Speaking in Tongues.. (more on Charismatics) Karl can you respond?

[Church_Militant]

Elzee:

Excellent point. I’ve been to a Charismatic Mass and there were many times throughout the Mass when the Mass was essentially stopped as people prayed in tongues - especially during the consecration. This got me wondering…is this solely the work of the Holy Spirit, or can someone control whether or not they pray in tongues, say, during the consecration or elevations? Or, are they so much under the power of the Spirit that they have no ‘choice’?

This is a very important point Elzee!! As if I was some Sola Scriptura advocate, I will turn to the Word of God for our answers.

1st Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

No one can argue with this verse. What does it say? That we do indeed never lose control and contribute to disorder with in the church by the power of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who says different is simply not obeying the Word of God concerning this very topic in the New Testament.

Now if they are disobedient in this then where does their message come from…who is the author of their utterances?

The very next verse in 1st Cor. 14 answers this question for us… 1st Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints. and the NAB says it even more plainly. 33 since he is not the God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the holy ones,

To disrupt the consecration at Mass is purely disobedience and sacrilege, and should never be tolerated by the celebrant. I would never hang around something like that.

It is a non-Catholic error that has crept into Catholic practice and should not have.

I urge every one who reads this thread to carefully and prayerfully read 1st Corinthians chapters 12, 13, & 14, to get a solid foundation for what the New Testament teaches concerning these gifts and to NEVER settle for anything that is not in line with what you find there, regardless of what any “spirit-filled” “Charismatic” or “Pentecostal” might say to attempt to excuse or justify that disorder. It’s just not right any other way.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

**Sure I can. **

The Lord desires to give us His gifts. Holy Scriptures clearly state that we are to seek after His Gifts.Because some have abused Gods gifts you seem to think they have no value in the church body.Your attitude should be :Lord here I am. I am open to recieve whatever gifts you have for me. You see you have no desire for this Gift and God will never go against your will. You end up losing out because you were not open. I feel saddened .Every Gift from above is to be treasured. God BlessThen do so! I don’t see even one cited passage of scripture here. Show us!

As for your assumptions concerning my own experiences. You presume to know what I think and what is in my heart and of course you are way off, but that is NOT relevent to the topic of this thread.

Please substantiate all these assertions of yours with passages of New Testament scripture which plainly support what you have said here. If you cannot, then I would suggest that you are possibly in error. But please: Feel free to prove me wrong… :bible1:
Pax tecum,

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

This is a very important point Elzee!! As if I was some Sola Scriptura advocate, I will turn to the Word of God for our answers.

1st Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

No one can argue with this verse. What does it say? That we do indeed never lose control and contribute to disorder with in the church by the power of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who says different is simply not obeying the Word of God concerning this very topic in the New Testament.

Now if they are disobedient in this then where does their message come from…who is the author of their utterances?

The very next verse in 1st Cor. 14 answers this question for us… 1st Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints. and the NAB says it even more plainly. 33 since he is not the God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the holy ones,

To disrupt the consecration at Mass is purely disobedience and sacrilege, and should never be tolerated by the celebrant. I would never hang around something like that.

It is a non-Catholic error that has crept into Catholic practice and should not have.

I urge every one who reads this thread to carefully and prayerfully read 1st Corinthians chapters 12, 13, & 14, to get a solid foundation for what the New Testament teaches concerning these gifts and to NEVER settle for anything that is not in line with what you find there, regardless of what any “spirit-filled” “Charismatic” or “Pentecostal” might say to attempt to excuse or justify that disorder. It’s just not right any other way.
Pax vobiscum,

Our God is a God of order and not confusion.Of course we are subject to the Prophet.What seems to be a disorder to you may be a mighty move of the Holy Spirit.Thats why every Spirit needs to be tested. I have personally in the past have attended countless masses and have never witnessed any abuse of these gifts during the consecration.What I have witnessed is the presence of the Holy Spirit at work. Its to bad you have a problem with Gods Gifts. God Bless

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

Are you saying I belong to a Cult? God Bless

It certainly sounds that way…
No scripture citations.
The assertion that no one who does not speak in tongues can understand all this, thus (again) implying that believers who do not speak in tongues are some sort of 2nd class Christians, which is definitely NOT supported by anything in the Word of God.

In fact…if memory serves me right, tongues is basically a very low level gift of the Spirit and there are many that the passages that I cited say are more useful to the Body of Christ.

Disorder is NEVER useful to the Body of Christ, but it certainly can serve the world, the flesh, and the devil.

1st Thessalonians 5:21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Pax tecum,

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

For they heard them speaking in languages and praising God.
languages

Read in word pictures quote above from ein to susposable.

But from Acts 10:46 based on sharps’ rule, they heard them praising God in other known human lanuages. Those who heard them used natural means to know what they were saying.

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

Our God is a God of order and not confusion.Of course we are subject to the Prophet.

What seems to be a disorder to you may be a mighty move of the Holy Spirit.Thats why every Spirit needs to be tested. I have personally in the past have attended countless masses and have never witnessed any abuse of these gifts during the consecration.What I have witnessed is the presence of the Holy Spirit at work. Its to bad you have a problem with Gods Gifts. God BlessAgain…your assumption, not in evidence. I recommend that you not attempt to speculate on my thinking on this topic.

But that is not what the Word of God says.
1st Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. (Emphasis mine)

There is NEVER any scriptural basis for any loss of control by the people with these gifts…not from the Holy Spirit anyway…

You still have not provided any scriptural evidence to support what you have so far said. If I were you…that would be my priority…if such exists.
Pax tecum,

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

pfrs.org/sharp.html

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

Then do so! I don’t see even one cited passage of scripture here. Show us!

As for your assumptions concerning my own experiences. You presume to know what I think and what is in my heart and of course you are way off, but that is NOT relevent to the topic of this thread.

Please substantiate all these assertions of yours with passages of New Testament scripture which plainly support what you have said here. If you cannot, then I would suggest that you are possibly in error. But please: Feel free to prove me wrong… :bible1:
Pax tecum,

St. Paul tells us that we are to eagerly desire spiritual gifts(1Corinth14;1). He also wishes that we all speak in tongues(1Corinth14;5) And in Mark 16;17 And these signs will accompany those who believe,they will speak in new tongues.I can continue if you want more. God Bless

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

St. Paul tells us that we are to eagerly desire spiritual gifts(1Corinth14;1). He also wishes that we all speak in tongues(1Corinth14;5) And in Mark 16;17 And these signs will accompany those who believe,they will speak in new tongues.I can continue if you want more. God Bless

By all means carry on

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I think Michaels’ suggestion to read I cor 12-14 should be followed before posting anymore in this thread.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

It certainly sounds that way…
No scripture citations.
The assertion that no one who does not speak in tongues can understand all this, thus (again) implying that believers who do not speak in tongues are some sort of 2nd class Christians, which is definitely NOT supported by anything in the Word of God.

In fact…if memory serves me right, tongues is basically a very low level gift of the Spirit and there are many that the passages that I cited say are more useful to the Body of Christ.

Disorder is NEVER useful to the Body of Christ, but it certainly can serve the world, the flesh, and the devil.

1st Thessalonians 5:21 But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Pax tecum,

How can you say Gods gift of tongues have a very low level. Not according to St. Paul. Read1 Corinth 14;5. You seem to overlook the word UNLESS. God Bless

 

[Church_Militant]

SPOKENWORD:

How can you say Gods gift of tongues have a very low level. Not according to St. Paul. Read1 Corinth 14;5. You seem to overlook the word UNLESS. God Bless

Context, context, CONTEXT…

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

Context, context, CONTEXT…

I Corinth 14;5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,but I would rather you prohesy. He that prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues UNLESS he interprets,so that the church may be edified. So C.M Which gift is greater according to St. Paul? God Bless

 

[Matt16_18]

taustin:

I am sincerely interested in this. How do you know this? or, what is the source of your testimony?

EWTN: Charismatic Renewal **

Ecclesiastical Acknowledgements**

The Charismatic Renewal as a movement within the Catholic Church has been acknowledged by two Popes, Paul VI and John Paul II. Speaking to the International Conference on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal on May 19, 1975, Pope Paul VI encouraged the attendees in their renewal efforts and especially to remain anchored in the Church.

This authentic desire to situate yourselves in the Church is the authentic sign of the action of the Holy Spirit … How could this ‘spiritual renewal’ not be a chance for the Church and the world? And how, in this case could one not take all the means to ensure that it remains so… Pope John Paul II, for his part, has been more explicit. Speaking to a group of international leaders of the Renewal on December 11, 1979, he said, I am convinced that this movement is a very important component of the entire renewal of the Church.
Noting that since age 11 he had said a daily prayer to the Holy Spirit he added,This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.​

 

[Matt16_18]

From the pamphlet "The Catholic Experience of Renewal:, by Fr. Tom Foster, S.J, Bishop’s Liason to the Charismatic Renewal Diocese of San Jose:The Charismatic Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12: 5-11)

Collectively these gifts are for the building up of God’s people – gifts through which God gives understanding about himself and the Christian walk; wisdom, knowledge, and discernment. Gifts through which God acts in his community; faith, healing and miracles. And gifts through which God speaks to his people; prophecy, tongues and interpretation of tongues.

WISDOM: The gift by which the Holy Spirit directs a person to make the right decision or judgement and to live a true Christian life. Generally most Catholics acknowledge this gift by praying for the Light of the Spirit.

**KNOWLEDGE: ** The gift by which the Spirit gives a person a deeper understanding of a Mystery of Faith or specific knowledge that could not be known, unless God revealed it. Many priests experience this gift in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

FAITH: This gift inspires a person to pray with God given confidence, knowing what is asked for will be granted. This should not be confused with the virtue of faith (believing Christian truths).

Jesus told his disciples that “whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up an thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but believes that will happen, it shall be done for him.” (Mark 11:23)
**
HEALING:** This is the one gift which Catholics accept in the lives of the saints, but find difficult to accept in the lives of ordinary Christians. This gift speeds up the natural healing powers of the body. Jesus healed many who came to him, for example, Peter’s mother-in-law.
**
MIRACLES:** This gift is different from healing in that it does not depend on the laws of nature. An example of a miracle, or mighty deed, is the raising of Lazarus from the dead.

PROPHECY: This is a gift by which God, through a person, speaks a message to an individual or to the whole Christian community. It is God making use of someone, to state what He thinks about the present situation; what His intention is for the future; or what He thinks they should know or be mindful of right now. It is not primarily or necessarily a prediction of the future. St. Paul says, “One who prophesies does speak to human beings, for their building up, encouragement, and solace.” (1 Cor. 14:3)

DISCERNMENT OF SPIRITS: Through this gift one senses the presence of good and evil spirits. Many experience a form of discernment when meeting people. Some people come across as loving and good; others radiate negative aspects. Primarily, this gift discerns the presence of the Holy Spirit.

**TONGUES: ** Catholic Charismatics believe that God gives the gift of praying in an “unknown tongue” to anyone who seeks it. The person is able to speak this new language of praise of God, even though the individual does not understand what is being said. Actually, it is the Spirit of God within the heart praying. In the Book of Romans, St. Paul says, “the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings. And the one who searches the hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God’s will.” (Romans 8:26-27). This gift of tongues is mentioned fifty-seven times in the New Testament!

INTERPRETATION OF TONGUES: Occasionally, a member of the assembly will speak out some message in tongues. This utterance will be accompanied by an interpretation of its contents. Tongues and interpretation, St. Paul tells us, are the equivalent to the gift of prophecy.

 

[Matt16_18]

SPOKENWORD:

I Corinth 14;5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,but I would rather you prohesy. He that prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues UNLESS he interprets,so that the church may be edified. So C.M Which gift is greater according to St. Paul? :

Prophecy is the greater gift. Some people posting to this thread apparently don’t understand that sometimes the gift of prophesy is given to the community by one person speaking in tongues and another person interpreting what was spoken. Paul admonishes the Corinthians to be orderly when they are speaking in tongues that need the gift of interpretation when they are gathered together as a community. Only one person at a time should speaking in prophetic tongues, while another one interprets what was spoken. This way the community will receive the prophetic word that God desires to give to the community. If everyone is speaking in tongues that require interpretation at the same time, then the prophetic word that is given by God will be lost in the confusion.

Many times in Catholic charismatic prayer groups, the charismatics will not be speaking in prophetic tongues, they will be praying in praise tongues, something that does not require an interpretation, because praising in tongues is not a prophetic utterance from the Spirit. There are many, many ways (not just two ways) that people speak in the gift of tongues. The gift of speaking in prophetic tongues that need an interpretation is not the same gift as giving glory to God in praise tongues, nor is it the same gift of speaking in the type of tongues that one uses for deliverance from evil spirits.

Praying in praise tongues is the exception to the general rule that the charismatic gifts are primarily given for the building up of the Body of Christ. Praying in praise tongues can be a means of receiving sanctifying grace, since praise and worship of God is a means by which we are sanctified.

 

[Maranajewell]

After reading through the majority of these posts, I still have not arriven to any conclusion as to the matter of tongues as we popularily know of them today. I am a Catholic who used to be Pentecostal. I have spoken in tongues or at least I think I have, it may have just been me. This used to be a main issue in my life as to whether I really had the Holy Spirit or not…and it used to torment me. Upon converting to the Catholic Church, I can happily say that I no longer am tormented by this issue. I don’t know if its real or not even to this day. I am reluctant to criticize it but I am equally reluctant to support or embrace it. I don’t feel I need to anymore. This is definately not even a major issue in our Church either as I see it. The major crisis in our Church today is not following the teachings we have received from the Church. How many Catholics really know and understand their faith? Most on these forums do I think, but what about the overall majority? The root of the problem is in the teaching and passing down of the faith and living Christ-centered lives…something I still aspire to. -maranjewell

 

[Kristina_P]

Matt16_18:

Prophecy is the greater gift. Some people posting to this thread apparently don’t understand that sometimes the gift of prophesy is given to the community by one person speaking in tongues and another person interpreting what was spoken. Paul admonishes the Corinthians to be orderly when they are speaking in tongues that need the gift of interpretation when they are gathered together as a community. Only one person at a time should speaking in prophetic tongues, while another one interprets what was spoken. This way the community will receive the prophetic word that God desires to give to the community. If everyone is speaking in tongues that require interpretation at the same time, then the prophetic word that is given by God will be lost in the confusion.

Many times in Catholic charismatic prayer groups, the charismatics will not be speaking in prophetic tongues, they will be praying in praise tongues, something that does not require an interpretation, because praising in tongues is not a prophetic utterance from the Spirit. There are many, many ways (not just two ways) that people speak in the gift of tongues. The gift of speaking in prophetic tongues that need an interpretation is not the same gift as giving glory to God in praise tongues, nor is it the same gift of speaking in the type of tongues that one uses for deliverance from evil spirits.

Praying in praise tongues is the exception to the general rule that the charismatic gifts are primarily given for the building up of the Body of Christ. Praying in praise tongues can be a means of receiving sanctifying grace, since praise and worship of God is a means by which we are sanctified.

Thank you for this post. Do you agree that the New Testament admonishes those who are praying in tongues, without an interpreter, to keep quiet, pray in the Spirit, and not disturb others in the assembly (I Cor. 14:28)? So much of this debate could be cleared up if everyone would just read I Cor. 14.

 

[gusano]

Thanks for sharing your testimony!
[/quote]

Thanks Matt16-18,
It is a priviledge and a pleasure.
Thank you for welcoming it.

“I was a stranger and you welcomed me…”

God bless…

gusano

 

[gusano]

Church Militant:

SW,
You cannot support that opinion from the Word of God.
The Word of God says;“Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues…” 1 Cor. 14: 5

I personally think that these gifts have been far far overrated

by people who want some sort of emotional rush in their religious experience.
How about “Quenched” (1Thess. 5: 19)… by people who want their religious experience to be bland, cold, dry, saltless, uninteresting, boring, powerless, fruitless, etc, etc.

Having been a deacon in an Assembly of God church for many yearsI saw services where it was like a circus

or like a contest to see who could come off as most “spiritual”, and it was shameful.
Again and againI saw where Charismatics/Pentecostals let disorder reign in the services in clear violation of the Word of God. If that is the case then I have to wonder who the source really is. Not necessarily the devil, though that is certainly possible in any supernatural occurance, but it might also be the result of yielding to the flesh and the ego, something the NT warns us against.
I have seen young boys steal gasoline from where-ever they could, Once they mistakenly siphoned diesel fuel and put it in their car, Everywhere that car went, a huge white cloud trailed behind it ! It was embarrassing and shameful!
Because of that… no one should be allowed to fill their own tank…ever !

Personally, I think the whole thing is way over rated and in many cases some people seem to think there is something lacking in the believer who does not speak in tongues.

I have prayed in tongues in the past as well as been used by God for other gifts, but I am not a “Charismatic Catholic”, though I know some good ones. I do not like the rampant emotionalism and disorder of a service where the NT is not followed concerning the expression of these gifts.

If I was to desire such gifts, I would much prefer that I express them as St. Francis and St. Clare of Assisi did.
Pax vobiscum,

There is something lacking in a believer who REFUSES The gift of Tongues…**An intimate, Loving, Prayerfull Relationship with God.

“I have Come to cast fire upon the earth and how I would that it were already ablaze !” **

A good indicator that one needs “A Prayer Language (Tongues)” is to Look at
your Testimony.
Your Witnessing.
Your Prayer-life.
Your Worship.
Your Fellowship.
Your Message.
Your Vision.

Pick any ONE.

gusano