Special request from US Bishops!

[Mrs_Sally]

Surely Holy Church still has - but I may be mistaken, please do correct me if I’m wrong - the guidance of the Holy Spirit on these matters, right? After all, Christ chose 12 men to change the world, and even if the Church Militant is facing issues with lukewarmness (and it will only get worse, remember? “Will the Son of Man find any faith when he returns?”) we are joined in our trials and spiritual combat by the rest of the Church…it would be a very serious error to believe that only the living are in the combat and that works can do more than prayer…a very serious error, for often it is the other way around.

Let us then pay attention to the special request by our bishops and begin to do this penance and even more, if possible, because God was willing to spare Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of 10 righteous men, and He spared the already condemned Nineveh because the righteous people did penance.

Yes, the Church has the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And part of following that guidance is remaining close to the Church visible in the person of the Pope and the Bishops.

The Church Militant suffers from whatever is happening on earth, but it is the Church Triumphant that does the work, aided by the Church Suffering in Purgatory- who are also counting on our prayers.

Rather than demanding signs, which Christ has told us not to do, we need to be following the request of the Princes of the Church by praying and fasting as they have asked us to do.

BeeHumble is correct to refer us to the constant refrain of Our Lady and the Saints, that we should pray and do penance for our own sins and in reparation for others’ sins too!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Maybe if we start over with this…….we are being asked by the bishops to pray and fast for religious freedom. Why is religious freedom being threatened? By the legislative actions taken by an over-reaching government which our bishops completely supported on a political plane, until all the noxious details came out which we now know threaten our freedom of conscience and is opposed to all Catholics believe regarding life. We are not arguing the need to fast and pray……we are contending that the bishops promoted specific political leftist ideology which is beyond their area of proficiency.

But it doesn’t matter how it came to be. Certainly the president was perfectly capable of putting these programs in place even without whatever documents the bishops issued. We have the example of many other points in history where atheistic governments completly overrode the Church’s objections with or without the consent of the people.

Not only that, a quick look at the earlier encyclicals will show that JP II, for instance, did not advocate for a welfare state but upheld the fundamental principle of subsidiarity. Now we have a system which enables the federal bureaucracy to monitor the necessary healthcare needs (life issues) without benefit of any moral consideration and one that would leave us helpless in the hands of a centralized, secular government which is totally unconcerned about the dignity and primacy of the human person. Actually, I believe the bishops have spoken against the Constitution itself which leaves many issues in the hands of the states and whose original intent was limited government. They have also issued general statements about immigration, gun control and the economy – all areas of prudential judgment and not specific church teaching. As our spiritual leaders, they are delving into areas that, as we can now see, are very harmful to us and ones (as Cardinal Dulles said) they are not competent to judge. JP II once told the bishops during the ‘60’s to get out of politics in Latin America where great, great harm was being done to the Church and much heresy was seen. We are begging them to focus on catechesis instead and renew the church by their role as teachers of the faith. Evangelization, YES! We are begging for the purification of our clergy and our church in order that we ourselves might be purified. Or maybe, that’s backward as Jeremiah said -

‘Return O ye revolting children … and I will give you pastors according to My own heart’.(Jer. 3:14,15)

The Bishops are now not talking politics, but have appealed directly to the faithful to implement the oldest forms of reperation - prayer and fasting. It behooves us to not see this in light of politics, but as a call from the shephards the Church has given us and obey them.

 

[iloveangels]

But it doesn’t matter how it came to be. Certainly the president was perfectly capable of putting these programs in place even without whatever documents the bishops issued. We have the example of many other points in history where atheistic governments completly overrode the Church’s objections with or without the consent of the people.

The government didn’t “override the Church’s objections.” The USCCB went right along with it, and in fact, were key players in getting this thing passed. And then they were double-crossed because they were in over their heads. And because we make such a darned good target due to our public contradictions.

The Bishops are now not talking politics, but have appealed directly to the faithful to implement the oldest forms of reperation - prayer and fasting. It behooves us to not see this in light of politics, but as a call from the shephards the Church has given us and obey them.

They’re not talking politics because they got walloped by politics again, and that avenue is now just about exhausted. Even they have figured that out.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

iloveangels, if you can’t bring yourself to be respectful of the Bishops of the Church, please don’t speak about them again. I will report any post in which you refer to any Bishop as gullible, stupi, or anything even remotely close to that.

 

[iloveangels]

Maybe if we start over with this…….we are being asked by the bishops to pray and fast for religious freedom. Why is religious freedom being threatened? By the legislative actions taken by an over-reaching government which our bishops completely supported on a political plane, until all the noxious details came out which we now know threaten our freedom of conscience and is opposed to all Catholics believe regarding life. We are not arguing the need to fast and pray……we are contending that the bishops promoted specific political leftist ideology which is beyond their area of proficiency.

Not only that, a quick look at the earlier encyclicals will show that JP II, for instance, did not advocate for a welfare state but upheld the fundamental principle of subsidiarity. Now we have a system which enables the federal bureaucracy to monitor the necessary healthcare needs (life issues) without benefit of any moral consideration and one that would leave us helpless in the hands of a centralized, secular government which is totally unconcerned about the dignity and primacy of the human person. Actually, I believe the bishops have spoken against the Constitution itself which leaves many issues in the hands of the states and whose original intent was limited government. They have also issued general statements about immigration, gun control and the economy – all areas of prudential judgment and not specific church teaching. As our spiritual leaders, they are delving into areas that, as we can now see, are very harmful to us and ones (as Cardinal Dulles said) they are not competent to judge. JP II once told the bishops during the ‘60’s to get out of politics in Latin America where great, great harm was being done to the Church and much heresy was seen. We are begging them to focus on catechesis instead and renew the church by their role as teachers of the faith. Evangelization, YES! We are begging for the purification of our clergy and our church in order that we ourselves might be purified. Or maybe, that’s backward as Jeremiah said -

‘Return O ye revolting children … and I will give you pastors according to My own heart’.(Jer. 3:14,15)

This is a good post with some of the background, in answer to a question someone asked. I agree that we need to be teaching the faith and not meddling in politics. There are more nasty things coming down the pike and we have to minimize our exposure. This is not over.

 

[wynnejj]

I can think of another immediate flashpoint that could have used a strong prayer campaign 40 years ago …

Why: The well-being of society requires that life, marriage, and religious liberty are promoted and protected. Serious threats to each of these goods, however, have raised unprecedented challenges to the Church and to the nation. Two immediate flashpoints are the following:

First is the HHS Mandate, which requires almost all employers, including Catholic employers, to pay for employees’ contraception, sterilization, and abortifacient drugs regardless of conscientious objections. This is a clear affront to America’s first freedom, religious liberty, as well as to the inherent dignity of every human person.

Second, current trends in both government and culture are moving toward redefining marriage as the union of any two persons, ignoring marriage’s fundamental meaning and purpose as the universal institution that unites a man and a woman with each other and with the children born from their union. These challenges call for increased awareness and formation, as well as spiritual stamina and fortitude among the faithful, so that we may all be effective and joyful witnesses of faith, hope and charity.

But it is nice to see that after 40 years, the bishops have their eye on the ball …

Nice to see “Life” make it to the prayer campaign. I sure hope we don’t resolve the other two issues first before the prayer campaign is over …

 

[beehumble]

I hope I am understanding this correctly, that is, I hope you are referring to the development of a religious deception external to the Church, that will bring great persecutions to the Church (CCC 675). Indeed we see that “the Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world” (CCC 676), however we are very, very far from being in the time of the great apostasy…many of the signs spoken by Christ are yet to be seen, and certainly we have seen nothing like Antichrist yet. When we see him, then we’ll know we are there. In the meanwhile, we stay close to the Church, support our bishops whether or not we like what they do and ask of us, and pray a lot.

Yes, the falling away is the work of Satan’s deceptions. Modernism is one of those deceptions. Persecution also causes falling away, and can result from the falling away. The great chastisements of the twentieth century caused many Christians to ask, “where is God in all of this war and killing, this Naziism, this communism?” This weakened their faith in the existence of God and gave reinforcement to the classic argument against His existence: if God exists, why is there such horrible suffering in the world? At other times in history persecution caused massive falling away of Christians, such as the Great Persecution of circa 300 AD.

Priests have fallen away, some (maybe many?) Catholics are what the Pope recently called “practical atheists” - profess to be Catholic (with their lips), but practicing atheism (their actions, such as use of contraception, procuring or having abortions, not attending Mass (worshiping of God), living together as man and wife in sin (cohabitation), premarital sex, supporting same-sex marriage, etc. )

Many think we are in the great apostasy. The Pope has created a new dicastry (department) for the re-evangelization of the West, to re-establish Christianity there (obviously because so many there have fallen away - it was the cradle of Christianity.)

And the signs of the end, can you tell me what are those you are referring to? A good book on all this is A While Longer, by the way. And there is the End Times Speculation thread, too.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, the falling away is the work of Satan’s deceptions. Modernism is one of those deceptions. Persecution also causes falling away, and can result from the falling away. The great chastisements of the twentieth century caused many Christians to ask, “where is God in all of this war and killing, this Naziism, this communism?” This weakened their faith in the existence of God and gave reinforcement to the classic argument against His existence: if God exists, why is there such horrible suffering in the world? At other times in history persecution caused massive falling away of Christians, such as the Great Persecution of circa 300 AD.

…

God bless you.

More allegory.

Look, all of this may or may not be true in some 5000-miles-up, 5000-miles-away manner, and I have no idea which it is (true or not), but it’s not particularly helpful to many people who wonder what happened and how to deal with the problems we now have, and the ones to come.

Here’s something interesting to think about though: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10121356&postcount=215

We were talking in another thread too. Someone said that we were being persecuted for Church teaching. Um, not so much. That was never the point being made by the media, the politicians or the general population. Rather, the problem is that no matter what the Church teaches, Catholics in this country do what they want, which is pretty much what the general population does too. We’re not different from them in almost all respects. We have become them. They were merely pointing that out to us, because they know this. Doubt that? Look at the voting numbers. We even vote like they do. And it made the Church into a scapegoat for political advantage. We were used.

We have a problem if we don’t like being used. We have to decide whether we are the general population or not. If we’re not, then we have to clean up our act as Catholics. Not just one of us, but all of us as a group. If we want to claim the high ground, then we have to live on the high ground.

 

[beehumble]

More allegory.

Look, all of this may or may not be true in some 5000-miles-up, 5000-miles-away manner, and I have no idea which it is (true or not), but it’s not particularly helpful to many people who wonder what happened and how to deal with the problems we now have, and the ones to come.

And what is your solution? The Church is “drowning” and you keep describing the water. Christians have apostatized and you keep saying, “Christians aren’t acting like Christians anymore.” Excuse me, but there’s a name for that and its called “apostasy”. You keep saying apostasy is allegorical followed by “I wish today’s Christians would act like Christians.”

I think I’ll take the solution offered by Our Lady, the Pope, and the bishops. Our Lady calls for conversion, a sincere turning back to God. Why? Because Conversion is the opposite of apostasy, and therefore Our Lady’s call in and of itself says that we are in Apostasy. The Pope and the bishops also call for conversion, for new evangelization, for a Year of Faith to rediscover and reconnect with our faith, and all of them call for prayer, fasting, confession, Mass attendance, and witnessing the Gospels.

Why? Again, because they know we are in apostasy, that’s why. And THEY offer the best solution to the problem.

People need to be HUMBLE and accept they cannot fix this, that they must follow the bishops’ lead and turn to God and implore His help in this.

Everybody needs to stop wringing their hands and fall in line behind the bishops and pray and fast.

God bless you.

 

[iloveangels]

And what is your solution? The Church is “drowning” and you keep describing the water. Christians have apostatized and you keep saying, “Christians aren’t acting like Christians anymore.” Excuse me, but there’s a name for that and its called “apostasy”. You keep saying apostasy is allegorical followed by “I wish today’s Christians would act like Christians.”

I think I’ll take the solution offered by Our Lady, the Pope, and the bishops. Our Lady calls for conversion, a sincere turning back to God. Why? Because Conversion is the opposite of apostasy, and therefore Our Lady’s call in and of itself says that we are in Apostasy. The Pope and the bishops also call for conversion, for new evangelization, for a Year of Faith to rediscover and reconnect with our faith, and all of them call for prayer, fasting, confession, Mass attendance, and witnessing the Gospels.

Why? Again, because they know we are in apostasy, that’s why. And THEY offer the best solution to the problem.

People need to be HUMBLE and accept they cannot fix this, that they must follow the bishops’ lead and turn to God and implore His help in this.

Everybody needs to stop wringing their hands and fall in line behind the bishops and pray and fast.

God bless you.

The answer to our problems is not “SHUT UP AND GET IN LINE.”

catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-official-warns-of-mediocrity-in-american-christianity/

QUOTE:

*"Carriquiry underscored that encountering Christ requires a radical renewal of catechesis, “which needs to be presented in all of its grandeur, because there is grave ignorance of our faith, especially in the new generations.”

“We are experiencing this crisis of authentic Catholic formation which can be seen in all Christians but especially in those who have the greatest influence in our society.”

“For this reason,” he said, “we need to completely re-think the Christian formation of the faithful, whether for initiation or re-initiation, in order to achieve a growing and solid formation of mature persons in the faith.” "*

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The answer to our problems is not “SHUT UP AND GET IN LINE.” Even the Church says it’s more:

catholicnewsagency.com/news/vatican-official-warns-of-mediocrity-in-american-christianity/

I recommend you send some time on the US Bishop’s website. Start here: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/disciples-called-to-witness/

 

[iloveangels]

I recommend you send some time on the US Bishop’s website. Start here: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/how-we-teach/new-evangelization/disciples-called-to-witness/

Hey listen, don’t shoot the messenger. Like I said, If you want to claim the high ground, you have to live on the high ground.

People in the general population are onto us, we’ve got to straighten up and fly right, now.

 

[hsmomforlife]

If they want this to go anywhere, they’d better get it out to parishes.

If WE want this to go anywhere, WE’D better help!

 

[R_C]

@beehumble thanks for the explanation and the suggested readings. You did show deep understanding of the issue, far beyond what I am used to hear when people mention end times and great apostasy in a discussion!

 

[iloveangels]

@beehumble thanks for the explanation and the suggested readings. You did show deep understanding of the issue, far beyond what I am used to hear when people mention end times and great apostasy in a discussion!

There have been multiple apostacies through history. How do you know this is the great apostacy? No hyperbole, please. Proof.

 

[HansTrappist]

I think I’ll take the solution offered by Our Lady, the Pope, and the bishops. Our Lady calls for conversion, a sincere turning back to God.

Our Lady also has a “road map” for Peace. She stated it at the approved apparitions to Ida Peerdeman (yes, the Lady of All Nations was approved by the local bishop, despite what Richard Salbato of Unity Publishing and Ron Conte have said to the contrary). Dr. Mark Miravalle summarizes the Mother of God’s road map to Peace here: youtube.com/watch?v=hWounibeJB0&list=UUFdACNbusRGZ6nuxVQ1K1NA&index=3

When Our Lady speaks, it is wise to listen and heed her requests.

 

[iloveangels]

Our Lady also has a “road map” for Peace. She stated it at the approved apparitions to Ida Peerdeman (yes, the Lady of All Nations was approved by the local bishop, despite what Richard Salbato of Unity Publishing and Ron Conte have said to the contrary). Dr. Mark Miravalle summarizes the Mother of God’s road map to Peace here: youtube.com/watch?v=hWounibeJB0&list=UUFdACNbusRGZ6nuxVQ1K1NA&index=3

When Our Lady speaks, it is wise to listen and heed her requests.

That’s not an answer to my question.

Besides, this thread isn’t even really about Mary or the Rosary or anything like that. It’s about the HHS mandate.

 

[zonie]

earlier in this thread, someone said that they wondered why more Catholics voted for Obama. Was it that they were voting for abortion? Against Repubican immigration policy? For peace vs war? Well, I for one, voted FOR what I feel the Pope was for. Every time the US Catholic Bishops stood up about voting Republican… (that’s what it was… really)… the Pope would come out in a public statement about “feeding the hungry, and clothing the naked” etc. He couldn’t publicly slap them down, but he almost did. Then he went all out in a GRACIOUS congrats to Barack Obama for winning the election. If he thought it was so evil… why didn’t he just go silent? You HHS folk don’t realize that he is the Pope of the WORLD. Would he not have to go out and tell Canadians, Europeans… etc to stop paying taxes that fund abortion if he told US to refuse to elect Obama based on HHS? Really… have you considered that? He’d be a hypocrite not to level the playing field. One standard for us… and another for the rest of the world?

 

[HansTrappist]

That’s not an answer to my question.

Besides, this thread isn’t even really about Mary or the Rosary or anything like that. It’s about the HHS mandate.

I am sorry, I was responding to another comment.

But I think you will find that Our Lady’s road map for Peace is the answer to your questions. It is the answer to all the problems the world faces, including the HHS mandate.

 

[iloveangels]

I am sorry, I was responding to another comment.

But I think you will find that Our Lady’s road map for Peace is the answer to your questions. It is the answer to all the problems the world faces, including the HHS mandate.

Not my style of spirituality, I guess. Everyone to their own. Cheers!