Sorry for Judas

[Evan]

Actually, St. Thomas Aquinas IS a Catholic, not “was” a Catholic. While the Summa Theologica has, in some cases, defined Catholic Theology for hundreds of years, not all of St. Thomas’ ideas have been promulgated as infallible teachings. While I clearly do not have the credentials to match up with St. Thomas I respectfully disagree with him on this point. In fact I would say that our Pope Benedict XVI’s first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, would also refute this particular belief. Love is after all, an emotion.

Love is a choice, not an emotion. A choice to desire the best for the beloved.

That is why we can promise to Love someone 'till death do us part. No emotion will survive, unabated, for a lifetime. Emotions come and go. Choices are made with the intellect and, even when angry, hurt, or confused, can be held to.

The first encyclical (Deus Caritas Est) has the official english title “On Christian Love”. The translation of the Latin is “God is Charity” or “God is Christian Love”. Amor is Love, Caritas is Charity. In fact, my Latin English dictionary of many years ago does not even list Love as one of the available translations of Caritas.

I vote that God does not feel emotions as God does not change. He is simple (no parts, no past) as Thomas puts it. But my vote is not worth a hill of beans as I cannot tell God what He feels or even know Him in His essence.

BTW, the church regularly prays for all those in purgatory, That may include or may have included Judas

 

[bilop]

I know the Church teaches thatwe can’t definitively say anyone is in hell. But, Christ says:

Matthew 26:24

but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born.

He knows Judas will betray him, and he knows whether or not he will repent. If he repented, then it wouldn’t be better for him not to have been born b/c eventually he will be in heaven.

Therefore, I think Christ’s words are a pretty strong indication, and the reason most Christians have believed that Judas is most likely in Hell.

 

[DallasCatholic]

Love is a choice, not an emotion. A choice to desire the best for the beloved.

That is why we can promise to Love someone 'till death do us part. No emotion will survive, unabated, for a lifetime. Emotions come and go. Choices are made with the intellect and, even when angry, hurt, or confused, can be held to.

The first encyclical (Deus Caritas Est) has the official english title “On Christian Love”. The translation of the Latin is “God is Charity” or “God is Christian Love”. Amor is Love, Caritas is Charity. In fact, my Latin English dictionary of many years ago does not even list Love as one of the available translations of Caritas.

I vote that God does not feel emotions as God does not change. He is simple (no parts, no past) as Thomas puts it. But my vote is not worth a hill of beans as I cannot tell God what He feels or even know Him in His essence.

BTW, the church regularly prays for all those in purgatory, That may include or may have included Judas

Evan,
First of all, I am not a Latin scholar. If you will refer to the following document that was put out by the Catholic News service you will see that they give the title as “God is Love”.

stannparish.org/orgs/organizations/54/pics/documents/32/benedictencyc01.pdf

I also understand that in American society love has different meanings, I love tacos and I love my wife…the two are obviously (I hope) not equal. Further more I know that Caritas means charity. Unfortunately too many Bible translations have substitued the word “love” for “charity”. For example, in the Douay Rheims 1 Corinthians Chapter 13 verse 13:
“And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.”

While the RSV, same chapter and verse:
“So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.”

This disturbed me when I read it because love is such an all encompassing word in English. So I Iooked up charity in my dictionary and found it defined as “Love of humanity”. So charity is a very specific kind of love.

I would disagree that love is only a choice. Having experienced love and marriage (umm, maybe I should say that I am continuing to experience love and marriage going on 23 years now). I can say that for me love is very much an emotion and (I can see your point) a choice. If you have any children then you have direct experince of the strong emotional content of love for them. In my love for my son I can also strongly identify with God’s love for us…and again that for me is very emotional.

Some of the other posters have shown quotes from scripture where God expresses loathing and hatred as well as love…not to mention the number of times we hear about wrath, those to me seem to be emotions.

I know this is OT, but I agree that we, as humans, cannot know God’s essence nor “tell him how to feel”. However my personal opinion (on which we respectfully disagree) is that God does feel emotions…especially since Jesus (fully human and fully divine) is God. On the original topic, I agree with some other posters who point out that we cannot know the disposition of any soul. Judas may be in Heaven or Hell and only God knows.

 

[dorothy_smith]

I vote that God does not feel emotions as God does not change. He is simple (no parts, no past) as Thomas puts it. But my vote is not worth a hill of beans as I cannot tell God what He feels or even know Him in His essence.

The verses (below) in St John’s Gospel must surely abate the argument whether God feels emotion. You’ve stated that God does not change. I agree.

“32: Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33: When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled; 34: and he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35: Jesus wept. 36: So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37: But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” 38: Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb; it was a cave, and a stone lay upon it (John 11:32-38).”

 

[dorothy_smith]

Peter, the first Pope advocates that he will never deny Christ but denied knowing him thrice at the time for witnessing to the Christ. However **he repented (this is most important) **and Scripture says he wept bitterly.

The unwitting testimony of the Word indicates that Judas also wept bitterly.

Judas was destined to betray Jesus to fulfil messianic prophesy. What happened as soon as prophesy was fulfilled? Judas laments and immediately returns the blood money to the priests and denounces what he had done. He is penitent for spilling innocent blood.

He confesses his sin. When we confess our sin we are absolved. Why not Judas? Is Judas in heaven? We can only speculate?! Did Judas repent in his final hours? The Word tells us that he did.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

unwitting testimony

This means what?

Dorothy, you are entitled to your opinion (and that is all it is, and indeed all anyone can offer. We’ll only know ‘the truth’ about this matter when we ourselves die).

Since opinion is only what we can offer, here is mine OPINION DISCLAIMER

Judas, poor soul, sinned. He recognized this (which is good). He was sorry (even better). He then was so greatly distraught that He killed himself. (and only God knows whether the sin of suicide was either mitigated enough, or the culpability lessened through not being in a sound state of mind and this making a free choice).

Why did Judas kill himself or think of doing so?
Here is a big question.
He had just betrayed His Lord and God.

So–did he kill himself because he thought God couldn’t forgive his sin? I hope not, because that is the ‘sin against the Holy Spirit’ according to Scripture. . .the sin of despair, of denying the infinite God, of blasphemy.

Why else would he have killed himself? As an atonement? That falls under “two wrongs which don’t make a right” though. Again, maybe he was not in his right mind. For certainly anyone in his right mind would see that this was sinful. Only God gives us life; we should not try to preempt him by attempting to choose when and how we want to end that life, true?

Either way, there was no ‘compulsion’ for Judas to kill himself. He had been a close companion to the Lord for 3 years; He knew the infinite love and mercy of Christ. What could Judas have done?

What if Judas had gone to Christ, even to the point of being arrested himself, confessed, begged forgiveness, and been crucified with Christ? He would have died, true–but the death would have been righteous, sanctified, and heroic. The same end result, but oh, how different the steps to get there! Not despair, not self-condemnation and loathing and horror and shame, but humility, trust, acceptance, repentance and true sacrifice.

Is Judas in hell?
Again, we do not know. We can hope he was forgiven. But (pardon me) we cannot presume to know that he was, or to give personal interpretations of Scripture one way or the other.

Since the Church has not said Judas is in hell, I would never presume to put him there. But I would likewise never presume to ‘trump’ God’s judgment by coming perilously close to implying that IF Judas is in hell then either God or the Catholic Church’s judgment is wrong. If that is not what you meant earlier in this post

The very conception of Hell is wickedness beyond comprehension. If we as Catholics believe that such a fate awaits anyone then there is something seriously flawed in our belief system.

then what did you mean?

It looks to me as though you are saying not just that Judas is not in hell, but nobody else is either. And that ‘hell’ is either made up or something God had no part in. And (pardon me) that is something which is not supported in Catholic teaching. Not at all.

 

[jonk]

The verses (below) in St John’s Gospel must surely abate the argument whether God feels emotion. You’ve stated that God does not change. I agree.

"32: Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33: When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled; 34: and he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” 35: Jesus wept. 36: So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37: But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” 38: Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb; it was a cave, and a stone lay upon it (John 11:32-38)."

Jesus is all God all man, so Jesus definitely felt emotion. I’m guessing the speculation was whether God the Father did. I don’t know. Emotion implies change. Christian love, agape, is an act of the will, so God could definitely love without emotion. Since his will is unchanging, his love would be unconditional. But since the Incarnation, God the Son has taken on human form, and the Trinity are one God… It’s speculative.

dorothy_smith:

The unwitting testimony of the Word indicates that Judas also wept bitterly.

Judas was destined to betray Jesus to fulfil messianic prophesy. What happened as soon as prophesy was fulfilled? Judas laments and immediately returns the blood money to the priests and denounces what he had done. He is penitent for spilling innocent blood.

He confesses his sin. When we confess our sin we are absolved. Why not Judas? Is Judas in heaven? We can only speculate?! Did Judas repent in his final hours? The Word tells us that he did.

Because Jesus said it would have been better that Judas had never been born, many people will disagree with you, but you are free to hold that interpretation.

You say Judas was destined to betray Jesus - yes and no. It was prophesied, but he did it of his own free will. In no way did God take away his free will, so if Judas is damned, it is as a result of his own actions.

One can argue that Judas wept because of regret - he regretted what he did and that his sin would damn him. Instead of feeling sorrow for his sin against God, he felt sorry for himself and his repentance was not complete because he lacked contrition.

It can go both ways, since it’s all speculation, but Jesus’ words and the fact that Judas committed suicide and the contrast between Judas and Peter are probably the reason why the other view is much more common.

God bless

 

[jonk]

The very conception of Hell is wickedness beyond comprehension. If we as Catholics believe that such a fate awaits anyone then there is something seriously flawed in our belief system.

Hell does exist, but it is a consequence our choice to reject God. While the Bible may be ambiguous on Judas’ final destiny, it is unambiguously clear on hell.

If hell didn’t exist or was only temporary, then we wouldn’t need a Saviour. But hell does exist, and it is a state of eternal hatred towards God and separation from Him.

It is God who had mercy on us and chose to sacrifice His Son to atone for our sins and spare those who accept His sacrifice from His perfect justice. We should be grateful that God loved His creatures so much that He, the Creator of all that is, would humble Himself and suffer for our sake, that we may not suffer eternally as we rightfully deserve.

 

[tptram]

He confesses his sin. When we confess our sin we are absolved. Why not Judas?

Judas did not make a ‘good confession’ – no contrition and faith in God’s love.
He did not recognized God’s love and forgiveness as Peter did.

The high priests did not absolve Judas’ sin because they do not have the authority as Peter has. (in fact they didn’t even bother)

‘Being born’ means to have a soul. To have your soul destroyed or anniliated or cease to exist is a horrible aspect – Jesus said Judas is facing a worse fate:“Better for him if he had never been born”

my take

Tak

 

[NotWorthy]

Regarding Judas, don’t forget he was also a thief, as the Gospels tell of him taking money out of the bag (it seems our good Judas was the treasurer of the group). I don’t see repentence for that, only for betraying Jesus.

I’m not judging the man, but if I were a betting man…

Besides, it sure seems that Peter passed judgement on Judas in Acts:

For it is written in the Book of Psalms: ‘Let his encampment become desolate, and may no one dwell in it.’ And: 'May another take his office.’

 

[Other_Eric]

Actually, St. Thomas Aquinas IS a Catholic, not “was” a Catholic. While the Summa Theologica has, in some cases, defined Catholic Theology for hundreds of years, not all of St. Thomas’ ideas have been promulgated as infallible teachings. While I clearly do not have the credentials to match up with St. Thomas I respectfully disagree with him on this point. In fact I would say that our Pope Benedict XVI’s first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, would also refute this particular belief. Love is after all, an emotion.

One would think that in referencing Deus Caritas Est in order to make your argument, you might have read the encyclical. If you had, you would then know that

. . . it is clearly revealed that love is not merely a sentiment. Sentiments come and go. A sentiment can be a marvellous first spark, but it is not the fullness of love. (1)

Thusly, even the Holy Father acknowledges that the love of God is not an emotion. Rather, it is an operation of the will. In this way love can be commanded of us, since love, as an emotion

. . . cannot be commanded; it is ultimately a feeling that is either there or not, nor can it be produced by the will. (2)

In the end, the love of God for man and the love one is commanded to have for one’s brethren is exactly not an emotion. Therefore, God need not feel anything in order to love. This has been the consistent teaching of the Church throughout the ages. Any god who is swayed by emotions cannot be God, since that deity would be subject to something outside of himself.

(1) Benedict XVI. Deus Caritas Est. Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2005. §17. Available online at: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

(2) Ibid. §16.

 

[patrick457]

In the Greek text of Matthew, Judas is described as having ‘metameletheis’-, which connotes a change of mind or decision (literally ‘to care afterwards’). Even though in some instances, it is translated as ‘repent’ in English (Such as in ‘The Lord has sworn, and he will not repent metamelethesetai]…’), It doesn’t have the almost technical religious meaning of ‘metanoiein’, the word used for ‘repent’ in the Gospels.

But of course, we don’t exactly know where Judas ended up. Let us leave that for God to know at the moment.

 

[dorothy_smith]

If hell didn’t exist or was only temporary, then we wouldn’t need a Saviour. But hell does exist, and it is a state of eternal hatred towards God and separation from Him.

It is God who had mercy on us and chose to sacrifice His Son to atone for our sins and spare those who accept His sacrifice from His perfect justice. We should be grateful that God loved His creatures so much that He, the Creator of all that is, would humble Himself and suffer for our sake, that we may not suffer eternally as we rightfully deserve.

If you are correct in saying that Hell does exist then by implication you are also saying that Heaven does not exist.

The definition of Heaven is a state of bliss, right? Imagine that your spouse, son, daughter, mother or father died in mortal sin but you did not. How could you spend eternity in a state of bliss knowing that your loved one(s) are suffering eternal damnation? You could not. No one could.

 

[NotWorthy]

If you are correct in saying that Hell does exist then by implication you are also saying that Heaven does not exist.

The definition of Heaven is a state of bliss, right? Imagine that your spouse, son, daughter, mother or father died in mortal sin but you did not. How could you spend eternity in a state of bliss knowing that your loved one(s) are suffering eternal damnation? You could not. No one could.

Dorothy, when I originally said you had a good point, I was certainly referring to the fact they we should mourn the loss of Judas, as we mourn the loss of any sinner to hell.

But… (and you knew there was a “but” coming, eh?) your assumption of there being no hell is bordering on heresy, in my opinion - maybe even crossing over that line a while ago, if you will.

Those that make it to heaven will mourn the loss of their loved ones, but that will be infinitesmal compared to the love that they will experience when faced with the Beatific Vision.

When you come to realize that those that are in hell are there simply because they chose not to be with God (any sin is placing our own desires above those of God’s Will). And God gives those people want they want. If they wished to exist without God dwelling in their soul while they were here on earth, then God allows them to dwell in eternity without Him. No one is in hell by any other choice than their own.

 

[dorothy_smith]

But… (and you knew there was a “but” coming, eh?) your assumption of there being no hell is bordering on heresy, in my opinion - maybe even crossing over that line a while ago, if you will.

LOL I am not a heretic We are discussing theoretically, conjecture and so on, nothing empirically based. That is the whole point isn’t it?

 

[dorothy_smith]

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

Judas, poor soul, sinned. He recognized this (which is good). He was sorry (even better). He then was so greatly distraught that He killed himself. (and only God knows whether the sin of suicide was either mitigated enough, or the culpability lessened through not being in a sound state of mind and this making a free choice).

Your rhetoric does show compassion for Judas. I am proud of you.

Why did Judas kill himself or think of doing so?
Here is a big question.
He had just betrayed His Lord and God.

So–did he kill himself because he thought God couldn’t forgive his sin? I hope not, because that is the ‘sin against the Holy Spirit’ according to Scripture. . .the sin of despair, of denying the infinite God, of blasphemy.

Despair is suffering. It is not sinful.

Why else would he have killed himself? As an atonement? That falls under “two wrongs which don’t make a right” though. Again, maybe he was not in his right mind. For certainly anyone in his right mind would see that this was sinful. Only God gives us life; we should not try to preempt him by attempting to choose when and how we want to end that life, true?

As you point out, Judas must not have been thinking straight otherwise he would not have killed himself.

Either way, there was no ‘compulsion’ for Judas to kill himself. He had been a close companion to the Lord for 3 years; He knew the infinite love and mercy of Christ. What could Judas have done?

If he had faith in Jesus would he have betrayed Him? Perhaps he was another doubting Thomas?

What if Judas had gone to Christ, even to the point of being arrested himself, confessed, begged forgiveness, and been crucified with Christ? He would have died, true–but the death would have been righteous, sanctified, and heroic.

The authorities finally had Jesus for insurrection. There is no way that they would have let His informer martyr himself in front of the crowds. They would not have risked Jesus receiving such commendation. It would have undermined them.

Judas may have been desperate to repent in front of Jesus but was denied the chance. We do not know.

Quote:
The very conception of Hell is wickedness beyond comprehension. If we as Catholics believe that such a fate awaits anyone then there is something seriously flawed in our belief system.
then what did you mean?

I have referred to that in the post above.

 

[NotWorthy]

LOL I am not a heretic We are discussing theoretically, conjecture and so on, nothing empirically based. That is the whole point isn’t it?

Good! I’ve been known to ponder once in a while, so it’s all good!

 

[Sir_Knight]

If you are correct in saying that Hell does exist then by implication you are also saying that Heaven does not exist.

The definition of Heaven is a state of bliss, right? Imagine that your spouse, son, daughter, mother or father died in mortal sin but you did not. How could you spend eternity in a state of bliss knowing that your loved one(s) are suffering eternal damnation? You could not. No one could.

Recall the answer that Christ gave to another answer … “For man it is impossible but FOR GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.”

Christ said that people will go to hell. He also said that those in heaven will known happiness beyond their wildest expectations even if their loved ones are in hell.

If Jesus could have been wrong on either of these points, then He could have been wrong about any and/or all of His promises – thus making one’s faith based on doubt.

We either trust Jesus to keep all of His promises and we don’t have faith in any of His promises. It’s an all or none deal.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hi Dorothy>

Is God less compassionate than we are?

No. He is infinite compassion and also infinite justice. We are neither. Our conception of compassion is finite and imperfect. When you speak of justice, your (and my) conceptions are finite and imperfect as well, so if you see what appears to you injustice, are you really imputing that to God or are you unable to let go of your own** impression** that something is unjust, even if God has decreed it?

Has God told us of the existence of hell?

Yes. Read Matthew, Revelation, Ezekiel et. al. By definition, heaven is only for the pure. By definition, unrepented mortal or even venial sin (see John and James) is impure. Venial sin may be purified (Judas may be in purgatory). However, if he did not repent, he must be in hell. This is scriptural; God does not whitewash the dung heaps or take away sin even if we are not sorry. Therefore, the sin that leads to death leads to real, eternal death in hell. Remember that Jesus told us the ‘gate is narrow’ and that few will enter, and even for those few it would have been impossible for them to do so meriting it on their own, but only through God. Jesus could very easily have told us, 'The way is narrow, few will find it, but the rest of you will have your sins forgiven anyway even if you aren’t sorry, because surely when you die you won’t want to go to hell, so I won’t make you." That is not a righteous God. What would you think of a judge who had a rapist and murderer appear before him, who was not sorry, and said, “Well, since I know you don’t want to go to prison I won’t send you there for the rest of your life”–case closed? How can you assume that people** will** repent? That the same people who chose their own will over God’s in life would magically change their minds for eternity at death? Think of the story of the rich man and his brothers. . .

Is hell where He wants us to go?

No. He not only created us for good (heaven) but has given each of us sufficient grace to (by continued maintenance of a state of grace in following him) attain salvation. . .if we ourselves cooperate in this. We can at any time freely and willfully choose to reject this grace. That is free will and obviously the good of free will is such that God has deemed it both right and good that this free will be given, even if some thereby choose evil.

Is hell where we choose to go?
Yes. Likewise, we can choose heaven.

You are, IMO and others, in your worthy quest for knowledge and understanding, in some danger of being sidetracked into a wrong judgment about the nature of compassion, justice, heaven and hell. I hope you’ll consider our posts on the subject. Thank you for bringing the issue up; we certainly have heard much and I hope it will be helpful to you and indeed all of us.

 

[jonk]

If you are correct in saying that Hell does exist then by implication you are also saying that Heaven does not exist.

The definition of Heaven is a state of bliss, right? Imagine that your spouse, son, daughter, mother or father died in mortal sin but you did not. How could you spend eternity in a state of bliss knowing that your loved one(s) are suffering eternal damnation? You could not. No one could.

Heaven is unity with God. It is bliss. When I affirm the existence of hell, which is separation from God, I do not deny the existence of heaven.

Everyone has free will and is free to reject God at any time. Indeed, all of us have at some point, and all of us continue to have that ability until death.

I agree that our happiness in heaven would definitely be greater if all of our loved ones were there, so you do have a point. We should pray for the conversion of our loved ones so that they too may share in God’s eternal glory. And by no means is it certain that we won’t be the ones who reject God and pridefully choose our eternal destiny apart from Him. One of St. Monica’s sons renounced Christianity for idolatry, lived a debauched lifestyle and had a son out of wedlock. She prayed for him incessantly and he is now known as St. Augustine.

Each person’s salvation is an individual thing. It sure would be great if we could take all our friends and family with us, but that would violate their free will. Some of our friends and family, and indeed we, might not want to be in the presence of God, and God does not impose Himself on anyone.

Satan always tempts us by making our concupiscent desires seem reasonable and good, encouraging us to affirm that which contradicts an informed conscience in favour of God’s will, to esteem our own intellect and will above God’s.

Whenever we commit a mortal sin, we knowingly and wilfully, and thus pridefully assert our own will above that of God - we utter the rebellious words of Satan: “I will not serve.” The consequences of mortal sin are infinite, for they are a transgression against our infinite God, and only an infinite sacrifice, that of Jesus Christ, can atone for them.

God desires our salvation, but the sin alters our souls in such a way that we would rather spite God and choose to be apart from Him than humble ourselves and accept a gift that we do not deserve. God says to those of us who choose thus: "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

When we repent, we renounce our own will and our own choices and humble ourselves before the greatness of our Creator. We acknowledge our need for God’s loving and infinite sacrifice to justify us and thus make ourselves capable of accepting it. God amply warns us of our capability of making such choices and of their gravity.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

God bless you