Something Must Be Done About Those High Paid Teachers

[Em_in_FL]

I would love to be a teacher, but can’t take the pay cut.

I’ve researched and researched and the best I could do (as a high school math or science teacher… very HIGHLY NEEDED in our area) is around $40,000 per year…

I know teaching is a hard job… so having a difficult job (even though I’d probably enjoy it more) is not worth a MAJOR pay cut.

Sad.

I agree with the OP.

 

[puzzleannie]

But teachers get a two month vacation.

not here, they teach summer school and in-service, almost a full academic load for June and school starts early in August. Those involved in sports, coaching, tournaments etc. have bareley 2-3 weeks off.

 

[cpayne]

Before I stick my foot in my mouth, I have a question.

How does the behavior of private school students compare to public school students whose parents who use the schools solely as a free baby sitting service?

Sometimes the behavior is similar. However, the big difference is that in private schools (1) you generally can do something about the behavior, and (2) the parents generally support the attempts at discipline. In public schools for the most part, unless the student behavior is fairly egregious, the teacher is stuck with the problem.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

If you look at Dallas school budget you would see if a teacher cost $40k and had total responsibility of 30 kids that would use 20% of the total budget.

 

[1ke]

Yes, but there’s usually quite a difference between their salaries and a teacher’s for the same amount of work.

I disagree with your assessment. I think teachers, in general, believe that the rest of the world is making lots of money. This is not true. Most professional “office” positions are being paid a similar wage to teachers with fewer benefits.

There are many positions that pay a comparative wage (and those people work a full year, excluding paid vacation of usually 2 weeks) and demand considerable amounts of overtime, weekend work, or taking work home.

I was trained in education and worked as a teacher for several years. I moved into industry and have been in a number of positions over the years. I’ve dealth with HR functions and have seen the salary matrix data for many professions. The data does not support your hypothesis.

In general wages are a function of supply and demand. Raises are constrained by revenue, profit, budgets, and market forces. In the case of the public sector wages are constrained by legislation, budgets & taxe revenues. And, in general, teachers are paid less than some high demand, high skilled positions but more than many other positions for which a degree is required.

 

[1ke]

fyi ask your school to show you the sum of teachers salaries verses total school budget you’ll see quite a difference.

Compensation (salaries and benefits) is the majority of all school budgets. Operating expenses, physical plant, etc, is miniscule in comparison to what is expended on salaries.

Public school budgets are public record, anyone can review their school’s revenues vs expenses.

 

[1ke]

If you look at Dallas school budget you would see if a teacher cost $40k and had total responsibility of 30 kids that would use 20% of the total budget.

I think your logic is flawed, please explain this statistic you have thrown out.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

If teachers work toward free market principles in teaching their salaries would increase per student, no doubt about it. However as the government is involved the salaries reflect such. Private schools get bounded because the parents must pay both taxes to fund the public school and the private school tuition both at once.

fyi ask your school to show you the sum of teachers salaries verses total school budget you’ll see quite a difference.

Compensation (salaries and benefits) is the majority of all school budgets. Operating expenses, physical plant, etc, is miniscule in comparison to what is expended on salaries.

Public school budgets are public record, anyone can review their school’s revenues vs expenses.

Salaries in the budget are not equal to teacher salaries, that is another surprisingly large difference. Teacher salaries are not 85% or 90% or 95% of all school budgeted salaries.

If you look at Dallas school budget you would see if a teacher cost $40k and had total responsibility of 30 kids that would use 20% of the total budget.

I think your logic is flawed, please explain this statistic you have thrown out.

for 2006 Dallas ISD budget is 1.08 billion with an expect 161,000 students. If you use the suggested 30 students per teacher and the suggested $30k or $40k you will get:

1.08b / (1.08b / 161,000 /30 students per teacher x $30k) = ~15%
1.08b / (1.08b / 161,000 /30 student per teacher x $40k) = ~20%

If you see a flaw let me know

source for students dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/education/backtoschool/vitindex.html
for budget wallacefoundation.org/ELAN/NewsRoom/2006+Second+Quarter/news_tx_6_22_06.htm

 

[daeve]

Before I stick my foot in my mouth, I have a question.

How does the behavior of private school students compare to public school students whose parents who use the schools solely as a free baby sitting service?

Well, my feathers ruffled at that statement, so your foot may already be there.

My kids went to public schools, because they both had special needs that the Catholic schools here couldn’t accommodate, and I couldn’t afford it anyway as a single mother. The school was not my idea of a baby sitter. Parents are parents and kids are kids, whatever kind of school. Some kids learn, some don’t; some parents cooperate and help out, but some expect everyone else to pick up the slack.

About the pay for teachers…they get an annual salary. For some it’s spread out over 12 months and for others it’s all paid during the school year. They don’t get paid for time they don’t work…but some get paid for time they did work during time they don’t work.

 

[mommyof4]

Before I stick my foot in my mouth, I have a question.

How does the behavior of private school students compare to public school students whose parents who use the schools solely as a free baby sitting service?

I have worked in both public and private schools. In my personal experience, I haven’t seen a big difference in behavior. The advantage that a private school has over a public one is that they can expel a student for behavior problems much easier than a public school can. It takes an act of congress to expel a student from a public school, and then it is the public schools duty to find an alternative placement for the student, and they have to pay for the placement.

Again, in my experience, it boils down to behavior expectations of the teacher and the parents. If they both have high expectations for student achievement and behavior, the kids usually do pretty well. If low expectations on either part, then poor behavior and achievement.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I disagree with your assessment. I think teachers, in general, believe that the rest of the world is making lots of money. This is not true. Most professional “office” positions are being paid a similar wage to teachers with fewer benefits.

There are many positions that pay a comparative wage (and those people work a full year, excluding paid vacation of usually 2 weeks) and demand considerable amounts of overtime, weekend work, or taking work home.

I was trained in education and worked as a teacher for several years. I moved into industry and have been in a number of positions over the years. I’ve dealth with HR functions and have seen the salary matrix data for many professions. The data does not support your hypothesis.

In general wages are a function of supply and demand. Raises are constrained by revenue, profit, budgets, and market forces. In the case of the public sector wages are constrained by legislation, budgets & taxe revenues. And, in general, teachers are paid less than some high demand, high skilled positions but more than many other positions for which a degree is required.

First, the governments of the states COULDN’T afford to pay teachers what they’re worth or, rather, what the position is worth. I’m not one of these people who bewail the fact that I’m not making what Dion Saunders is making playing professional football. I’m not complaining about my salary at all, I’m doing fine. I’m talking about misconceptions about the job.

Second, I guess we aren’t using a common definition of professional. I’m thinking Drs., attorneys, engineers, that kind of thing, not simply “non-blue collar.” What kind of positions are you talking about?

 

[LeahInancsi]

In our area… private school teachers actually make LESS than public school teachers… mostly because they’re guaranteed an easier job (better behaved kids in private school… benefit to the teachers)… they’ll take a pay cut to have better kids.

That was my point. I don’t think anyone could pay me enough to teach public school. It wasn’t easy 40 years ago when I was a kid. It must be impossible now.

That said, private school teachers should be paid a respectable salary.

 

[1ke]

for 2006 Dallas ISD budget is 1.08 billion with an expect 161,000 students. If you use the suggested 30 students per teacher and the suggested $30k or $40k you will get:

If you see a flaw let me know

Yes, I see a number of flaws.

(1) You assumed a 30:1 student/teacher ratio concluding that there are 161,000/30 = 5,366 teachers. In fact, Dallas ISD has approximately 20K employees, 11K of whom are teachers.

(2) You equated compensation with salary. A teacher’s compensation includes district paid benefits. I do not know what the expenditure is on benefits for DISD, but industry standard is 36% of salary. Therefore, the in your example you should have used average compensation of $40,800 to $54,400.

(3) You low-balled the salaries. Starting salary for a DISD teacher in 2006-2007 is $42,000 for a teacher with a bachelor’s degree and no experience. This does not include stipends based on subjects taught, additional extracurricular stipends, additional degrees, or benefits.

dallasisd.org/employment/nas/compbook0607.pdf

A more realistic “average” district teacher salary is going to be approximately in the $60-70K range with benefits without knowing the actual make up of teacher seniority/actual salary schedules.

With that in mind, using the conservative side of salary & benefits:

$60,000 x 11,000 = 660,000,000
660,000,000/1,080,000,000 = 61% of budget

Add to that the salary schedule for all the support staff that make a school run: librarian, guidance counselor, bus driver, lunch lady… and you will find that upwards of 80% of any school budget is compensation of staff.

 

[Sarabande]

Something Must Be Done About Those High Paid Teachers

- SICK OF THOSE HIGH PAID TEACHERS?

I, for one, am sick and tired of those high paid teachers. Their hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work nine or ten months a year!

It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do....baby-sit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage. That's right. I would give them $3.00 dollars an hour and only the hours they worked, not any of that silly planning time.  That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 AM to 4:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch). Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children.

Now, how many do they teach in a day… maybe 30? So that’s 19.5 X 30 = $585.00 a day. But remember they only work
180 days a year! I’m not going to pay them for any vacations.
Let’s see. . . that’s $585 x 180 = $105,300

Hold on! My calculator must need batteries!)

What about those special teachers or the ones with master’s
degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage just to be fair. Round it off to $7.00 an hour. That would be $7 times 6-1/2 hours times 30 children times 180 days=$245,700.00 per year.

Wait a minute, there is something wrong here!

There sure is, duh!

I thought you were serious for a second. I worked as a music teacher and children’s choir/handbell choir director for two years at a Catholic school. I was parttime and and made $15,000 (obviously, I had another job), but a starting teacher’s salary full-time in this particular Catholic school was $21,000. Hardly enough to live on in a metropolitan city, but they do it, and most loved their students and were dedicated to them. It was a lower, middle-class city neighborhood, so that was basically all the parish could afford to pay their teachers. The school closed down a year after I left. It was a pity. I loved those kids and their parents.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Actually no

Others threw out the numbers as $30k and $40k not I.

I did not equity salary and compensation

I did not low ball anything all number were from others

Yes, I see a number of flaws.

(1) You assumed a 30:1 student/teacher ratio concluding that there are 161,000/30 = 5,366 teachers. In fact, Dallas ISD has approximately 20K employees, 11K of whom are teachers.

(2) You equated compensation with salary. A teacher’s compensation includes district paid benefits. I do not know what the expenditure is on benefits for DISD, but industry standard is 36% of salary. Therefore, the in your example you should have used average compensation of $40,800 to $54,400.

(3) You low-balled the salaries. Starting salary for a DISD teacher in 2006-2007 is $42,000 for a teacher with a bachelor’s degree and no experience. This does not include stipends based on subjects taught, additional extracurricular stipends, additional degrees, or benefits.

dallasisd.org/employment/nas/compbook0607.pdf

A more realistic “average” district teacher salary is going to be approximately in the $60-70K range with benefits without knowing the actual make up of teacher seniority/actual salary schedules.

With that in mind, using the conservative side of salary & benefits:

$60,000 x 11,000 = 660,000,000
660,000,000/1,080,000,000 = 61% of budget

Add to that the salary schedule for all the support staff that make a school run: librarian, guidance counselor, bus driver, lunch lady… and you will find that upwards of 80% of any school budget is compensation of staff.

1ke even in the numbers you are throwing out which is $60k and roughly 15 students per teacher you both clash hard with the other posters and still show 39% of the budget being used else where.

 

[mommyof4]

I thought you were serious for a second.

I’m a teacher too - no, I don’t think teachers are paid too much!

 

[1ke]

Actually no

Others threw out the numbers as $30k and $40k not I.

I did not equity salary and compensation

I did not low ball anything all number were from others

Yes, but you then applied those to actual DISD data. You cannot mix apples and oranges. Using actual DISD teacher and salary information gives a more accuate picture.

1ke even in the numbers you are throwing out which is $60k and roughly 15 students per teacher you both clash hard with the other posters

Other posters have likely made assumptions regarding student/teacher ratios, salary, and benefits that are far different from actual numbers. These assumptions skew the perception of teacher salaries, percent of budget, etc.

The numbers I provided are based on much more accurate estimates, real DISD data.

and still show 39% of the budget being used else where.

Yes, and as I mentioned that 39% must still cover the remaining 9,000 support employees. Even using an extremely conservative, and likely low estmiate of $30K per support employee total compensation that is another 25% of the DISD budget.

That is 86% on salary/compensation of employees-- very close to my estimate.

That leaves 15% for the **entire **physical plant, supplies, and all other expenses-- excluding capital expenditures that likely require a bond issue or other non-operating fund source of revenue.

It is completely **false **to assert that schools are spending only a small percent of their revenues on teachers.

 

[mystified]

Yeah. It is hard to be softened by the crocodile tears of a lot of teachers. Where I live, the starting salary is $40,000 a year, with lots of benefits. I never made that much in my life, with a Master’'s.
It’s difficult to feel sorry for a group whose reserved parking is filled with late model Mercedes and Lexus cars. I just hope my Social Security will allow me to keep a roof over my head until I die, while paying ever-increasing school taxes.

 

[1ke]

Yeah. It is hard to be softened by the crocodile tears of a lot of teachers. Where I live, the starting salary is $40,000 a year, with lots of benefits. I never made that much in my life, with a Master’'s.
It’s difficult to feel sorry for a group whose reserved parking is filled with late model Mercedes and Lexus cars. I just hope my Social Security will allow me to keep a roof over my head until I die, while paying ever-increasing school taxes.

Yes, using the example of the Dallas ISD provided above, and examining their salary schedule you find:

Starting teacher, no experience, no extra stipends:

$42,000 for a 183 day contract.

183 x 8 = 1464 hours per year on which salary is based

$42,000/1464 = $28.68/hour.

If they were working the same number of days as an industry worker (260 days a year) at the same pay rate, then that would equate to:

$28.68 x 2080 = $59,654.00

 

[LeahInancsi]

Yeah. It is hard to be softened by the crocodile tears of a lot of teachers. Where I live, the starting salary is $40,000 a year, with lots of benefits. I never made that much in my life, with a Master’'s.
It’s difficult to feel sorry for a group whose reserved parking is filled with late model Mercedes and Lexus cars. I just hope my Social Security will allow me to keep a roof over my head until I die, while paying ever-increasing school taxes.

I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. The concept of supply and demand is applicable in this situation. Very few people want to teach in the DISD. If you would like to have good benefits and make $60-70k/yr (or even $40k), I’m sure the DISD can find a classroom for you.

Does your workplace have metal detectors at the doors to keep children from bringing guns in?