Something Must Be Done About Those High Paid Teachers

[Texas_Roofer]

Actually 1ke to answer you in the most accurate possible sense, which means totally dropping all the thread related issues

The “instruction” line in the referenced budget is $ 663, 933, 334
The total actual budget is 1,858,572,459 so that is 35.706088%

Sorry for attempt to reduce the details for others

source dallasisd.org/about/budget.htm

 

[1ke]

I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. The concept of supply and demand is applicable in this situation. Very few people want to teach in the DISD. If you would like to have good benefits and make $60-70k/yr (or even $40k), I’m sure the DISD can find a classroom for you.

And yet, Richardson ISD-- a very desirable school district-- offers just $800 less to starting teachers. Their current salary schedule begins at $41,200. This is an extremely good salary in an extremely desirable school district.

Supply and demand play a role in all markets.

Does your workplace have metal detectors at the doors to keep children from bringing guns in?

Yes, as a matter of fact, the building my corporate office resides in **DOES **have a metal detector.

It also has a strict badge identification system. The building houses multiple tenants, one of whom is owned by a Saudi Arabian company.

Guns are not limited to schools, and violence in the workplace is not uncommon at all. And, guns in school are not limited to big city schools. Remember the Wisconsin principal shot last fall? That was 19 miles from my house in Po-Dunk, small town, 99% white kids.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi,

I chose teaching as a second career choice and I left teaching after 8 years. I dont plan on going back either. I couldnt stand the admin. I wasnt in it for the money. I knew I would never be rich being a teacher.

I taught 8th grade pull out special ed. classes. Which means I taught the classes. They had me teaching Earth science, lang. arts and pre-algebra. I feel like I went through 8th grade all over again. The pay was absolutely not worth the stress.

I think when people complain about teachers and how easy they have it, they should go teach for 1 week(elementary(make it easy for them)) and then they will NEVER complain again If you want to really break someone down, have them teach 8th grade for 1 day:bigyikes: :bigyikes: They may actually bow down and kiss the ground teachers walk on. LOL :hypno:

 

[1ke]

Actually 1ke to answer you in the most accurate possible sense, which means totally dropping all the thread related issues

The “instruction” line in the referenced budget is $ 663, 933, 334
The total actual budget is 1,858,572,459 so that is 35.706088%

Sorry for attempt to reduce the details for others

source dallasisd.org/about/budget.htm

Nope. You’ve included the Capital Budget, which as I said is not operating revenue. Capital budget is bond revenue and can only be spent for that purpose.

The Operating Fund, Fund 199, is $1,082,727,546. Salaries are 61% of the Operating Fund.

Seriously, study school finance law. Funds can only be spent in certain ways by law, depending upon what those funds are and where they came from.

Page 5 of the budget has an excellent pie chart breaking down the percent of revenue by category. Instruction = 64%

 

[1ke]

I think when people complain about teachers and how easy they have it, they should go teach for 1 week(elementary(make it easy for them)) and then they will NEVER complain again If you want to really break someone down, have them teach 8th grade for 1 day:bigyikes: :bigyikes: They may actually bow down and kiss the ground teachers walk on. LOL :hypno:

I disagree that teaching is “harder” than working in industry.

I have been a teacher, and I have been in industry. Each has it’s own stresses, responsibilities, and workload.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Nope. You’ve included the Capital Budget, which as I said is not operating revenue. Capital budget is bond revenue and can only be spent for that purpose.

The Operating Fund, Fund 199, is $1,082,727,546. Salaries are 61% of the Operating Fund.

Seriously, study school finance law. Funds can only be spent in certain ways by law, depending upon what those funds are and where they came from.

Page 5 of the budget has an excellent pie chart breaking down the percent of revenue by category. Instruction = 64%

You used the word “budget” why? It costs 1.8 billion to operate the school for one year. The school does not generate any revenue it is funded by taxes. Switching the word budget to revenue, assigning other assumptions to me, is there no end. If I were not paying the difference it would not be my business.

 

[1ke]

You used the word “budget” why? It costs 1.8 billion to operate the school for one year. The school does not generate any revenue it is funded by taxes.

Capital Budget is a financial term. If you are not familiar with it I apologize.

Funds are specific general ledger accounts in a school. Funds are regulated by state and federal law.

The various Funds can only be used for specific things-- so you cannot take money out of one fund and use it for teacher salaries no matter how much you want to. It’s the law. These restricted Funds are **not **part of the Operating Budget-- the Fund from which teacher salaries **CAN **be paid.

The 1.8 Billion you cite includes the Capital Budget. This is a capital improvement fund created by multi-year bond issues. Bonds are not taxes although they are repaid via tax revenues. And, bond revenues **cannot **be spent on operating costs.

If you seriously think that DISD spends only 35% of it’s operating revenue on teacher salaries, then I invite you to take your calculations to the next Citizen’s Forum of the DISD Board Meeting and ask them about it.

 

[1ke]

TexasRoofer,

Let me give you a basic example of what I’m talking about. We’ll use some simple, fictional numbers for the sake of the example.

Let’s say you make $20,000 a year. And, let’s say you spend $10,000 a year on housing. So, you spend 50% of your operating budget on housing. You spend every penny of the $20,000 and there’s no money left over.

Now, let’s say that there is a deer problem in your area and the government is giving away $10,000 grants to put deer fencing around yards. You can get the money simply by applying, but you have to spend it on deer fencing and deer fencing only.

So, are you now spending only 33% of your operating budget on housing? NO. You’re still spending 50% of your operating budget on housing.

Your spending 100% of the deer fence budget on deer fencing. If you didn’t get deer fence money from the federal government, you’d go without a deer fence and let the creatures eat your garden. But, since your neighbors will take the deer fence money if you don’t want it… you sign up for the money.

Your operating budget has not changed, because you can’t take one penny of the deer fence money and spend it on your mortgage. You have to give all your receipts to the government and prove you spent the grant on deer fence.

That is a school Fund budget.

 

[drafdog]

Re non-working summer months:
Many jurisdictions are now requiring that professional competence be maintained by continuing education. To this end the local colleges and universities and school boards provide summer continuing education programs for teachers. Since the teachers’ contracts are tied to maintenance of professional status, these programs are well attended.
Summers off? Don’t you believe it!
Re High paid teachers:
Many Catholic school boards in the US are guilty of not paying a living wage to their teachers. I saw some of the postings above which compared private school wages to public school wages. Until the Catholic schools in the US step up to the plate and remunerate comparably in terms of salary and fringe benefits they’re doing it wrong.

Matthew

 

[1ke]

Re non-working summer months:
Many jurisdictions are now requiring that professional competence be maintained by continuing education. To this end the local colleges and universities and school boards provide summer continuing education programs for teachers. Since the teachers’ contracts are tied to maintenance of professional status, these programs are well attended.
Summers off? Don’t you believe it!

This is comparable to many professions that require continuing education through Professional Development Units (PDUs) or other types of professional certifications-- they are also called CEUs, PDHs, CMPs, etc. Accountants must maintain professional development hours, as must a host of professional positions and those with certifications.

This must be done on their own time, nights and weekends, as well. Teachers are no different than other professional positions in that regard.

Re High paid teachers:
Many Catholic school boards in the US are guilty of not paying a living wage to their teachers. I saw some of the postings above which compared private school wages to public school wages.

Unfortunately, the US Government continues to deny voucher funding for private schools. And, unfortunately, schools are expensive to run. I hope the Church can some day overcome this challenge.

Until the Catholic schools in the US step up to the plate and remunerate comparably in terms of salary and fringe benefits they’re doing it wrong.

Since you are so quick to judge them “doing it wrong” I suppose you have come up with a plan you can share for how to do it right?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Actually if you return to the original post using the DISD numbers you could see that 1.8 billion divided by 161,000 student times 6 hours of instruction for 180 days equal ~$10.35 per student per hour.

If you want to break this down of the $10.35, roughly $4.14 goes to capital assets, roughly $2.39 goes to support costs, and $3.82 goes to instruction

 

[1ke]

Actually if you return to the original post using the DISD numbers you could see that 1.8 billion divided by 161,000 student times 6 hours of instruction for 180 days equal ~$10.35 per student per hour.

If you want to break this down of the $10.35, roughly $4.14 goes to capital assets, roughly $2.39 goes to support costs, and $3.82 goes to instruction

It does not work that way.

For one thing, while students have 183 or so instructional days, many of these budget items you are trying to get into a “per student hour” scenario are not based on student hours. Building a new school, for example, is not based on student instruction hours.

You keep trying to imply things with your math computations that simply are not true.

Look TX, we are at the end of this discussion as far as I am concerned. I really encourage you to go to your local school board meetings and learn more about how school finance actually works and ask questions. Present your calculations that you’ve done here, and ask school board members in DISD about them.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

It’s only fair that they should get paid only when they work. I know that a lot of teachers take summer jobs to earn extra money when they are not working for their school. Others take part-time jobs during the school year. I remember going Christmas shopping with my parents when I was in elementary school and seeing my teacher working at the store.

Teachers work extra jobs a) so we can live and b) so we can take the classes we must take and buy the materials we need (that aren’t covered by our classroom budget) in order to keep and do our jobs effectively.

If you want to fix the education crisis in this country, pay teachers a 6-figure salary. How many potentially fantastic teachers have been lost to industry and business and other fields simply because of the difference in pay?

It’s a sad commentary on our nation that teachers make what we do, considering what’s at stake when we go to work.

But I’m not complaining…

 

[1ke]

Teachers work extra jobs a) so we can live

The data does not support the theory that teachers are underpaid and/or not paid a wage they can live on. This is a myth perpetuated in our society, and unsupported by the facts.

You, personally, may be in a low paying school district. However, the data shows that teachers earned an average of $34.06/hour in 2005, 36% more than the average white collar worker.

If you are not paid highly enough, you are free to seek out a school district or occupation that pays more.

Here is a link to a report showing 66 major metropolitan areas and the corresponding teacher pay. This is a very well researched white paper, including detailed tables and sources. The primary source is the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

In addition, the teacher wages are exclusive of the retirement and benefits packages-- which are typically extremely generous.

and b) so we can take the classes we must take

As I have previously stated, teachers are not unique in having to maintain professional licenses and certifications. There are many professions requiring professional development credit hours-- and these professionals also must pay for their development, do it on their own time, and do so with less time off than teachers.

and buy the materials we need (that aren’t covered by our classroom budget) in order to keep and do our jobs effectively.

You may *choose *to buy materials, but you are not required to. I never bought anything with my own money. I used the district budget, and if there was no money then I didn’t need it that badly.

If you want to fix the education crisis in this country, pay teachers a 6-figure salary.

Why should teachers be paid “6 figures”? Why do they merit such high pay? On what do you base performance? Most of America is not earning “6 figures”. And, giving teachers piles of money will NOT fix the “education crisis”.

Currently teacher salary is not linked to student achievement at all. Again, the white paper I linked to is quite instructive in this area.

Teachers are almost exclusively paid on a seniority system, not on a merit system. Those of us in industry are paid on an outcome basis. I have duties, responsibilities, and projects. And, I am paid according to how well I do my job-- not how long I’ve been occupying my chair.

The way in which teachers are paid fosters mediocracy, not excellence in teaching.

How many potentially fantastic teachers have been lost to industry and business and other fields simply because of the difference in pay?

When I left teaching and went into computer support, I took a pay cut. I made more as a teacher. The eventual large pay increases came because I went into management. The same holds true for teachers-- taking on more responsibility by becoming a department head or by going into administration and becoming a principal, superintendent, etc, is the path to high earnings.

It’s a sad commentary on our nation that teachers make what we do, considering what’s at stake when we go to work.

It’s a sad commentary on entitlement that teachers think they should get paid loads of money, and shame on everyone for believing this persistent myth of downtrodden, poorly paid teachers.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Actually the BLS states teachers except college and university have a mean pay of $46,221 and a hour base 1442 ( pg 74 supplement) which would be $32.05/hour given they also report $32.06 (pg 8 main report)for full time teachers in the same category it seems hard to justify higher numbers. Second all income numbers are skewed which is inherent to the nature of income and why “medians” are typically used. The chart does not list medians which is unfortunate however it does tell us 50% of teachers made less that $29.98 ( Pg 2 supplement) however that line also lists $31.51* as the average meaning the median is about 5% behind at this point. More importantly the same line lists $23.55( Pg 2 supplement) as 25 percentile meaning making 25% below the quoted average is perfectly normal teacher pay. ( that is $34,000 per year for a regular working teacher)

As was mentioned earlier most money in school budgets is not spent at the instruction level thus I have no problem believing many Teachers spend personal income on supplies.

• I’ll assume this is the affect of part time teachers
  references are :
  NATIONAL
  NCS: Occupational Wages in the United States, June 2005, Bulletin 2581 (PDF 722K)
  NCS: Occupational Wages in the United States, June 2005, Supplementary tables (PDF 347K)
  available at bls.gov/ncs/ocs/compub.htm

 

[DanteAlighieri]

First of all, I teach in a Christian school, which is where I believe God wants me at the moment. I could make a great deal more money at a public school were I to go that route, but I believe am am where I am called to be right now.

Secondly, I was using hyperbole to make a point. Given that we teachers have a great deal to do with the development of our most precious resource, one would think that the priority of our society would be to ensure that only the most highly qualified among us would be teaching. I have known many who were intrigued by the idea of teaching but could not (or would not) absorb the pay cut it would require.

Thirdly, even in the public school system with which I am most familiar, teachers do not make more than many blue-collar workers. Your suggestion that one should up and move to a better-paying district is simplistic and ignores many real concerns, i.e. family, spouses’ jobs, love of the community, etc.

Fourth, you contradict yourself in saying that paying teachers 6-figure salaries would not fix the problem, and then following up by saying the way they currently are paid fosters mediocrity. I KNOW it fosters mediocrity; if teachers were paid based on their profession’s value to society, I’d never be able to get a job with my current credentials because of the probable glut of new teachers.

Fifth, teachers who strive to make their classrooms exciting places that foster creative and critical thinking often need to go above and beyond the normal routine. This frequently involves personal expense – be it art supplies (and, yes, I teach English), classroom signs, additional bulletin boards, instructional materials, books for a classroom library, candy for prizes, etc., there’s only so much money available from the school (or district) for such things. I suppose a teacher could decide they didn’t need such things, but why? Because the kids aren’t worth the extra expense?

Sixth, when you say teachers make an average of $34 an hour, is that figure based on the number of hours in a school day? I personally work many more hours than that, as do most of the truly dedicated teachers that I know.

Finally (I can’t stress this enough), let me reiterate that I was speaking in hyperbole to make a point – that our nation’s priorities are screwed up. Teachers ought to be paid better than they are, be they in public or private schools. Many of the teachers with whom I worked at my last school – an urban Catholic school with a mostly low-income, blue collar family base – worked second jobs during the school year in order to make ends meet.

One more thing – please don’t presume to scold me. I never said anything about “downtrodden, poor teachers”, nor anything that should be construed as such. Nothing I’ve said is a “myth”, either. Statistics are fantastic, but as the saying goes, statistics can be used the way a drunk uses a lamppost: either for support or illumination. Besides, given the state of education in our country, it’s pretty obvious that the statistics are missing something.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Texas_Roofer]

A regular teacher would make more in a privatized school system. The excessive costs for administration, overhead, and capital expenses would shrink. Of course employment conditions would change. And yes students would do better.

 

[1ke]

First of all, I teach in a Christian school, which is where I believe God wants me at the moment. I could make a great deal more money at a public school were I to go that route, but I believe am am where I am called to be right now.

If you are where you feel called to be, that’s wonderful. I am where I feel called to be also.

Secondly, I was using hyperbole to make a point.

Unfortunately, the “hyperbole” is repeated so often that it is believed as true.

And, here’s my hyperbole to make my point: I’d rather pay PFC Jones who is sitting on the wall in Iraq a 6 figure salary than Mrs. Jones who is sitting on her butt handing out worksheets. (Note, I said hyperbole, I know very well not all teachers are lazy Mrs. Joneses). However, basic economics tells us we cannot pay unlimited amounts to these people any more than we can manufacture unlimited guns *and *butter.

Given that we teachers have a great deal to do with the development of our most precious resource, one would think that the priority of our society would be to ensure that only the most highly qualified among us would be teaching. I have known many who were intrigued by the idea of teaching but could not (or would not) absorb the pay cut it would require.

However, you equate “highly paid” with “highly qualified” and that is not always a one-to-one relationship. Those who were “intrigued” with the “idea” of teaching may not have in fact been good teachers.

I do agree it is important to have qualified teachers. That is why I am in favor of competency exams. No qualified teacher should be afraid of one-- however the teacher unions in this country have a strangle-hold on the education system. And, the unions do not favor competency-- they favor collecting dues and protecting incompentent teachers.

Thirdly, even in the public school system with which I am most familiar, teachers do not make more than many blue-collar workers.

I did not say teachers make more than blue collar workers. I said they made more than white-collar workers (see the link). And, blue collar workers typically work lots of overtime and in the most undesirable job-- think plumber crawling around in your iky crawl-space in the basement or oil rig worker in dangerous circumstances.

Your suggestion that one should up and move to a better-paying district is simplistic and ignores many real concerns, i.e. family, spouses’ jobs, love of the community, etc.

I didn’t say one should up and move, however what I did say is we all make choices. And, if you choose to live in an area of the country that has lower paying jobs then that is your choice, but you aren’t forced to live there and you can seek out a higher paying district. Many people migrate in search of better paying jobs, not just teachers, again economic forces at work.

Fourth, you contradict yourself in saying that paying teachers 6-figure salaries would not fix the problem, and then following up by saying the way they currently are paid fosters mediocrity.

No, it’s not a contradiction. I said the current way we pay teachers fosters mediocrity, and to pay them more under the current system would not fix the problem-- we’d just have 6 figure salary teachers producing the same mediocre outputs.

I KNOW it fosters mediocrity; if teachers were paid based on their profession’s value to society, I’d never be able to get a job with my current credentials because of the probable glut of new teachers.

I did not advocate paying them based on their “value to society”. I advocated paying them based on their actual performance.

Fifth, teachers who strive to make their classrooms exciting places that foster creative and critical thinking often need to go above and beyond the normal routine. This frequently involves personal expense – be it art supplies (and, yes, I teach English), classroom signs, additional bulletin boards, instructional materials, books for a classroom library, candy for prizes, etc., there’s only so much money available from the school (or district) for such things.

I agree a classroom should be an exciting place. I disagree that one needs to spend gobs on one’s own money to make it an exciting place.

 

[1ke]

I suppose a teacher could decide they didn’t need such things, but why? Because the kids aren’t worth the extra expense?

For heaven’s sake, no kid ever died because they didn’t get candy in their classroom or a fancy bulletin board. I think we are losing sight of wants versus needs. And, for classrooms that truly lack the fundamental supplies the appropriate action is to go to the school board if the budget is lacking. Buying supplies out of your own pocket does two things-- masks the problem and perpetuates the “oh poor me” mantra.

Sixth, when you say teachers make an average of $34 an hour, is that figure based on the number of hours in a school day? I personally work many more hours than that, as do most of the truly dedicated teachers that I know.

Please read the link. Yes, it is based on hours worked, and so are the computations for the other white collar jobs-- all of which also work overtime. If you think teachers are some unique class of people who are the only ones to take home work or put in extra hours you are sadly mistaken. So, yes, it’s apples to apples.

Finally (I can’t stress this enough), let me reiterate that I was speaking in hyperbole to make a point – that our nation’s priorities are screwed up. Teachers ought to be paid better than they are, be they in public or private schools.

I cannot speak for private schools, as I have no data on those (I know most pay lower than public schools, but I don’t have actual numbers). As for public school numbers, the data doesn’t bear it out. A beginning teacher in Dallas ISD, or the surrounding suburban Dallas metro districts makes approximately $42,000. The employees I hire, with degrees, make a starting salary in the $30,000 range, a full $12,000 lower for many more days of work per year.

Many of the teachers with whom I worked at my last school – an urban Catholic school with a mostly low-income, blue collar family base – worked second jobs during the school year in order to make ends meet.

I am sorry to hear that. However, I am speaking of public schools. Private schools are not controlled by the public, by taxes, elected school boards, and legislatures. Therefore, there is nothing that can be done about their pay-- only the private board and parents paying tuition can impact them (unless the legislature and Supreme Court are convinced vouchers are Constitutional).

One more thing – please don’t presume to scold me. I never said anything about “downtrodden, poor teachers”, nor anything that should be construed as such.

I wasn’t scolding you. This entire thread is about “downtrodden” teachers.

Nothing I’ve said is a “myth”, either. Statistics are fantastic, but as the saying goes, statistics can be used the way a drunk uses a lamppost: either for support or illumination. Besides, given the state of education in our country, it’s pretty obvious that the statistics are missing something.

If you choose not to believe the data, then that’s fine. And, you are correct “something” is wrong with our education system. I just don’t agree that it’s the amount we pay our teachers. I do think it’s the way we pay them, and a whole host of things that have nothing to do with teachers.

For the public who believe this is a serious issue, I suggest going to school board meetings, especially the Finance committee and any union negotiating committees. Learn how the finance system works. Lobby your legislators. Be informed.

 

[1ke]

As was mentioned earlier most money in school budgets is not spent at the instruction level

Um, no, “we” didn’t mention that “most money in school budgets is not spent at the instruction level”. YOU proposed this, and the data does **not **back up your ideas. I’m sorry that you have some alternate-universe math that you are using, but it’s not real math and the data is there, for example the DISD budget example.

If you are so concerned, why don’t you go to the school board meetings? I have been to them in my community. I suggest you go in yours.