified in his sight” (Rom 3:20; cf 2:17-24; 7:7)

It’s indeed perilous for you, and pitiful that you prefer your Tradition over and above the written revelation of the Spirit.

SHW:

If a person, who has accepted Jesus as their personal Savior, commits adultery and does not repent before death, will he/she still be saved?

I did…Yesterday morning…Here…

 

[Howie01]

John Calvin
en.thinkexist.com/quotation/there_is_not_one_blade_of_grass-there_is_no_color/196584.html

Why don’t you take an extra minute and pull the specific quote to which you are referring.

Same with the Luther letter.

 

[guanophore]

According to the Scripture, there’s no such thing as “rewards in heaven for good behavior.” Rewards are not based on “good behavior.”

Ok, poor formulation of language on my part! What might be a better way? rewards are based on…doing the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them? To me this translates as “good behavior”.

Loving acts done out of reverence for Christ that bring rewards…you know, the crowns, etc.

moondweller:

It is stated in Scripture that the saved will receive rewards based on the value of their works (1 Cor. 3:10-15). The Scriptures don’t elaborate and I don’t speculate.

Do you imagine that there are valued works that are anything else BUT good behaviors?

 

[Howie01]

Yes. A soteriology based on the Scriptures:Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Throughout the Epistles the saved are called “saints.” “Saints” literally means “holy ones.”

Holy means “sanctified,” which means “set apart” for God’s own purposes (the “saints” set apart for His eternal purposes).

Sanctification pertains only to the saved. There’s no such thing as a sanctified, unsaved person in respect to God’s eternal purposes. If God saved based on “holiness” then none would be saved. All men are in need of salvation because none are born holy - but sinners.

Holiness is an attribute, not a work.

The saved are:

(1) Positionally sanctified (set apart in Christ resurrected, Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2)

(2) Experientially sanctified (set themselves apart from the corruption that is in the world, while in the world; 1 Thess. 4:3-7; 2 Tim. 2:21)

(3) Ultimately sanctified (set apart from all vestiges of sin in their glorified bodies, in conformity to Christ’s; Phil. 3:20-21)

It would be difficult for anyone to express the truth any clearer than you have throughout this entire thread.

My hat’s off to you. :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

Now more to the point, Can you refute my thesis that you can’t simultaneously espouse a “By Faith alone salvation” while also holding to a reponsibility for personal holiness . If you require holiness, you require works and then its no longer “Faith Alone”. We believe you need both faith and holiness to get into heaven. Do you?

Yes, of course this can be simultaneous. The children of the Reformers (most of them) have a great sense of responsibility for personal holiness. They just perceive that they have this responsibility BECAUSE they are “saved” and not in order to get that way.

For them, personal holiness is not really attainable, and that we are declared holy by Christ, which is how we get into heaven. Justification, or being placed in right relationship with God, is what “merits” heaven. We are able to attain heaven because of the shed blood of Jesus, and all we can do is trust in His sacrifice.

When they read “work out your own salvation” to them it means that they have already been saved at the time they were justified by faith, and they are now working out a condition that already exists for eternity.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,

Do not act as if you have never been in a pinch for time and wanted to get an answer out to someone, and used another site as a quick answer. Please!!! We all have.

Well, please don’t just paste up a whole list of Scripture passages cited by someone else and ask me to make commentary on that which you yourself provided none. I cannot respect such a request. I don’t think you honestly could, either.

I will not resort to “labeling” you by name although I’m sure everyone here could do so.

Paul c already has on this thread: A “Reformer.” But I’m not complaining about that. However, Howie’s right, I’m not hundreds of years old.

 

[Howie01]

Moondweller,

Do not act as if you have never been in a pinch for time and wanted to get an answer out to someone, and used another site as a quick answer. Please!!! We all have. I will not resort to “labeling” you by name although I’m sure everyone here could do so.

You should at least give credit to the author, eh? :yup:

 

[qui_est_ce]

Why don’t you take an extra minute and pull the specific quote to which you are referring.

Same with the Luther letter.

I’m an accountant, not a CPA

 

[Howie01]

I’m an accountant, not a CPA

Then I must assume the links you’ve provided don’t provide the attribution I requested.

You see, I’m not a mind-reader, and so, I have no idea where, within those myriad quotes, which touch on myriad subjects, lie those you might consider to answer my request.

(I hope as an accountant, that you’re more considerate to your clients/superiors in that respect, than you are to me ).

 

[qui_est_ce]

Then I must assume the links you’ve provided don’t provide the attribution I requested.

You see, I’m not a mind-reader, and so, I have no idea where, within those myriad quotes, which touch on myriad subjects, lie those you might consider to answer my request.

You don’t have to be a mind reader, just click on the links provided

John Calvin on the “elect”
*
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a** part of the human race**, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation”
John Calvin quotes*
tentmaker.org/tracts/LutherLetter.html
en.thinkexist.com/quotation/there_is_not_one_blade_of_grass-there_is_no_color/196584.html

Martin Luther on Sola Fides:
*
Returning to the issue at hand, if your Papist wishes to make a
great fuss **about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: “Dr.
Martin Luther will have it so **and he says that a papist and an ***
are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione
voluntas. (I will it, I command it; my will is reason enough) …
I am not the only one, nor the first, to say that
faith alone makes one righteous. *
tentmaker.org/tracts/LutherLetter.html
%between%

 

[ncgolf]

It would be difficult for anyone to express the truth any clearer than you have throughout this entire thread.

My hat’s off to you. :tiphat:

I think you should put your hat back on.
Moon brought this verse up yesterday specifically Col 1:22 and 1:23 … I will post all of Paul’s words in Chapter 1, so we all know the story.

1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2 to the holy ones and faithful brothers in Christ in Colossae: grace to you and peace from God our Father.
3 We always give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
4 for we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love that you have for all the holy ones
5 because of the hope reserved for you in heaven. Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel,
6 that has come to you. Just as in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing, so also among you, from the day you heard it and came to know the grace of God in truth,
7 as you learned it from Epaphras 3 our beloved fellow slave, who is a trustworthy minister of Christ on your behalf
8 and who also told us of your love in the Spirit.
9 Therefore, from the day we heard this, we do not cease praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding
10 to live in a manner worthy of the Lord, so as to be fully pleasing, in every good work bearing fruit and growing in the knowledge of God,
11 strengthened with every power, in accord with his glorious might, for all endurance and patience, with joy
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has made you fit to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in light.
13 He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16 For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
19 For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell,
20 and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.
21 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds
22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him,
23 provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,
25 of which I am a minister in accordance with God’s stewardship given to me to bring to completion for you the word of God,
26 the mystery hidden from ages and from generations past. But now it has been manifested to his holy ones,
27 to whom God chose to make known the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; it is Christ in you, the hope for glory.
28 It is he whom we proclaim, admonishing everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.
29 For this I labor and struggle, in accord with the exercise of his power working within me.

1 - Paul is speaking to the “holy ones and faithfu brothers” (believers) … he is speaking to the “holy ones” … saints … as Moon describes … these are faithful people.

2 - Verses 21 and 22 recognize the work done by Christ and now each of them is “in Christ” … reconciled at that moment.

3 - Why does Paul then say in verse 23 about these “holy ones” and “faithful brothers”. Christ wants to “present you holy, without blemish” …but wait … what condition is set by Paul “provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard”. What is the penalty for not persevering “in the faith” or “in Christ Jesus”?

Paul is not talking unbelievers in this passage … far from it … He talks specifically about those men being “holy ones” and “faithful brothers” in the Church at Colassae.

You must address the conditional requirement for “holy ones” having to “persevere in the faith”.

 

[Howie01]

You don’t have to be a mind reader, just click on the links provided

John Calvin on the “elect”
*
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a** part of the human race***, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation”
John Calvin quotes
tentmaker.org/tracts/LutherLetter.html
en.thinkexist.com/quotation/there_is_not_one_blade_of_grass-there_is_no_color/196584.html

Martin Luther on Sola Fides:
*
Returning to the issue at hand, if your Papist wishes to make a
great fuss **about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: “Dr.
Martin Luther will have it so ***and he says that a papist and an ***
are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione
voluntas. (I will it, I command it; my will is reason enough) …
I am not the only one, nor the first, to say that
faith alone makes one righteous.
tentmaker.org/tracts/LutherLetter.html
%between%Dear, here’s Paul C’s statement:

The reformers like to think that we have no responsiblity to work toward holiness.

 

[paul_c]

Yes. A soteriology based on the Scriptures:Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Throughout the Epistles the saved are called “saints.” “Saints” literally means “holy ones.”

Look, it’s clearly God’s word that we are saved by Grace through Faith and that this is done through Baptism. However, this is only the first installment:
Eph 1: 13-14 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory

The rest comes from your own sanctification. Remember when Jesus was asked what you need to do for eternal life? His answer was (matthew 19: 16-19
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

How could this be a clearer exchange?

Holy means “sanctified,” which means “set apart” for God’s own purposes (the “saints” set apart for His eternal purposes).

Sanctification pertains only to the saved. There’s no such thing as a sanctified, unsaved person in respect to God’s eternal purposes. If God saved based on “holiness” then none would be saved. All men are in need of salvation because none are born holy - but sinners.

Holiness is an attribute, not a work.

The saved are:

(1) Positionally sanctified (set apart in Christ resurrected, Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2)

(2) Experientially sanctified (set themselves apart from the corruption that is in the world, while in the world; 1 Thess. 4:3-7; 2 Tim. 2:21)

(3) Ultimately sanctified (set apart from all vestiges of sin in their glorified bodies, in conformity to Christ’s; Phil. 3:20-21)

I agree with you that it is the saved that get Sanctified, after all, if you are not doing good works for the glory of God, but only for your own glory, how could that be sanctifying? . But they are made holy with their works, not by simply acknowledging Christ. Remember the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 7: 21-23)?
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’