Speaking in Tongues.. (more on Charismatics) Karl can you respond?

[gusano]

Daniel Marsh:

my brother, The grammar of I Cor 13:1 for “if” is of the nature “if it were possible **and it is not **” and thus rules out the possiblity of speaking a heavenly language as does Paul in II Cor 12.

Don’t forget…"Nothing is impossible with God…"

Paul’s Vision and His Thorn
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

chairsmatics must read into the text, to get the possiblity of speaking in an unknown heavenly langauage in I cor 13.

We can not go there
but
God or his Angel can visit us.

gusano

 

[gusano]

Church Militant:

spoken the very same way that any cult member would.

That is a very cheap shot C.M.,
Saint paul says it not too different from SPOKENWORD like this;

" The natural man does not accept what is taught by the Spirit of God.
For him, that is absurdity.
He can not come to know such teaching because it must be appraised in a spiritual way."

Hmmmmm…now let me see,

was he a cult member ?


gusano

 

[jax8686]

Addition to JPII’s Tongues Opinion:

The Apostolic Exhortation Christi fideles Laici also stressed the “no charism dispenses a person from reference and submission to the Pastors of the Church.” These norms of prudence are easily understandable and apply to all, both clerics and lay people.

That having been said, we would like to repeat with the Council and the Exhortation cited above the “charisms should be received in gratitude both on the part of the one who receives them, and also on the part of the entire Church.” For these charisms there arises “for each of the faithful the right and duty of exercising them for the good of men and for building up the Church.” [Pope John Paul II, General Audience, March 9, 1994]

theworkofgod.org/Library/Joseph/H_Spirit5.htm

The Church constantly returns to the Upper Room, where she was born and where her mission began. The Church needs to return there, where the Apostles, after the Lord’s Resurrection, were filled with the Holy Spirit, receiving the gift of tongues in order to proclaim in the midst of the peoples and nations of the world the great things done by God (cf. Acts 2:11).

catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0264st.htm

As John Paul II reminded us at the Pentecost 98 gathering in St Peter’s the charismatic dimension of the Church is co-essential to its hierarchical dimension and we should all open ourselves “docilely to the gifts of the Spirit! Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us.” This is not for ourselves but for the good of the Church and the world. And John of the Cross can help us exercise these gifts more fruitfully. The contemplative and the charismatic are complementary not contradictory.

ccr.org.uk/gn0511/g01.htm

For the Holy Spirit falls on the just and the unjust - saints and sinners. Like Abel and Cain, they each worship God, and like Pope John Paul II each may have the “initial evidence” of speaking with other tongues.

biblebelievers.org.au/bb980513.htm
Definitely not the nicest way of putting it, but still says the same thing

 

[Church_Militant]

Okay Gusano,

Lemme just point out (again) that you have pulled verses and parts of verses out of their context in order to support your position.

You even failed to carry on the quote from St. Paul which says.
5 And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth, than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification. (1st Cor 14:5) What does Paul really say here? Unless a message in tongues is interpretted, it is better to prophesy.

How about “Quenched” (1Thess. 5: 19)… by people who want their religious experience to be bland, cold, dry, saltless, uninteresting, boring, powerless, fruitless, etc, etc.

If this is your opinion of the Mass without tongues then there is something wrong with your perception of the Mass. Futher, if these expressions of the gifts of the spirit disrupt the Mass then they are flat out abuses and someone needs to get right with God about it, not scandalize the rest of the Body of Christ with out of context teachings that wink at the problem.

Your gas thief analogy is actually irrelevent, in part (again) because you (and SW) are attempting to imply something concerning my spiritual state and what I am saying that is not at all in evidence here.

So… just for the record here, since you seem to have missed the diaconate in the A/G church comments and what they mean, I’ll spell it all out for you guys.

I have prayed in tongues.
I have prophesied (and still do) without tongues.
I have interpretted tongues.
I have also discerned when they are not of the Holy Spirit.

I do not pray in tongues anymore and do not miss it, unless you consider my Latin prayers tongues.
I do not consider myself a “Charismatic Catholic”.
I do not attend Charismatic services because I don’t feel any need.

I am not saying that they are not of God. Some are, some aren’t.
I do feel that many times there is gross disorder in the Charismatic/Penetcostal services that need to be disciplined by the clergy.
I also think that Charismatics make a bigger deal of their gifts and often imply (as you and SW have done to me) that anyone who is not involved in this is somehow less useful to the Body of Christ or “carnal” which is not at all in evidence, either in the Word of God or in practical experience.

This part of your own post is a good example I think:

There is something lacking in a believer who REFUSES The gift of Tongues…An intimate, Loving, Prayerfull Relationship with God.

I have already shown that I have not “refused” anything. Perhaps I have outgrown the need for it. That is certainly supported by Paul’s writings in this matter.

Your scripture citation is also exemplary of just what I mean about pulling things out of context to support yourself. That verse (Luke 12:49) has absolutely ZERO to do with the gifts of the spirit. It is actually from a passage in which Jesus is speaking of the end of the world. I suggest to all reading this thread that you read that chapter for yourself to see what it means in context.

A good indicator that one needs “A Prayer Language (Tongues)” is to Look at
your Testimony. Is just fine thanks. Read it HERE

Your Witnessing. Regular and consistent soul winning, thanks
Your Prayer-life. The very best it’s ever been. Vital, intimate, and with powerful answers. Thanks Be To God! :irish1:
Your Worship. Deep, and beautiful and filled with joy and tears and praise and thanksgiving.
Your Fellowship. Constant, compassionate, honest and loving and very Catholic.
Your Message. Salvation through Christ and His church
Your Vision. Faithfully persevering to the end.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Church_Militant]

gusano:

That is a very cheap shot C.M.,
Saint paul says it not too different from SPOKENWORD like this;

" The natural man does not accept what is taught by the Spirit of God.
For him, that is absurdity.
He can not come to know such teaching because it must be appraised in a spiritual way."

Hmmmmm…now let me see,

was he a cult member ?


gusanoIs that or is that not one of the standard replies that cult members offer to those outside their group who offer criticism of any kind?

Is not Charismatic/Pentecostalism a “cult” or sect of Christianity in about the same way as are those that are devoted to the Blessed Virgin? As with all cults, there are some problems. That’s nothing new

You guys imply again and again that those of us who do not share your interest or “gifts” are somehow less spiritual than those who are. So I’m actually glad that you brought up that verse (again, out of its context) from 1st Corinthians 2:14. Again, I urge every one to read the entire passage for context and in fact it would be best to read the chapters either side of it as well. (We’re gonna wind up having read the entire letter of 1st Corinthians, and that is not a bad thing at all! )

My remark:

Originally Posted by Church Militant

spoken the very same way that any cult member would.was by no means meant as a cheap shot, but simply to point out the fallacy of the “You-can’t understand-this-if-you aren’t-one-of-us” mentality and again, to point up the assertion (at least implied by SW’s remarks to me, and I know him better than many here on CAF and other forums BTW) that to bring up these cautions and concerns is somehow the mark of one who lacks the fullness of the Holy Spirit, His gifts, or is just a “carnal Christian”.

The fact that you guys have chosen to respond with such heat makes me think that perhaps I have hit something too near the mark since you seem to “protest too much” as the saying goes.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

based on the following maybe we can speak a heavenly language.

From the Testament of Job,
earlyjewishwritings.com/testjob.html

Chapter 12

1 After these three had finished singing hymns. did I Nahor (Neros) brother of Job sit down next to him, as he lay down. 2 And I heard the marvelous (great) things of the three daughters of my brother, one always succeeding the other amidst awful silence. 3 And I wrote down this book containing the hymns except the hymns and signs of the [holy] Word, for these were the great things of God. 4 And Job lay down from sickness on his couch, yet without pain and suffering, because his pain did not take strong hold of him on account of, the charm of the girdle which he had wound around himself. 5 But after three days Job saw the holy angels come for his soul, and instantly he rose and took the cithara and gave it to his daughter Day (Yemima). 6 And to Kassia he gave a censer (with perfume = Kassia, and to Amalthea’s horn (= music) he gave a timbrel in order that they might bless the holy angels who came for his soul.
**
7 And they took these, and sang, and played on the psaltery and praised and glorified God in the holy dialect.
**
8 And after this he came He who sitteth upon the great chariot and kissed Job, while his three daughters looked on, but the others saw it not. 9 And He took the soul of Job and He soared upward, taking her (the soul) by the arm and carrying her upon the chariot, and He went towards the East. 10 His body, however, was brought to the grave while the three daughters marched ahead, having put on their girdles and singing hymns in praise of God.

11 Then held Nahor (Nereos) his brother and his seven sons, with the rest of the people and the poor, the orphans and the feeble ones, a great mourning over him, saying:

12 "Woe unto us, for today has been taken from us the strength of the feeble, the light of the blind, the father of the orphans;

13 The receiver of strangers has been taken off the leader of the erring, the cover of the naked. the shield of the widows. Who would not mourn for the man of God! 14 And as they were mourning in this and in that form, they would not suffer him to be put into the grave. 15 After three days, however, he was finally put into the grave, like one in sweet slumber, and he received the name of the good (beautiful) who will remain renowned throughout all generations of the world.

16 He left seven sons and three daughters, and there were no daughters found on earth as fair as the daughters of Job. 17 The name of Job was formerly Jobab, and he was called Job by the Lord. 18 He had lived before his plague eighty five years, and after the plague he took the double share of all; hence also his year’s he doubled, which is 170 years. Thus he lived altogether 255 years. 19 And, he saw sons of his sons unto the fourth generation. It is written that he will rise up with those whom the Lord will reawaken. To our Lord by glory. Amen.

wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/noncanon/ot/pseudo/test-job.htm

Lets not forget the purpose of the gifts,

Ephesians 4:12-14

12He did it so that they might prepare God’s people to serve. If they do, the body of Christ will be built up.

13That will continue until we all become one in the faith and in the knowledge of God's Son. Then we will be grown up in the faith. We will receive everything that Christ has for us. 

14We will no longer be babies in the faith. We won't be like ships tossed around by the waves. We won't be blown here and there by every new teaching. We won't be blown around by the cleverness and tricks of people who try to hide their evil plans.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Let’s not forget that Paul was writting to correct errors in this church that put an overemphesis on speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians
Outline of Book

REPLY TO CHLOE’S REPORT (Ch. 1-6)
Divisions (Ch. 1-4)
Moral and Ethical Problems (Ch. 5-6)
Incest (Ch. 5)
Lawsuits (Ch. 6:1-11)
Sexual Immorality (Ch. 6:12-20)

REPLY TO CORINTHIAN’S LETTER (Ch. 7-16)
Marriage (Ch. 7)
Food Offered to Idols (Ch. 8-10)
Worship (Ch. 11-14)
Head Coverings (Ch. 11:2-16)
Lord’s Supper (Ch. 11:17-34)
Spiritual Gifts (Ch. 12-14)
Resurrection (Ch. 15)

Concluding Matters (Ch. 16)

abu.nb.ca/ecm/Cor10o.htm

The corinthan’s were not exactly a model church. They were engaged in worldly wisdom that led to sin. They denied the bodily ressurrection of our Lord. Their church service was in disorder. People were getting drunk at the Lord’s table. Church discipline did not even deal with sexual imorality that was public.
The church there was divided.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Yes, the tongue speakers in this church in cornth were the “carnal Christians”. The biggest weakness of the protestant tongues movement is a lack of the fruit of the spirit ( Gal 5 ). Do not allow that to infect your life too. Seek true wisdom from the book of proverbs.

Knowledge of scripture does not equal wisdom from below.

Jesus said we are to worship in spirit and truth. We are to honor God with all our body, spirit and mind. God also values our minds.

 

[Mickey]

In the Church, as in the New Testament, the gift of tongues is last on the list of gifts (1Cor 12:10, 28), and temporary (1Cor 13:8).

Tongues are primarily for the edification of the one who speaks (1Cor 14:4) and difficult to understand (1Cor 14: 11, 14).

St John Chrysostom says that tongues are “neither altogether useless, nor very profitable”.

Peace to all,
Mickey

 

[Mickey]

The following is answer to a question regarding the gift of tongues. The source is Eastern Orthodox:

**On the first Christian Pentecost, the Apostles spoke, and people understood their preaching in their own tongues. It is not entirely clear whether the gift was in the “speaking” or in the “hearing”, but the result was that all men heard the gospel (good tidings) in their own tongue. The apostles did not speak in an ecstatic prayer language, as the modern day heretical Pentecostal sects, and other Protestants and Roman Catholics infected with this false teaching practice. **

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Church Militant:

Okay Gusano,

Lemme just point out (again) that you have pulled verses and parts of verses out of their context in order to support your position.

You even failed to carry on the quote from St. Paul which says.
5 And I would have you all to speak with tongues, but rather to prophesy. For greater is he that prophesieth, than he that speaketh with tongues: unless perhaps he interpret, that the church may receive edification. (1st Cor 14:5) What does Paul really say here? Unless a message in tongues is interpretted, it is better to prophesy.If this is your opinion of the Mass without tongues then there is something wrong with your perception of the Mass. Futher, if these expressions of the gifts of the spirit disrupt the Mass then they are flat out abuses and someone needs to get right with God about it, not scandalize the rest of the Body of Christ with out of context teachings that wink at the problem.

Your gas thief analogy is actually irrelevent, in part (again) because you (and SW) are attempting to imply something concerning my spiritual state and what I am saying that is not at all in evidence here.

So… just for the record here, since you seem to have missed the diaconate in the A/G church comments and what they mean, I’ll spell it all out for you guys.

I have prayed in tongues.
I have prophesied (and still do) without tongues.
I have interpretted tongues.
I have also discerned when they are not of the Holy Spirit.

I do not pray in tongues anymore and do not miss it, unless you consider my Latin prayers tongues.
I do not consider myself a “Charismatic Catholic”.
I do not attend Charismatic services because I don’t feel any need.

I am not saying that they are not of God. Some are, some aren’t.
I do feel that many times there is gross disorder in the Charismatic/Penetcostal services that need to be disciplined by the clergy.
I also think that Charismatics make a bigger deal of their gifts and often imply (as you and SW have done to me) that anyone who is not involved in this is somehow less useful to the Body of Christ or “carnal” which is not at all in evidence, either in the Word of God or in practical experience.

This part of your own post is a good example I think:
I have already shown that I have not “refused” anything. Perhaps I have outgrown the need for it. That is certainly supported by Paul’s writings in this matter.

Your scripture citation is also exemplary of just what I mean about pulling things out of context to support yourself. That verse (Luke 12:49) has absolutely ZERO to do with the gifts of the spirit. It is actually from a passage in which Jesus is speaking of the end of the world. I suggest to all reading this thread that you read that chapter for yourself to see what it means in context.
Pax vobiscum,

WOW!!! What a lovely set of peacock feathers you are fanning. God Bless

 

[JMJ_Theresa]

I know this is an important gift from God. However this Q & A from ewtn sorta scared me:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=453245&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2005&Author=&Keyword=tongues&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Colin Donovan basically said that it is possible for evil spirits to do the “talking”–isn’t that scarey? How do you know your gift of tongues is from God?

 

[SPOKENWORD]

JMJ Theresa:

I know this is an important gift from God. However this Q & A from ewtn sorta scared me:

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=453245&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2005&Author=&Keyword=tongues&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Colin Donovan basically said that it is possible for evil spirits to do the “talking”–isn’t that scarey? How do you know your gift of tongues is from God?

Is it possible to curse God out of His Spirit? Its impossible. Wrong spirit God Bless

 

[SPOKENWORD]

QUOTE=Church Militant I do not pray in tongues anymore and do not miss it, unless you consider my Latin prayers tongues.
I do not consider myself a “Charismatic Catholic”.
================================================================When God gives you His Gifts and you hide them under a bushel,you are saying you know more than God in what you need… Of course you dont pray in tongues anymore. Another thing if you are not Charismatic you lack charisma. How sad. God Bless

 

[Matt16_18]

Kristina P.:

Thank you for this post. Do you agree that the New Testament admonishes those who are praying in tongues, without an interpreter, to keep quiet, pray in the Spirit, and not disturb others in the assembly (I Cor. 14:28)? So much of this debate could be cleared up if everyone would just read I Cor. 14.

The early Christians were all “charismatics”. Praising in tongues during the Mass was the norm, and no one was “disturbed” by people praying in tongues during the Mass.

The footnotes in the NAB to Cor. chapter 14 are well worth reading:1 [1-5] 1 Cor 14:1b returns to the thought of 1 Cor 12:31a and reveals Paul’s primary concern. The series of contrasts in 1 Cor 14:2-5 discloses the problem at Corinth: a disproportionate interest in tongues, with a corresponding failure to appreciate the worth of prophecy. Paul attempts to clarify the relative values of those gifts by indicating the kind of communication achieved in each and the kind of effect each produces.

2 [2-3a] They involve two kinds of communication: tongues, private speech toward God in inarticulate terms that need interpretation to be intelligible to others (see 1 Cor 14:27-28); prophecy, communication with others in the community.

3 [3b-5] They produce two kinds of effect. One who speaks in tongues builds himself up; it is a matter of individual experience and personal perfection, which inevitably recalls Paul’s previous remarks about being inflated, seeking one’s own good, pleasing oneself. But a prophet builds up the church: the theme of “building up” or “edifying” others, the main theme of the letter, comes to clearest expression in this chapter (1 Cor 14:3, 4, 5, 12, 17). It has been anticipated at 1 Cor 8:1 and 1 Cor 10:23, and by the related concept of “the beneficial” in 1 Cor 6:12; 10:23; 12:7; etc.

4 [6-12] Sound, in order to be useful, must be intelligible. This principle is illustrated by a series of analogies from music (1 Cor 14:7-8) and from ordinary human speech (1 Cor 14:10-11); it is applied to the case at hand in 1 Cor 14:9, 12.

5 [13-19] The charism of interpretation lifts tongues to the level of intelligibility, enabling them to produce the same effect as prophecy (cf 1 Cor 14:5, 26-28).

6 [14-15] My spirit: Paul emphasizes the exclusively ecstatic, nonrational quality of tongues. The tongues at Pentecost are also described as an ecstatic experience (Acts 2:4, 12-13), though Luke superimposes further interpretations of his own. My mind: the ecstatic element, dominant in earliest Old Testament prophecy as depicted in 1 Sam 10:5-13; 19:20-24, seems entirely absent from Paul’s notion of prophecy and completely relegated to tongues. He emphasizes the role of reason when he specifies instruction as a function of prophecy (1 Cor 14:6, 19, 31). But he does not exclude intuition and emotion; cf references to encouragement and consolation (1 Cor 14:3, 31) and the scene describing the ideal exercise of prophecy (1 Cor 14:24-25).

7 [20-22] The Corinthians pride themselves on tongues as a sign of God’s favor, a means of direct communication with him (2.28). To challenge them to a more mature appraisal, Paul draws from scripture a less flattering explanation of what speaking in tongues may signify. Isaiah threatened the people that if they failed to listen to their prophets, the Lord would speak to them (in punishment) through the lips of Assyrian conquerors (Isaiah 28:11-12). Paul compresses Isaiah’s text and makes God address his people directly. Equating tongues with foreign languages (cf 1 Cor 14:10-11), Paul concludes from Isaiah that tongues are a sign not for those who believe, i.e., not a mark of God’s pleasure for those who listen to him but a mark of his displeasure with those in the community who are faithless, who have not heeded the message that he has sent through the prophets.

8 [23-25] Paul projects the possible missionary effect of two hypothetical liturgical experiences, one consisting wholly of tongues, the other entirely of prophecy. Uninstructed (idiotai): the term may simply mean people who do not speak or understand tongues, as in 1 Cor 14:16, where it seems to designate Christians. But coupled with the term “unbelievers” it may be another way of designating those who have not been initiated into the community of faith; some believe it denotes a special class of non-Christians who are close to the community, such as catechumens. Unbelievers (apistoi): he has shifted from the inner-community perspective of 1 Cor 14:22; the term here designates non-Christians (cf 1 Cor 6:6; 7:15; 10:27).

9 [26-33a] Paul concludes with specific directives regarding exercise of the gifts in their assemblies. Verse 26 enunciates the basic criterion in the use of any gift: it must contribute to “building up.”

 

[Matt16_18]

Maranajewell:

I am a Catholic who used to be Pentecostal. I have spoken in tongues or at least I think I have, it may have just been me. This used to be a main issue in my life as to whether I really had the Holy Spirit or not…and it used to torment me.

Pentecostals are flat out wrong when they assert that speaking in tongues is “evidence” that one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Many Pentecostals are “Oneness” Pentecostals that confess the heresy of modalism. There are many among the Oneness Pentecostal sects have not yet received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit since their modalist beliefs makes the baptism they administer invalid.

Upon converting to the Catholic Church, I can happily say that I no longer am tormented by this issue.

The major crisis in our Church today is not following the teachings we have received from the Church.

I agree.

 

[gusano]

Church Militant:

Okay Gusano,
… if these expressions of the gifts of the spirit** disrupt** the Mass then they are flat out…

OK CM, you have voiced many opinions and advice "…if the Gifts disrupt the Mass."
Do you have any opinions or advice If the gifts of the Holy Spirit do not disrupt the Mass ?

since you seem to have missed the diaconate in the A/G church comments and what they mean, I’ll spell it all out for you guys.
I have prayed in tongues.
I have prophesied (and still do) without tongues.
I have interpretted tongues.
I have also discerned when they are not of the Holy Spirit.

I do not pray in tongues anymore and do not miss it, unless you consider my Latin prayers tongues.
I do not consider myself a “Charismatic Catholic”.
I do not attend Charismatic services because I don’t feel any need.

I do not consider that “praying in Latin” is even worthy of loosening the Sandal strap of “Prayer In the Spirit .” (Tongues)
Prayer in Latin is Good but it is still in the flesh.
Prayer in Tongues is complete abandon into the Language of the Spirit…as in Romans 8: 26**"
The Spirit too helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought;
but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that can not be expressed in speech.
He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills."**

Sounds like you may have become such a “spiritual giant” that you no longer need The Holy Spirit and His Gifts in your life.

A Catholic Charismatic is simply one who lives in The Baptism of The Holy Spirit…"Filled with The Holy Spirit "
or Whole hartedly wants to.
Is that what you no longer consider yourself to be ?

This part of your own post is a good example I think:
I have already shown that I have not “refused” anything. Perhaps I have outgrown the need for it. That is certainly supported by Paul’s writings in this matter.

St. Paul supports no such thing.
He even says " I thank God I speak in tongues more than any of you…"
Now if you wave the “red flag” of CONTEXT at me,
I will respond that regardless of what ever else Paul has said, you cannot deny that He is thankful to God
for being the most "Tounge Speaking " disciple in all the Mediterranean.
Strange that He never “out-grew” it, and Look at all He accomplished !
Imagine what you could accomplish if you had the fire that comes from that Prayer Language Jesus has available for us !

Maybe you are already very proud of your accomplishments.

Your scripture citation … (Luke 12:49) has absolutely ZERO to do with the gifts of the spirit.
It is actually from a passage in which Jesus is speaking of the end of the world.

OH BOY ! If only you knew !
My evangelical heretic brother, and my welcome visitors, the JWs, say the very same thing when they are shown a Scrupture that is outside of their understanding.

On the contrary He is telling us what He came to do.
Maybe you missed verse 48:
" …when much has been given a man, much will be required of him.
More will be asked of a man to whom more has been entrusted."
Do you understand how much God has given you ?

at this very moment This verse comes to my mind;
"Whom would you say I am tyrying to please at this point—men or God?
Is this how I seek to ingratiate myself with men?
If I were trying to win man’s approval, I would surely not be serving Christ !" Gal. 1: 10

Is this in any context with what we are discussing?

In the service of Christ

gusano

 

[gusano]

Church Militant:

Is that or is that not one of the standard replies that cult members offer to those outside their group who offer criticism of any kind? Regardless of whoever else may use “standard replies” Saint Paul says it as Truth.

Is not Charismatic/Pentecostalism a “cult” or sect of Christianity in about the same way as are those that are devoted to the Blessed Virgin? As with all cults, there are some problems. That’s nothing new

Lets face it “cult” or “occult” means HIDDEN.
and whether it is GOOD or EVIL, much of it is Hidden , or occult.
much of the Kingdom of God is HIDDEN and can only be known as God REVEALS IT.
much of witchcraft is hidden and if one wants to go there he will get all the help he desires.
This is one big reason The Holy Spirit wants to indwell us so He can be our DISCERNMENT.
and reveal hidden mysteries to us (Mystagogia)

You guys imply again and again that those of us who do not share your interest or “gifts” are somehow less spiritual than those who are. So I’m actually glad that you brought up that verse (again, out of its context) from 1st Corinthians 2:14. Again, I urge every one to read the entire passage for context and in fact it would be best to read the chapters either side of it as well. (We’re gonna wind up having read the entire letter of 1st Corinthians, and that is not a bad thing at all! )

Wouldn’t it be better to just make The Bible our No. 1 source of reading ?
or would the fear of “sola-scriptura” frighten timid catholics too severely ?

My remark:
was by no means meant as a cheap shot, but simply to point out the fallacy of the “You-can’t understand-this-if-you aren’t-one-of-us” mentality and again, to point up the assertion (at least implied by SW’s remarks to me, and I know him better than many here on CAF and other forums BTW) that to bring up these cautions and concerns is somehow the mark of one who lacks the fullness of the Holy Spirit, His gifts, or is just a “carnal Christian”.

The fact that you guys have chosen to respond with such heat makes me think that perhaps I have hit something too near the mark since you seem to “protest too much” as the saying goes.
Pax vobiscum,

"God resists the proud, but gives Grace to the humble."
1 Peter 5: 5

"All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8: 14

To be Led by the Holy Spirit…
First we need to be humble…or be made humble.
I think we acqire humility as we walk along behind (inside of) The Holy Spirit.

gusano

 

[allisonP]

Maybe as Paul said in 1Corinthians, they sound like “clanging symbals” when they speak not in love.
Know what I mean? Maybe it isn’t the lack of being “open to the spirit” from the person listening, but rather, a lack of love from the speaker that makes their speaking uninteligable.
Just a thought.

 

[Mickey]

gusano:

Sounds like you may have become such a “spiritual giant” that you no longer need The Holy Spirit and His Gifts in your life.

Is this sarcasm? It sounds uncharitable.