Someone explain again why Ecclesia Dei is ignored by friends and members of SSPX?

[Uxor]

**JUST A THOUGHT! **

After reviewing all the NUMEROUS threads on this forum…all the bitter complaints about abuse (no argument here!) why is it we cannot see what Satan is achieving by by creating division among us…those who LOVE the sacraments and Holy Mass!
If we were to take all this energy…and launch it against those who are abusing …against those Bishops allowing the abuse…if we were to become that squeaking wheel that gets the attention we would at least be on the right track!

For years, we Catholics have allowed the modernist to infiltrate positions of decision making within the Diocese
in America. Bishop Sheen warned us years ago that this was happening… in the 50’s folks! This is not some novo idea of Satan’s.

There are so many intelligent young catholics here. If we were to spend as much time being the squeaking wheel to our Diocese as we do chatting on this boobus tubus we could achieve wonders.

Mary you be the first. I did it for 30 years. I still do. The Last Letter I wrote to my Bishop I suggested instead trying to get legislation passed for citizenship of illegal aliens that they should try and get legislation pass for citizenship of the unborn.

 

[BobP123]

Yes, keyword being Catholic, defined in the Catechism:

833 The phrase “particular Church,” which is first of all the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession. These particular Churches “are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists.”

834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity." “For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord.”

SSPX is not recognized by Rome.

Point not taken too well.

Tough to know exactly who is in communion with and who is or isn’t recognized by Rome these days. You’re making the assumption that your bishop is in FULL communion just because he has been given the trusteeship of all church property within his diocese? Ok, but do you think he’s in full acceptance by God if he condescends to certain people in his diocese?

Look, we were talking about fulfilling one’s obligation per the 4th Commandment as well as worshipping the True God per the 1st Commandment.

Maybe it’s more important to be recognized by God and not by man and his politics. Think about it. It is God’s Church above Rome’s.

 

[BobP123]

**JUST A THOUGHT! **

After reviewing all the NUMEROUS threads on this forum…all the bitter complaints about abuse (no argument here!) why is it we cannot see what Satan is achieving by by creating division among us…those who LOVE the sacraments and Holy Mass!
If we were to take all this energy…and launch it against those who are abusing …against those Bishops allowing the abuse…if we were to become that squeaking wheel that gets the attention we would at least be on the right track!

For years, we Catholics have allowed the modernist to infiltrate positions of decision making within the Diocese
in America. Bishop Sheen warned us years ago that this was happening… in the 50’s folks! This is not some novo idea of Satan’s.

There are so many intelligent young catholics here. If we were to spend as much time being the squeaking wheel to our Diocese as we do chatting on this boobus tubus we could achieve wonders.

And you think your Diocese isn’t squeaking as much or even harder on all the boobi tubi and chat rooms?

 

[BobP123]

I’ve read most of the posts of this thread and cannot make heads or tails of it.

Confucius Say
Many arguments have two sides, but no end.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

It is God’s Church above Rome’s.

One in the same, my friend! You don’t like the politics, blame God for ever giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom.

God gave authority to JPII when the Holy Spirit moved the council to elect him. That means that when JPII said to Lefabvre “If you ordain priests, you’re excommunicated” and Lefabvre ordained priests, then Lefabvre was excommunicated and no longer in union with Rome.

This has nothing to do with who’s a holier bishop than who. Lefabvre was excommunicated and the SSPX church was declared illicit. Why bother taking chances that you’re right and the Pope and Vatican are all wrong?

 

[Ham1]

One in the same, my friend! You don’t like the politics, blame God for ever giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom.

God gave authority to JPII when the Holy Spirit moved the council to elect him. That means that when JPII said to Lefabvre “If you ordain priests, you’re excommunicated” and Lefabvre ordained priests, then Lefabvre was excommunicated and no longer in union with Rome.

This has nothing to do with who’s a holier bishop than who. Lefabvre was excommunicated and the SSPX church was declared illicit. Why bother taking chances that you’re right and the Pope and Vatican are all wrong?

Sadly, because for many people it is not about what the Church desires from them, but rather what they want from the Church.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Point not taken too well.

Tough to know exactly who is in communion with and who is or isn’t recognized by Rome these days. You’re making the assumption that your bishop is in FULL communion just because he has been given the trusteeship of all church property within his diocese? Ok, but do you think he’s in full acceptance by God if he condescends to certain people in his diocese?

Look, we were talking about fulfilling one’s obligation per the 4th Commandment as well as worshipping the True God per the 1st Commandment.

Maybe it’s more important to be recognized by God and not by man and his politics. Think about it. It is God’s Church above Rome’s.

OBJECTIVELY, we do know who is in FULL communion and who isn’t (subjectively, you have an excellent argument, but we never KNOW who is in or out of the heart of the Church). It’s determined by the Holy See and, while it is God’s Church, it’s Rome who governs that Church (“Vicar of Christ” and “Vicregent of Our Lord Jesus Christ” and all of that).

 

[paramedicgirl]

Sadly, because for many people it is not about what the Church desires from them, but rather what they want from the Church.

Yes, when someone loves and desires the timeless and beautiful traditions of the Church, with all its mystery, and what they get is an empty, uninspiring Novus Ordo Mass, that is full of innovations and liturgical abuses, it can chase them right into the arms of the SSPX. More availability of the Traditional Mass would prevent this, but it’s not happening. Not on a big enough scale, anyway.

 

[Ham1]

Yes, when someone loves and desires the timeless and beautiful traditions of the Church, with all its mystery, and what they get is an empty, uninspiring Novus Ordo Mass, that is full of innovations and liturgical abuses, it can chase them right into the arms of the SSPX. More availability of the Traditional Mass would prevent this, but it’s not happening. Not on a big enough scale, anyway.

I totally agree. We need more devout NO Masses and more indult Masses.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I totally agree. We need more devout NO Masses and more indult Masses.

Here is a post from Carolina Cannonball’s blog about this topic. Be sure to scroll down to the photos to get a clear picture of what she means.

 

[TNT]

                 Originally Posted by **Ham1**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1975771#post1975771)                 
             *Sadly, because for many people it is not about what the Church desires from them, but **rather what they want from the Church.***

RE:
**“rather what they want from the Church.”

**It’s what any member is ENTITLED TO that we want. We are entitled to proper liturgy, proper sacraments, and proper instruction.

We are not entitled to man made “stones” but Divine food, always, not some times in some places in some one’s capricious mood.

Their responsibility is from:
Matthew 28
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

 

[mark_a]

One in the same, my friend! You don’t like the politics, blame God for ever giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom.

God gave authority to JPII when the Holy Spirit moved the council to elect him. That means that when JPII said to Lefabvre “If you ordain priests, you’re excommunicated” and Lefabvre ordained priests, then Lefabvre was excommunicated and no longer in union with Rome.

This has nothing to do with who’s a holier bishop than who. Lefabvre was excommunicated and the SSPX church was declared illicit. Why bother taking chances that you’re right and the Pope and Vatican are all wrong?

Finally, a post I that makes some sense.

 

[Ham1]

RE:
**“rather what they want from the Church.”

**It’s what any member is ENTITLED TO that we want. We are entitled to proper liturgy, proper sacraments, and proper instruction.

We are not entitled to man made “stones” but Divine food, always, not some times in some places in some one’s capricious mood.

And this is made available to us by the Church all over the world. True, it is not everywhere it should be and that is sad, but it is there nonetheless. What we cannot do, is because of our own personal desires for the old Mass, forsake the teachings of the Church and attend Masses held by priests who are suspended and, as such, not united with Rome.

 

[Mary_Henley]

Finally, a post I that makes some sense.

DITTO!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

RE:
**“rather what they want from the Church.”

**It’s what any member is ENTITLED TO that we want. We are entitled to proper liturgy, proper sacraments, and proper instruction.

But the same Msgr. Perle and the same commission that Paramedicgirl quotes clearly state in another document that no one has a right to the Tridentine Mass. They state that the Holy Father asked for a more generous application of the Indult, but that currently (and currently means NOW), bishops cannot be forced to allow it, either against their own predjudice (and I suspect that’s the case more often than not) or their own prudential judgment (manpower, resources, etc.).

The NO Mass, properly celebrated, is what we’re entitled to, nothing more.

Incidentally, TNT, Ernest Gallo died either last night or this morning. I was certain you’d want to know.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Yes, when someone loves and desires the timeless and beautiful traditions of the Church, with all its mystery, and what they get is an empty, uninspiring Novus Ordo Mass, that is full of innovations and liturgical abuses, it can chase them right into the arms of the SSPX. More availability of the Traditional Mass would prevent this, but it’s not happening. Not on a big enough scale, anyway.

What about what God wants?

Matt12:1-7 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” He answered, "Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

People didn’t like the way Jesus was disregarding tradition either. But God changes the rules around. MORALS NEVER CHANGE. But the rules do depending on the times. That’s why there’s a pope to change things around whenever he feels moved to do so. The first Mass was not celebrated exactly like it was in the 1940’s. We didn’t always have 3 groups of mysteries of the rosary (and now 4! :clapping: ) It’s disappointing if you liked the old ways or dislike the new ways, but no excuse to let it drive you away from what you know is right to someplace you know has been deemed wrong.

 

[Joseph_Mary]

As a person that has been struggling with the decision to drive 45 minutes to attend an indult TLM Mass, vs. 15 minutes for a SSPX Mass, I have this to say:

I’ll probably do neither, because I have the fortune of belonging to a wonderful parish, with a conservative N.O. Mass, and the “strangest” of characters is an ex-nun who was a product of the 60’s and makes fun of the “innovations” that occurred in a lot of post-Vatican II parishes, and is thankful we don’t have them in our own parish - also, our parish church was built right before Vatican II, so our architecture isn’t disgusting either. The Crucifix behind our alter is beautiful, it is beautiful in portraying God’s sacrifice of Himself on that Cross on Calvary - I tell you, the Crucified Christ up there is so horrific it is beautiful!

If you have to suffer through a heretical Mass, I don’t know what to tell you…either move out of that diocese, change the liturgy, or, at worst, attend a SSPX Mass - I won’t look down upon you, and neither will most other concerned Catholics in your diocese.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

either move out of that diocese, change the liturgy, or, at worst, attend a SSPX Mass - I won’t look down upon you, and neither will most other concerned Catholics in your diocese.

It’s not about looking down on people. It’s about sticking to the guidelines that have been set out for our Mother Church. I don’t pick who I like based on what church they go to or even if they go to church at all. But it makes me sad when I hear good Catholics are going to invalid Masses.

Maybe God puts you (generic ‘you’) at a church that is sub-par so that you can help change it. At the church I’m closest to, no one dresses up. People wear shorts, ripped jeans, low-cut shirts and I stick out like a sore thumb wearing a dress. People notice and sometimes they talk about dressing better the next Sunday. We also don’t have adoratation, so I’m working to convince the priest that it’ll improve things. Of course I miss my old church where people showed more respect and where there was more than just daily Mass, but maybe God brought me here not to help me grow so much in my faith but to use me to help others grow in their faith.

So if your church needs help, don’t abandon it! It may take time and be a struggle, but think of the good you can do!

 

[Uxor]

What about what God wants?

Matt12:1-7 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.” He answered, "Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven’t you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

People didn’t like the way Jesus was disregarding tradition either. But God changes the rules around. MORALS NEVER CHANGE. But the rules do depending on the times. That’s why there’s a pope to change things around whenever he feels moved to do so. The first Mass was not celebrated exactly like it was in the 1940’s. We didn’t always have 3 groups of mysteries of the rosary (and now 4! :clapping: ) It’s disappointing if you liked the old ways or dislike the new ways, but no excuse to let it drive you away from what you know is right to someplace you know has been deemed wrong.

Jesus was not disregarding tradition. It has been awhile since I’ve read about this, it is Catholic writing, but I’ll have to try and remember and provide a source. Jesus, Mary, Joseph were good practicing Jews. Not too familiar with the Jewish religion, but what I recall is that they followed the Torah and the Pharisees followed the Talmud which wasn’t in existence all that long. God does not change rules around…evidence for example the Ten Commandments. In the Old Testament, God gave instructions how His Temple was to be contructed and told how He was to be worshipped. The Traditional Mass is a replica of that. The Society of St. Peter which says the Traditional Mass is of the Pontificial Right started by Pope John Paul. There are other legal societys as well. So it is not wrong for anyone to join their churches.
http://www.fssp.org/objet/Audience.jpg

Pope Benedict’s Book “The Spirit of the Liturgy” also goes into what I’m saying from what I’m hearing by others that have read it.

You say what does God want. The Mass is how God wants to be worship. The Norvus Ordo Mass is not being celebrated according to Vatican II as Pope John Paul stated in his address in 1998 to all the bishops of the US that went to Rome for their Ad Limina. You can look on the net for the Ad Limina Address to the Bishops of the Church, Oct 9, 1998 if you would like to read what he had to say. What is happening with the Norvus Ordo Mass is alot of changes are being added that were not incorporated in Vatican II, Vatican II is being badly misinterrupated which is leading to abuses and basically saying arrogantly to God is, we don’t want to worship you as You want us to, we are going to worship you the way we want to. Instead of drawing up to God and worshipping Him as he instructed as far back as the Old Testament we are bringing Him down to our level and into our culture. Reminds me of the golden calf. There is this misguided theology now, the Mass is a meal instead of what it actually is “The Sacrifice”. We worship a meal? Pope John Paul was also unhappy how Vatican II was misinterpreted as he stated in some of his encylicals. When Christ was speaking to the Pharisees he was speaking against “their tradition of men”. He quoted them the tradition, the laws of Moses that they were not following.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Jesus was not disregarding tradition. It has been awhile since I’ve read about this, it is Catholic writing, but I’ll have to try and remember and provide a source. Jesus, Mary, Joseph were good practicing Jews. Not too familiar with the Jewish religion, but what I recall is that they followed the Torah and the Pharisees followed the Talmud which wasn’t in existence all that long. God does not change rules around…evidence for example the Ten Commandments. In the Old Testament, God gave instructions how His Temple was to be contructed and told how He was to be worshipped. The Traditional Mass is a replica of that. The Society of St. Peter which says the Traditional Mass is of the Pontificial Right started by Pope John Paul. There are other legal societys as well. So it is not wrong for anyone to join their churches.
http://www.fssp.org/objet/Audience.jpg

Pope Benedict’s Book “The Spirit of the Liturgy” also goes into what I’m saying from what I’m hearing by others that have read it.

You say what does God want. The Mass is how God wants to be worship. The Norvus Ordo Mass is not being celebrated according to Vatican II as Pope John Paul stated in his address in 1998 to all the bishops of the US that went to Rome for their Ad Limina. You can look on the net for the Ad Limina Address to the Bishops of the Church, Oct 9, 1998 if you would like to read what he had to say. What is happening with the Norvus Ordo Mass is alot of changes are being added that were not incorporated in Vatican II, Vatican II is being badly misinterrupated which is leading to abuses and basically saying arrogantly to God is, we don’t want to worship you as You want us to, we are going to worship you the way we want to. Instead of drawing up to God and worshipping Him as he instructed as far back as the Old Testament we are bringing Him down to our level and into our culture. Reminds me of the golden calf. There is this misguided theology now, the Mass is a meal instead of what it actually is “The Sacrifice”. We worship a meal? Pope John Paul was also unhappy how Vatican II was misinterpreted as he stated in some of his encylicals. When Christ was speaking to the Pharisees he was speaking against “their tradition of men”. He quoted them the tradition, the laws of Moses that they were not following.

It’s certainly true that the NO Mass is abused, but what many “traditionalists” regard as an abuse isn’t actually an abuse. For example, many cite VII about the retention of Latin, failing to realize that a pope may go beyond a council. In this case, Pope Paul VI permitted bishops’ conferences in their respective countries to determine to what degree the vernacular would be used. The conferences proposals would then be submitted to the Holy See, along with proposed translations, for approval. So the all-vernacular Mass, hardly called for by VII, has the approval of the Holy See. It cannot, therefore, be called an abuse. It’s the same with altar girls (which I certainly don’t think is a good idea),EMHCs, and communion in the hand (something permitted in the Holy See itself). Yet, “traditionalists” call these abuses of the Mass, things disallowed or reprobated. Not so.