Speaking in tongues: genuine charism or silly gibberish?

[Cari]

I speak in the tongues of angels and saints. That’s more than I ever expected in my life time. I speak in the tongue of God at mass. I don’t know if it has to be gibberish.

Could you explain what this means, please? What, for instance, are the “tongues of saints”? Didn’t they speak human languages?

And how to you know you’re speaking the “tongue of God”? Do you mean Aramaic? After all, that’s the tongue Jesus spoke.

I’m not trying to be confrontational. I’m honestly trying to puzzle out what this all means, and how people develop the discernment necessary to tell who is the root of these happenings, and why.

As seen in previous poster’s 1st hand experiences, both Catholic and non-Catholics are failing to observe the rules for public tongue speaking set forth by St. Paul, so I’m trying to figure out where that all fits in to the proof of authenticity.

 

[redrosetea]

I can undesrtand the purpose in the early church to be able to speak different lanugages, as the apostles were commanded to go forth and teach. They had to be able to speak so others could understand

I do not understand the purpose of gibberish. Personally I don’t consider this a gift at all. I would never want to do it

.I am happy to say the church allows the charsimatics their own masses, and doesn’t try to force it down my throat

I went to one, found it theatrical, and will never attend another

 

[e61iuser]

If I saw someone speaking in gibberish in Mass I’d get uneasy and think twice about going to that church again. Speaking in gibberish and having someone “interpret” it for you smacks to me of exclusivity. God’s message is supposed to be for all.

 

[onaquest]

Could you explain what this means, please? What, for instance, are the “tongues of saints”? Didn’t they speak human languages?

And how to you know you’re speaking the “tongue of God”? Do you mean Aramaic? After all, that’s the tongue Jesus spoke.

I’m not trying to be confrontational. I’m honestly trying to puzzle out what this all means, and how people develop the discernment necessary to tell who is the root of these happenings, and why.

As seen in previous poster’s 1st hand experiences, both Catholic and non-Catholics are failing to observe the rules for public tongue speaking set forth by St. Paul, so I’m trying to figure out where that all fits in to the proof of authenticity.

The tongues of saints–THe Hail Mary, THe Glory Be
THe Tongue of God—Peace be With You.

THese are not the way I would speak without the Spirit of God dwelling within me.

 

[victus]

Speaking in tongues in 1 Corinthians 14, St. Paul makes alot of comparisons of tongues to speaking a foreign language.

7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me.

ESV

21 In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign [3] not for unbelievers but for believers.

ESV

Speaking in tongues is not a unknown language, but a foreign language unknown to the person at the time receiving the gift.

How is the Church edified? By speaking a known language to the people who you are speaking to. The Church is not edified by speaking a language that is unknown to the people. This is why St. Paul wants someone to interpret what is being said so that way the Church can be edified.

 

[bugz2007]

I will admit I am distrustful of tongues, sounding of gibberish, when performed in public. However, it seems to me that St. Paul is very clear about the existence of prayer of the individual spirit. This type of prayer, however, is one he refers to as an edification of the individual. Personal prayer, between an individual and the Lord. It seems to me that such prayer being made public does not edify anyone, as we are said in other parts of the bible to keep our personal prayer personal, and making a public display of this exclusive type of prayer could do only that - exclude. This seems to me as if it would counter any efforts to edify (or build up) the Church, which is something we are also called to do.

 

[ERose]

I hate that kind of stuff. I prefer more dignified forms of worship…if that is the only kind of worship there was I would stay home

I went to a Charismatic mass and everyone was waving their arms in the air including the priest…The person behind me wa praying out lout in a most annoyine manner

There wasn’t any of that talking in tongues stuff, I would have left it they started that gibberish

I find it all embarassing

Different strokes for different folks! The great thing about our Church is that it provides many types of devotions for the many types of people in it. Not all types of prayers are as edifying to all people. That is just the way we are.

But you cannot judge these other devotions as being bad because you dislike them. Like I said you have to look at the fruit.

 

[redrosetea]

I didn’t say they were bad. I said they are not for me…I would not go to mass if I was forced to partcipate in this type of thing

 

[ERose]

ERose, you write:

Yet this is stretching it, IMO. If someone were to start spontaneously speaking in Albanian, Farsi, or Urdu in my parish, someone would need the gift of interpretation. I don’t understand how people (and Dave Armstrong makes this same faulty reasoning in the above mentioned article) assume that because an interpreter is needed, the language must be of other-wordly origin.

**Truly I do not see the stretching of my point. Obviously from the verses, Paul felt that the gift he was speaking of was the tongue of Angels. Also considering that the event on Pentecost was never referred to a speaking in tongues does not make the two gifts identical. So to be honest you may be stretching it a little yourself. **

Yet every single case of speaking in tongues I’ve ever witnessed either in person or on film takes place in a very public worship service. This is not to say that people DON’T speak in tongues in private, but it is to say that what is seen in public services fails miserably to follow St. Paul’s guidelines. That, I think, is the root of many people’s distrust of the phenomenon. It so clearly flies in the face of St. Paul’s teachings, while claiming St. Paul as proof of the Biblical nature of it.

I agree with you that there is a place for every type of worship and in my opinion a regular mass is not the place for the Charismata. But if you go to a CCR Prayer Meeting that is definitely a place that you should expect it to occur.

Thanks for responding. I think this might be the longest speaking in tongues thread I’ve seen that hasn’t disinegrated into namecalling!

I agree with you on this. Most of us on this board are here to learn. There is no sense in getting offensive about it. Doesn’t do any good in my opinion. Anger and making people angry just closes the mind and hardens the heart. Nothing positive can occur afterwards.

 

[Lepanto]

God allowed the speaking of tongues in the old days because there was no internet yet.

Nowadays it’s probably a much rarer gift and only to be bestowed and used upon the most dire of needs.

Maybe so, but ironically YouTube is filled with people demonstrating their claims of speaking in tongues.

youtube.com/results?search_query=speaking+tongues&search_type=

 

[Lepanto]

But you cannot judge these other devotions as being bad because you dislike them. Like I said you have to look at the fruit.

Yes, we should judge their fruits. How else can we be sure that it’s not pride or emotion-driven gibberish? How else can we be sure that it’s not a manifestation of the Enemy?

We need to know these things, and those who make the claim of being able to speak in tongues need to demonstrate the source of their “charism.” We are under no obligation to believe that God has somehow selected them for some special gifts…

 

[e61iuser]

Maybe so, but ironically YouTube is filled with people demonstrating their claims of speaking in tongues.

youtube.com/results?search_query=speaking+tongues&search_type=

Creepy. I don’t know but I get a weird vibe in hearing this happen. I’m multi-lingual and I can discern a fair number of languages but the utterances of these people who claim that they’re “tongues” sound unstructured, unintelligible and give off the feeling that it’s not good. A normal language would somehow communicate a sense of “thought”, of a message that might be obscured in a different means of expression. This babbling just feels… mocking.

 

[ERose]

Yes, we should judge their fruits. How else can we be sure that it’s not pride or emotion-driven gibberish? How else can we be sure that it’s not a manifestation of the Enemy?

We need to know these things, and those who make the claim of being able to speak in tongues need to demonstrate the source of their “charism.” We are under no obligation to believe that God has somehow selected them for some special gifts…

And you can say the same for every single individual who claims to be Christian. You know a Christian by the fruit he/she produces. This isn’t exclusively set to single out the Charismatics and the fruit that they bear.

And no you are under no obligation to believe anything that God gives to others.

Do I agree with you that there are wolves in sheep clothing in the Charismatic Movement? Yes there has to be. But you can look thoughout the Church for evidence of these wolves.

 

[AngelRose81]

I think that sometimes its real and sometimes its not. But I also believe like Paul says that there must be an interpreter as well. What I think is fake is when some one says “ok, now lets pray in tongues” and everyone starts doing it and its not a recognizable language. If you have seen “Jesus Camp” you know what I’m talking about.

 

[Cari]

I have read and re-read 1 Corinthians 13, and then 14 for further context, and cannot see how it specifically endorses the theory that non-human languages are spoken of. “Tongue of Angels” is, as far as I can see, a metaphor.

Angels, being pure spirit, have no vocal chords, no tongue, no lips, and presumably, no need for language as we understand it. Every single case of angelic/human interaction in the Bible is marked by the angel communicating in the native speech of the human listener (even when singing and not simply speaking). As Catholics, we engage in a literal, not a literalist, reading of the Bible, and for the above mentioned reasons, I find it difficult, at best, to imagine that angels have their own language that the Holy Spirit would channel into humans.

I also fail to see how any sort of public speaking in tongues (human or non-human) build up the Church or follow St. Paul’s very clear guidelines on the subject. The private prayer life of each individual is, of course, a different matter, subject to different guidelines.

Having never been to a CCR prayer meeting, I cannot speak from any sort of authority about what goes on there. But I cannot help but wonder if this isn’t also a setting that would be subject to St. Paul’s rules for speaking in tongues?

 

[ERose]

I have read and re-read 1 Corinthians 13, and then 14 for further context, and cannot see how it specifically endorses the theory that non-human languages are spoken of. “Tongue of Angels” is, as far as I can see, a metaphor.

**Find the term Trinity or Incarnation in the Bible. What this gift is the spirit praying through you. This does not come from your mind or reason but rather from your spirit. **

Angels, being pure spirit, have no vocal chords, no tongue, no lips, and presumably, no need for language as we understand it. Every single case of angelic/human interaction in the Bible is marked by the angel communicating in the native speech of the human listener (even when singing and not simply speaking). As Catholics, we engage in a literal, not a literalist, reading of the Bible, and for the above mentioned reasons, I find it difficult, at best, to imagine that angels have their own language that the Holy Spirit would channel into humans.

I also fail to see how any sort of public speaking in tongues (human or non-human) build up the Church or follow St. Paul’s very clear guidelines on the subject. The private prayer life of each individual is, of course, a different matter, subject to different guidelines.

Having never been to a CCR prayer meeting, I cannot speak from any sort of authority about what goes on there. But I cannot help but wonder if this isn’t also a setting that would be subject to St. Paul’s rules for speaking in tongues?

Cari, I cannot force you to believe in this gift and quite honest it is not easy to explain it. It is something you have to experience. In my opinion it has been edifying to my spiritual life. Is it the only thing that I experience? No. I am very liturgical and meditative as well.

Are there abuses out there? Yes. Have some people become prideful because they had this gift? Yes. But the CCR is very important in my opinion to the evangelization of the Charismatic Christians out there. It is their transition into the Catholic Church. It was for me when I converted to Catholicism. I no longer go to the prayer meetings but it is not because of any adversion to them. We do not have a group in my parish and do not have the time to start one. But if you ask alot of former Charismatic Evangelical who are now Catholic you will discover that the CCR was their way into the Church.

There are a great many people in the CCR that are passionate Catholics who are more convervative in nature than liberal or traditionalist. Typically most of the CCR Catholics are actively involved in the parishes. So there is fruit.

 

[redrosetea]

I must be sort of dumb but why in the world would anyone be prideful about speaking in tongues?

It’s the last thing I would ever want to have happen to me…if it did I would never tell a soul…and I would pray for it to go away…

 

[jcrichton]

This seems to me as if it would counter any efforts to edify (or build up) the Church, which is something we are also called to do.

Hi, bugz!

This is a very specific point which they consciously ignore… I recall Jesus’ admonishions to those who “perform” in order to gain man’s acknowledgment and praise… they have already received their rewards!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I have read and re-read 1 Corinthians 13, and then 14 for further context, and cannot see how it specifically endorses the theory that non-human languages are spoken of. “Tongue of Angels” is, as far as I can see, a metaphor.

Angels, being pure spirit, have no vocal chords, no tongue, no lips, and presumably, no need for language as we understand it. Every single case of angelic/human interaction in the Bible is marked by the angel communicating in the native speech of the human listener (even when singing and not simply speaking). As Catholics, we engage in a literal, not a literalist, reading of the Bible, and for the above mentioned reasons, I find it difficult, at best, to imagine that angels have their own language that the Holy Spirit would channel into humans.

I also fail to see how any sort of public speaking in tongues (human or non-human) build up the Church or follow St. Paul’s very clear guidelines on the subject. The private prayer life of each individual is, of course, a different matter, subject to different guidelines.

Having never been to a CCR prayer meeting, I cannot speak from any sort of authority about what goes on there. But I cannot help but wonder if this isn’t also a setting that would be subject to St. Paul’s rules for speaking in tongues?

Hi, Cari!

…I think that what is happening is that they are combining the meaning of two passages from the Holy Scriptures:

If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (1 Corinthians 13:1)

26 Likewise, the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For, we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings, 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what the Spirit desireth: because he asketh for the saints according to God. (Romans 8:26-27)

Though it is true that angels are spirits… still, they communicate with God in one form or another (call it spiritual telepathy); combine this knowledge with what Paul reveals as the Holy Spirit’s praying for us in ways that only God can understand and we have a non-human communication… the tongue of angels or spiritual beigns…

Yet, I agree with you… there must be a direct correlation to speaking and tongues (other than human languages) and the building up of the Church; private revelations are just that! …to suggest that we must all pray (specially all at the same time) in tongues is reaching far beyond any Biblical need.

Sadly, we are creatures of habits… Christians often emulate the world as they follow “trends” and “fashions.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[pyropam]

Sometimes, some of you people really scare me. Some of the comments here seem close to blasphemy.

I would never call this “gibberish”!

I believe in it fully, although I do not speak in tongues. I have felt the power of God within the room while it is happening.

Be careful what you say and how you judge others. If it is real and they are speaking directly with God, then won’t you have to stand before him one day and beg his forgiveness?

If it isn’t real, then they are the ones who will beg before him.

Please do not judge what you haven’t experienced.