Speaking in Tongues.. (more on Charismatics) Karl can you respond?

[BenoIt]

Epiphania,
I read the story of the agnostic who became a priest. I can only surmise that this fairly tale has been written to gain some points.
God gave me an intellect to use, why then should He turn around and play those kind of games. That story puts St Augustine ‘take and read’ to shame.
God is in every event in every thought, there is no need to look for Him in ‘games’ of chance.
If that story is genuine, I would have difficulty to take such a priest seriously. I, at least, would have serious questions to ask him.

God bless.

 

[Veritas60]

Maybe I’m missing something here but my understanding
of the gift of tongues is that it was given to the apostles so that
they could spread the word of God to those who did not speak Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic,and be understood. That makes
sense…
To speak in tongues today among others who share a common
language, does not. It seems to be more of a sympton of PRIDE.
“Look at me, I have the gift of tongues” while everyone claps and shouts “Praise the Lord” and other very Protestant phrases without understanding a word of what’s issuing forth from the
speakers mouth.
What this has to do with spreading the word of God is beyond me. What it has to do with worshipping God is even less apparent.

 

[DougL]

Yes, speaking in tongues can give rise to pride in some, but pride can also keep others from seeking this good gift from God. It’s really a humbling gift in my experience (because it requires one to let go and just trust God), but humility is a lovely thing. It’s restful to know that the Holy Spirit is praying and worshipping through us in ways we might not do as well ourselves. Can we admit we want that? Can we admit there’s more to God than we now know and have? It’s easy to ask and receive the gift of tongues in faith. It won’t turn you into an irrational lunatic if that’s what you are afraid of. Nor will it make you an instant saint. You don’t have to speak in tongues to experience the Holy Spirit. But tongues is a wonderful gift. I’ve done it privately for almost 30 years. I don’t think it makes me an less an orthodox Catholic. I don’t go around thinking, “if everyone spoke in tongues, we’d have true Biblical Christianity again.”

 

[Agnes]

Another Keating, Fr. Thomas Keating, explains this and related topics beautifully in some of his books. The one I have is called “Open Mind, Open Heart: The Contemplative Dimension of the Gospel.” Just FYI.

 

[Sanosuke]

Benolt, Can love be understood through reason?

I really don’t have an opinion on the charismatic movement, as I have yet to a) meet anyone who was part of this movement, and b) had never heard of this movement before today. And yet, Benolt, as a man who has sought God through merely logical means, I can tell you without flinching that I failed miserably. I became a pretty mean, caustic skeptic for a long time (long, of course, is relative; I’m only 18 years old). After I heard a priest give a short account of his spiritual journey that I boldly asked God for a sign that He is real.

To make a long story short, this former agnostic/atheist is entering seminary next year. God is wonderful beyond reason, is He not? I won’t go into detail because, in the words of John, the world itself could not contain the books that would be written about it. I am still a very logic-oriented person today. However, I am no longer foolish enough to believe that my logic could begin to explain Him.

I read that priest’s story, and it almost does seem far-fetched. But then again, so do the Incarnation, the Resurrection, the Ascension, the Assumption, the Trinity, the Eucharist, and everything about Christianity. We cannot use our intellects to figure out how Jesus rose from the dead, how Jesus could have two natures at once, how Jesus and Mary are both in heaven in body and spirit, and the list goes on.

Do you want logic? Here it is: God is infinite love. Man cannot begin to comprehend infinity. Therefore, man cannot begin to comprehend God. I have no experience with charismatic Catholicism, and I have no idea if God really does work though something like that. However, I have no doubt that He could if He wanted to.

To end, I would like to use a little logic: God is infinite love. Man cannot begin to understand infinity or love. Therefore, man cannot begin to understand God. It seems logical to me.

 

[Duymara]

epiphania:

Check out this testimony…

chnetwork.org/efconv.htm

its about an agnost who became a priest…throws some light on tongues too…the way the Lord used the gift to move him to the church…

Blessings,
Leo

Truly beautiful, thank you for sharing this, I have passed it on.

mara

 

[Duymara]

BenoÎt:

Epiphania,
I read the story of the agnostic who became a priest. I can only surmise that this fairly tale has been written to gain some points.
God gave me an intellect to use, why then should He turn around and play those kind of games. That story puts St Augustine ‘take and read’ to shame.
God is in every event in every thought, there is no need to look for Him in ‘games’ of chance.
If that story is genuine, I would have difficulty to take such a priest seriously. I, at least, would have serious questions to ask him.

God bless.

God reaches us where we are, and it is different for everyone. only He knows how to reach us and touch our lives and only He knows what to do so that we will receive Him. It isn’t the same for everyone. I would not call what occured with ‘Ed’ as playing games. It seems to me God would not reach out to you in such a manner, but He did to Ed and for that we must just be thankful He brought Ed to Him.

mara

 

[epiphania]

BenoÎt:

Epiphania,
I read the story of the agnostic who became a priest. I can only surmise that this fairly tale has been written to gain some points.
God gave me an intellect to use, why then should He turn around and play those kind of games. That story puts St Augustine ‘take and read’ to shame.
God is in every event in every thought, there is no need to look for Him in ‘games’ of chance.
If that story is genuine, I would have difficulty to take such a priest seriously. I, at least, would have serious questions to ask him.

God bless.

Hi,
I can understand your views,but BenoÎt, God has different ways of working with different people and He uses different means in different circumstances.Opening the Bible like that is generally not so encouraged even within the charismatic movement…but didnt the apostles select Matthias by casting lots? Now, thats something similar right…? Today, I wouldnt use this method to make an important decision,but at that time, the Lord chose to work through this method! And He might use it in my life too!

You see in the old testament, the priests actually carried two dice called Ummim and Thummim (hope i spelt it right)…in their vestment - that is a symbol which showed that God was in control of their actions - for you cannot predict how the dice will fall. Hope this helps…

 

[Jessica]

This post is in response to Beng…

Thank you for responding in such depth to my post! I pray that the Holy Spirit will be with me as I clarify a few things you brought up.

First of all… when you said, “Saints who has this gift always has the advanced version where every people of every language could understand what they’re speaking. This is so unlike today charismatic who just blabbers.” In my experience, many of the Charismatics do speak in known languages that they have never learned, but many do not. However, in my research, the saints did not only speak in known tonuges, but in what you refer to as “babble” as well. I would recommend the book Sounds of Wonder on that topic. Did you actually research this, or did you just make that statement because you think it is true?

Second, you said, “The tongue will only build the church and proper use for Catholic prayer group or in church IF it’s interpreted. Something very lacking in hte Charismatic movement.
If the tongue is not interpreted, it’s of no use to the believers. So it probably shouldn’t be brought up in Church, prayer meeting etc.”

There is always an interpretation to the tongue, if the Holy Spirit gives it at a prayer meeting and it is spoken out loud. However, sometimes the person who receives the interpretation does not speak it out loud for the rest of the community (for reasons of shyness, embarassment, etc.). In these situations, the fault is the person’s who refused to interpret, not the person who spoke the Tongue. God always provides an interpretation, though.

In regards to your statement, “Don’t bother. Even St Augustine (THE GREAT FATHER AND DOCTOR OF THE CHURCH) said that we no longer need tongues (this is around the 4th century) because the church has become universal.” When did Augustine become infallible? To my knowledge, there were other Church fathers who did believe that Tongues still existed.

Lastly, I do pray the rosary, and I pray it with Charismatics. Actually, there was a time in my life when I prayed the rosary many times a day, and now that I have joined the Charismatic Movement, my desire to pray the rosary has only increased. However, you describe the rosary as the “ultimate prayer.” I thought the ultimate prayer was the Mass. Guess I must be a sadly mistaken Charismatic.

I pray the rosary with Charismatics, and I have attended Mass with Charismatics. They are firm believers in Christ, and most are loyal to the Church. There are some who are not, but I have found this number to be far less than the amount that I have encountered in many regular Churches that I’ve been to. Please do a little research on the Charismatic Movement, and I think you will find this to be true. I was very sceptical of it at first, but when I researched theology, talked with Charismatics, and prayed on it, I found that my criticism was unfounded and the Movement is full of love for Christ. I will pray the rosary for you, and hope you will do the same for me. God bless!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

snuffy:

Dear Fellow Catholics:
I am a Charismatic Catholic. Praise God!
Speaking in tongues to me is beautiful. It is the Holy Spirit helping us Praise our God, because our minds cannot come up with the proper words of praise for Our God.
I know many charasmatic Catholics, who are very Holy people.
Yes, some may use it for themselves, but all the people I know who are charismatic, use it for the building up of Christ.
When you speak in tongues (for me anyways) it is in Pure Love. It is Love that pours through me, as I praise the Lord.
Please don’t put people down for speaking in tongues. If more Catholics had the Holy Spirit our Church would be full of people who truly Love and Worship Our Lord.
Since I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, and truly understand what the gifts of the same Holy Spirit, My faith has tripled. I Love Jesus more, I Love the Holy Mass more, I Love the Bible more. Basically I Love (and understand) so much more about my faith.
It is truly awesome. Please don’t put God in a box. He wants to give His Church, soooo much more, if people would only be open to the Holy Spirit.

Praise God!!
Snuffy

So beautifully said Snuffy. God Bless

 

[Kristina_P]

(I posted this on the Charismatic Catholics thread as well).
Correct me if I’m wrong…but I don’t think having the ability to speak in an understandable language is the only form of tongues. Consider 1 Cor. 13:1:
If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
This implies that some people have been (and still are?) given the gift to speak in heavenly languages…I would say for the edification of the Church (when interpreted) and in private prayer (when one can not express a prayer in one’s own language?)—though I am not basing the second on Divine Revelation, but experience (not personal though…and I realize experience is secondary to Revelation).
1 Cor. 12:30 mentions the gift of interpretation…right after the gift of tongues…so there must be tongues that require interpretation (thus not understandable on their own). In 1 Cor. 14 this is further seen when Paul lays down guidelines for tongues…he insists that there must be interpreters, otherwise the gift does not edify anyone (when uttered in public) as it can not be understood. He also limited the number of ‘tongues’ messages to three per Mass. Vs. 23 further clarifies that this particular gift of tongues, unlike that seen at Pentecost, is not understood without a divine gift of interpretation to go along.

Perhaps there is something in the Catechism on this? Or is the Magisterium silent on the types of tongues?

Note that he says “tongues of men and of angels.” So, theoretically, at least someone out there speaks the language. Overwhelmingly, the writings of Paul contradict the beliefs of most people who put an emphasis on speaking in tongues. For example, in I Corinthians 12, he distinguishes between “gifts of healing” and “gifts of tongues.” The people the OP talked about seemed to be confusing these two gifts. It’s been my experience that many charismatics look on the gift of tongues as the greatest gift and seem to think it can substitute for all the other gifts. There are even charismatic protestants who believe that anyone who does not speak in tongues does not have the Holy Spirit and, therefore, isn’t saved. It certainly seems that many of these people are chasing after “experiences.” We must learn to practice discernment in the recognition and use of spiritual gifts.

 

[Kristina_P]

snuffy:

Dear Fellow Catholics:
I am a Charismatic Catholic. Praise God!
Speaking in tongues to me is beautiful. It is the Holy Spirit helping us Praise our God, because our minds cannot come up with the proper words of praise for Our God.
I know many charasmatic Catholics, who are very Holy people.
Yes, some may use it for themselves, but all the people I know who are charismatic, use it for the building up of Christ.
When you speak in tongues (for me anyways) it is in Pure Love. It is Love that pours through me, as I praise the Lord.
Please don’t put people down for speaking in tongues. If more Catholics had the Holy Spirit our Church would be full of people who truly Love and Worship Our Lord.
Since I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, and truly understand what the gifts of the same Holy Spirit, My faith has tripled. I Love Jesus more, I Love the Holy Mass more, I Love the Bible more. Basically I Love (and understand) so much more about my faith.
It is truly awesome. Please don’t put God in a box. He wants to give His Church, soooo much more, if people would only be open to the Holy Spirit.

Praise God!!
Snuffy

I’m glad that speaking in tongues has had a positive role in your relationship with God, and I would never presume to “put down” any spiritual gift.

I’m curious about your use of the phrase “baptized in the Holy Spirit.” Speaking in tongues has little to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. Scripture indicates that there are many spiritual gifts and that all of them are important for different reasons.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Kristina P.:

I’m glad that speaking in tongues has had a positive role in your relationship with God, and I would never presume to “put down” any spiritual gift.

I’m curious about your use of the phrase “baptized in the Holy Spirit.” Speaking in tongues has little to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. Scripture indicates that there are many spiritual gifts and that all of them are important for different reasons.

Please read Acts 10;44-46.Hope this helps your understanding. God Bless

 

[gusano]

Maybe I’m missing something here but my understanding
of the gift of tongues is that it was given to the apostles so that
they could spread the word of God

What this has to do with spreading the word of God is beyond me. What it has to do with worshipping God is even less apparent.

It has much to do with spreading the Word of God and profoundly much more with Worshipping God as God deserves.
But it is meant to be hardly apparent.

It hadn’t been very long since I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit when I had to take my son to the Hospital.
As I was filling out Insurance forms a young Indian man was brought in to Emergency by a young woman and an older man.
The young man came to the counter where I was and leaned on both elbows as his left elbow touched my right elbow.
I looked into hie eyes and his countenance was like that of a caged frightened wild cat…sweat pouring from his face.
As I could see into his eyes My thought was “This man’s mind is somewhere beyond Pluto” he is not himself.
Suddenly he went in behind the counter where Doctors and nurses were working , vewing x-rays, etc. He began to shout
as he ripped elec. cords knocked over equipment, and generally destroyed the place as I could see the paralyzed faces of The people working there. …he was shouting;
"What is the matter whith you people ? It is all over, we are in eternity now ! …all this is worthless !..everyone was frozen with fear.
I mumbled under my breath; “What, if anything, am I supposed to do, Lord ?”
"Find out what manner of spirit is in him" came an immediate reply… I offered my right hand in friendship to him
and he took it.
“Lets go outside,” I said as I pulled him by the hand…when we were outside I was Prompted to ask him;
“Now that it is all over, tell me, … How do you feel about Jesus Christ ?”
He twisted his face into a snarl and responded;
“I repudiate him!” (I had no clue what “repudiate” meant but by his face I knew it was not good.)

over a 4 ft. concrete ledge next to us he leaned over and looked at me and at the rocks 2 floors below , I did not know what he was thinking so I invited him back inside. he agreed.
as we entered, he spun a wheel chair around and said to me “Get in it .” …I said “No, You get in it”. so he sat in it and I wheeled him in.
The Young lady came and asked to take over the job of pushing his wheelchair… as she began to wheel him around…
The Spirit said to me, “Command the evil spirit to come out of him.” and I said; “I can’t do that, I have never done any of that stuff !”
The Spirit prompted me several times and I weaseled out out of it due to lack of experience,
“They will think I am trying to be another Oral Roberts” was my excuse.

In the meantime he was reaching back unbuttoning her blouse trying to get inside as she fought him off and pushed the wheelchair…very frustrating and awkward for her, I could see.
The poor lady was embarrassed as she was more and more being disrobed by this handsome but out of control Indian.
The Spirit said to me**“Place your left hand on his head and pray in tongues, mysteries in the Spirit to your Father,”**
What? I said, “Then they will think I am really wacko!”
The Spirit said; “No they wont, they will think it is one indian talking to another.” (I am mostly Spanish with some Apache)
I said "OH !.. I can do that (with my small experience of “speaking in tongues”

I ,with no qualms, put my left hand on his head as I prayed to The Living God…In a language I have no knowledge of.
As I was Praying he said; “You tell God I don’t want to do that.”
"Did you understand what I was saying ? " i asked
“Every word of it.” he responded.
Then I suddenly got this awesome boldness and added my Right hand over his head and In English Commanded Satan in the Name of Jesus Christ to get out for ever. I claimed this man for the Kingdom of God and prayed the Blood of Christ to guard him from this moment on for all eternity.

The man went completely still.
as when the air is let out of a baloon completely, I thought he went unconscous, he was not, he had a normal human being look in his eyes, I would say he looked Humble and Prayerful.

They had called the police and 3 came in while everything was now quiet.
one minute earlier they would have seen a Zoo.

I am now a firm Believer in this wonderful Gift of tongues and it is not about me, It is about THE GIVER.
It is about The Awesome Lord who gives us gifts so we can do what He commands us, and worship Him as He deserves.

gusano

 

[Kristina_P]

SPOKENWORD:

Please read Acts 10;44-46.Hope this helps your understanding. God Bless

Are you saying that those who don’t speak in tongues haven’t received the Holy Spirit? Because that was the view I was objecting to.

 

[Matt16_18]

Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to human beings but to God, for no one listens; he utters mysteries in spirit.
1Corinthians 14:1-2

 

[Matt16_18]

James_2:24:

I still think this means normally understandable languages.

You are mistaken.

The only way to really understand anything about speaking in tongues is through the experience of speaking in tongues. Until one does that, this gift of the Holy Spirit will always be a mystery to mere human reasoning. And until one knows something about this gift of the Holy Spirit, it is best to keep silent and to not quench the Holy Spirit through obstinate doubt and mockery.

 

[Matt16_18]

Kristina P.:

Are you saying that those who don’t speak in tongues haven’t received the Holy Spirit? Because that was the view I was objecting to.

We receive the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Baptism. The gift of tongues is a charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit, not a sanctifying gift of the Holy Spirit. Obviously not all validly baptized Catholics have the charismatic gift of tongues.

 

[Kristina_P]

Matt16_18:

We receive the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Baptism. The gift of tongues is a charismatic gift of the Holy Spirit, not a sanctifying gift of the Holy Spirit. Obviously not all validly baptized Catholics have the charismatic gift of tongues.

That is my view as well.

 

[Joe_Sarto]

snuffy:

Dear Fellow Catholics:
I am a Charismatic Catholic. Praise God!
Speaking in tongues to me is beautiful. It is the Holy Spirit helping us Praise our God, because our minds cannot come up with the proper words of praise for Our God.
I know many charasmatic Catholics, who are very Holy people.
Yes, some may use it for themselves, but all the people I know who are charismatic, use it for the building up of Christ.
When you speak in tongues (for me anyways) it is in Pure Love. It is Love that pours through me, as I praise the Lord.
Please don’t put people down for speaking in tongues. If more Catholics had the Holy Spirit our Church would be full of people who truly Love and Worship Our Lord.
Since I was baptized in the Holy Spirit, and truly understand what the gifts of the same Holy Spirit, My faith has tripled. I Love Jesus more, I Love the Holy Mass more, I Love the Bible more. Basically I Love (and understand) so much more about my faith.
It is truly awesome. Please don’t put God in a box. He wants to give His Church, soooo much more, if people would only be open to the Holy Spirit.

Praise God!!
Snuffy

Over the past 2,000 years, have any of our Popes EVER publicly recommended the practice of speaking in tongues? The answer to that question should tell you something…