SPLIT: Catholics have no assurance of salvation

[John_Martin]

My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation.

Rebirth -
I was born a citizen of the United States. Whether or not I was a “patriotic American” (or, I could say, a “faithful American”, to maintain the parallel) did not change the fact that I was an American.

Then I was Baptized by the Church - suddenly I was a citizen of the Kingdom of God. Whether or not I was faithful, I still had that identity of being a Christian, a citizen. Not only did they baptize me, but the Church also worked at the rest of the work Jesus told them to do when making someone a Christian - they taught me. And they confirmed me, confirmed that I was one of them, and layed their hands on me.
Re-birth - I was born into a new identity of citizenship in a Nation that you cannot get into yourself, no matter how much you might want to. The Church has to baptize you - that is your entry into this new life as a citizen of the Kingdom Christ established. It is “Spiritual Rebirth” because now I call God my Father and Jesus is my Lord (my King), and no one can do that except by the Holy Spirit.

Now, what shall I do as a citizen of this Kingdom? I shall go to mass - citizens meet together for nourishment of the Word and of the Sacraments and meet together so they know they are not alone. Citizens do justice without being asked (or without being forced by courts). Citizens help one another. Citizens are evidence in the world that Christ’s Kingdom is true.

My Assurance of being a child of God, a citizen of the People of God, is that the People of God (whom Jesus established as his Kingdom) gave me my union with my Chirst, and continue to grant me forgivenss and continue to feed me with his Word and his Body and his Blood. What they bind here in the world, my Lord and my God have bound in heaven.

Catholics have assurance because they take it ultimately seriously that Jesus did indeed grant to Peter the position of being his “head of state” in his Kingdom in the world (but not of the world, not established by men with swords). The Gospel, to a Catholic, is exactly what Jesus said when he first became annointed as King (Messiah, Christ) by John. Jesus went out saying, The Kingdom of God is here; come, turn from your sin and believe me, this good news I am telling you; come and I will baptize you (my disciples do the baptizing in my name) making you one of my people.

Catholics know they are a real “people”, a Kingdom, not simply individuals sharing common belief structures. Being one with our King in his Body is salvation, it is “now”. Turning my face away from him and from this people is death, it is death right “now”. My assurance is “Now” - I am sure in communion with Christ in his Body. I don’t care to have some theoretical guarantee that God will take me to heaven if I turn away - for who in their right mind would turn away and neglect such a great thing, such a great salvation, as being one with Christ, being with his People every day, sharing in his heavenly banquet at every Mass?

 

[guanophore]

. My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation.

Clearly you know very little about Catholic soteriology. Did you know that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics? There is nothing in it that isn’t Catholic. All those “assurance verses” are in there because they are Catholic.

 

[Bengoshi]

Clearly you know very little about Catholic soteriology. Did you know that the NT was written by, for, and about Catholics? There is nothing in it that isn’t Catholic. All those “assurance verses” are in there because they are Catholic.

During the time the NT was written, the Church wasn’t called “Catholic” yet. In fact, they were first called “Chritstians” at Antioch (Acts 11:26).

 

[Odell]

During the time the NT was written, the Church wasn’t called “Catholic” yet. In fact, they were first called “Chritstians” at Antioch (Acts 11:26).

The trinity wasnt called the trinity either. This does not mean the Church was not universal and lacked authority. That is what the term Catholic means. Christian describes the peaople Catholic describes the Church.

 

[twb1621]

Maybe this article can answer your questions:

letusreason.org/cult12.htm

Ben, all due respect, It is not my goal to point out to you what your sources may say in contradiction to scripture itself and the fact that you refer to such sources to support your faith rather than responding to scripture is evident. I can not discuss the issues with the author of a book, but only with living human beings such as yourself. In this case, I am referring to Scripture with my questions to you and the answers I am asking for pertain to Scripture, not the opinions of others at this point. Scripture is the fountain of our faith, yours as well. If you can not answer to scripture to express the credibility in your faith first, by referring to other sources of men, all you are doing is confirming you have adopted the opinions of others rather than having a reasonable understanding of scripture personally. If you wouldn’t mind, lets concentrate on what scripture tells us first. That is how you will find if any of your beliefs come in conflict with anything in scripture or not before adopting opinions over the Inspired word of God. This is the best way to find the truth in its entirity. Again, would you please respond with your own insight as to the post?

 

[paul_c]

Jimmy Akins book “Salvation Contraversey”

He sites alot of scripture. You dont apose anything I said do you?

Mabe this will help from his book.

The bible says we can atone for our sin.

Prov 16:6: “by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the lord a man avoids evil.” Prov is talking about atonement in a different sense temporal rather than eternal

We know this because we cant atone for our sins in the sense Christ did.

the Old testament most the time when salvation was mentioned it was reffering to temparol. We find it in the new testament as well. Problem is everyime the New Testament mentions salvation people assume it is referring to only eternal salvation. And that is not always the case.

Temporal salvation and Eternal salvation

Ex.14:13- and moses said to the people fear not stand firm, and see the salvation of the lord, which he will work for you today; for the Egyptions whom you see today,you shall never see again, the lord will fight for you and you have only to be still.

Luke.1:68-71, Blessed be the lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemd his people, and has **raised up a horn of salvation **for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from old, that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us.

Temporal and eternal Saviors

Obad20-21 the exiles Halah who are of the people of Israel shall posses Phoenicia as far as Zarephath; and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in shepharad shall possess the cities of Negeb, **saviors shall go up to mount zion **to rule mount esau and the kingdom shall be the lords

saviours plural not singular

Rom 11:13-14 Now I (Paul) am speaking to you Gentiles in as much then as I am an apostle to the gentiles** I magnify my ministry in order to save some of my fellow Jews.**

1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself and to your teaching hold to that for by so doing YOU will save both yourself and your hearers

Of course this does not mean that humans bestow salvation the same way christ does by earning it for them. But it does mean we serve as agents.

And this is where Indulgences come in.

Try reading his book he goes into way more than I can on the forums.

you guys understand?

I’ve not read the book, but I think you might be misinterpreting what he was saying.
There is only one heaven and so if you are interpretatingsalvation as entrance into heaven as many do, then there is only one way to heaven. Jesus death on the cross opened up access to heaven for all that believe in Jesus and follow his commandments to love God and neighbor. When Paul talks about saving the jews or each other, he is referring to bringing them to Christ, who will ultimately save them.

Now as for indulgences and temporal punishment, let me clarify how this works.

If you die in the state of Grace, you will enter heaven. However, if you still have the propensity to sin despite being in the state of grace, you will have to be purified and sanctified in purgatory prior to entrance into heaven, because nothing unclean will be allowed entrance. Temporal punishments is the essence of the purification or sanctification process that ultimately to sufficient holiness to enter heaven. We simply have to make up for our sins to satisfy justice and we must learn by doing so not to sin again. It is called Termporal punishment because it is temporary and not eternal.

The idea of indulgences is to begin that sanctification on Earth. Indulgences are ways to perform penance and to teach you to avoid sin that will bring you to holiness. The closer you get to holiness in life, the less purification you will need in Purgatory. One form of indulgence was to give alms to teach you to reduce your dependency on money and to demonstrate your love of God and Neighbor by how you use your resources. Unfortunately, some people perverted this concept to suggest that you could buy your way to heaven. Those that did so were missing the point that they were supposed to be doing it out of love and a desire to come closer to God. Besides almsgiving, indulgences can be given for acts of devotion or mercy that bring us closer to God and reduce our propensity to sin. They can only be granted by the Pope and in limited fashion by bishops.

So you see, There really is only one salvation, not seperate temporal and eternal salvations. There are temporal and eternal punishments, to be sure. And indulgences are actions on earth to address the temporal punishments while we still live, rather than to defer them to purgatory.

Here’s a reference from the Catholic Encyclopedia: newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

 

[paul_c]

During the time the NT was written, the Church wasn’t called “Catholic” yet. In fact, they were first called “Chritstians” at Antioch (Acts 11:26).

Yes, and they weren’t speaking English either. My point is that the words used don’t matter at all. What matters is the essence of the teaching and the Catholic Church faithfully teaches the same faith as the Apostles…

 

[paul_c]

None. It is my humble opinion. If it is indeed the RCC which has the exclusive authority to teach and hand down the teachings of Christ and the aposltes, then there would have been no need for Scripture to be written down and inerrantly preserved for generations to come.

You see, Bengoshi, the Bible was compiled as a teaching and liturgical tool by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But you need more than just the written scripture to understand the teachings of Christ. This should be quite obvious to you by now as you struggle with different people interpreting scripture in different ways and often coming to contradictory conclusions. Indeed, for the Bible to be used effectively as a teaching and liturgical tool, you must interpret it in the way it was intended and this requires understanding the context and traditions from which it is written. These continue to be handed down by word of mouth through the Catholic Church. This is not to say that the correct interpretations aren’t written anywhere. They are in the writings of subsequent Popes and bishops. You can read the writings of the Church fathers on line with no difficulty.

Of course God is all powerful, however, you are presuming that God would do such a thing when He has already decided to commit His teachings into writing so as to be preserved for posterity.

But I want you to note, Bengoshi, that when God decided to commit his teachings into writing to preserve them for posterity, he did so through men and specifically, through the Catholic Church. Now, he didn’t need to do it this way. After all, wrote out the 10 commandments and handed them to Moses. So why do you think he used the Catholic Church as his instrument to bring forth the Bible? Doesn’t that fact make it abundantly clear that the church is to be trusted?

The answer is “I do not know” but I never said that God lost His omnipotence after Jesus was born. God just chose to commit His New Testament into writing in the same way He did to His Old Testament.

There are some real similarities. The Old Testament was compiled by the Levitical priest that were authorized by God to teach the people. Jesus confirmed that they had this authority, even if their example was not to be followed. The New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church and sanctioned by the Pope who was authorized by God to teach the people. Jesus confirmed this in Matthew 16 and John 21, among other places…

 

[Odell]

I’ve not read the book, but I think you might be misinterpreting what he was saying.
There is only one heaven and so if you are interpretatingsalvation as entrance into heaven as many do, then there is only one way to heaven.

No I think you might be misinterpreting what im saying. Mine and the Church’s teaching is not that heaven is our only salvation. Salvation is a process and only complet when we get to heaven.

Temporal salvation and Eternal salvation

Ex.14:13- and moses said to the people fear not stand firm, and see** the salvation of the lord**, which he will work for you today; for the Egyptions whom you see today,you shall never see again, the lord will fight for you and you have only to be still.

Luke.1:68-71, Blessed be the lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemd his people, **and has raised up a horn of salvation **for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from old, that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us.

Jesus death on the cross opened up access to heaven for all that believe in Jesus and follow his commandments to love God and neighbor. When Paul talks about saving the jews or each other, he is referring to bringing them to Christ, who will ultimately save them.

Did you read this?
Of course this does not mean that humans bestow salvation the same way christ does by earning it for them. But it does mean we serve as agents. This is right out of his book.

Paul does say we can save ourselves
1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself and to your teaching hold to that for by so doing YOU will save both yourself and your hearers

Obviously he is not talking about eternal salvation we cant earn our eternal salvation.

Prov 16:6: “by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the lord a man avoids evil.” Prov is talking about atonement in a different sense temporal rather than eternal

Obad20-21 the exiles Halah who are of the people of Israel shall posses Phoenicia as far as Zarephath; and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in shepharad shall possess the cities of Negeb, saviors shall go up to mount zion to rule mount esau and the kingdom shall be the lords

again plural. not singular. This is the laguae of the Old Testament we have to read this in light of our New Testament passages that talk about salvation.

One more verse im sure you now well.
Luke 1:46-55: And Mary said “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him. He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly. The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty. He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy, according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

You know as well as I that Protestants use this as proof Mary sinned. And they would be interpriting this verse wrong. Mary is staiting just how the Old Testament writters did about salvation.

What does Mary acknowledge being saved from. “He has done great things for me, has shown might with his arm, disperesed the arrogeant, thrown down the rullers, the hungry he has filled, he helped Israel his servant.”

She was not saved from hell because she sined and needed to get to heaven. She was saved from even fallen into sin.

There is a difference in temperal and eternal salvation. Jimmy Aken makes that clear in his book.

Now as for indulgences and temporal punishment, let me clarify how this works.

If you die in the state of Grace, you will enter heaven. However, if you still have the propensity to sin despite being in the state of grace, you will have to be purified and sanctified in purgatory prior to entrance into heaven, because nothing unclean will be allowed entrance. Temporal punishments is the essence of the purification or sanctification process that ultimately to sufficient holiness to enter heaven. We simply have to make up for our sins to satisfy justice and we must learn by doing so not to sin again. It is called Termporal punishment because it is temporary and not eternal.

He talks about that as well.

 

[John_Martin]

None. It is my humble opinion. If it is indeed the RCC which has the exclusive authority to teach and hand down the teachings of Christ and the aposltes, then there would have been no need for Scripture to be written down and inerrantly preserved for generations to come…

… God just chose to commit His New Testament into writing in the same way He did to His Old Testament.

This “interpretation / teaching” of Scripture is undoubtedly different than your own, but, in Scripture I see the call to believe the gospel that the Kingdom God established is here, the call to turn from sin and be baptized, be granted entrance into the Kingdom. And just like the Ethiopian in Acts rejoiced at being included in the People of God, being granted citizenship with baptism, also I am joyful that the Church did not retain my sin against me, but forgave my sin and granted me to be a part of the Church, granted me full citizenship in Jesus’ Kingdom. And even now, when I confess my sins, as St. John encourages, God is faithful and just and grants me forgiveness through his servant, my priest.

This is what does not change – from the day of Pentecost until today, the Church has made people part of the new covenant by baptizing and teaching them to hold close all that Jesus told them. Jesus did not commission a book to lead us, but he commissioned his apostles (later called bishops).
If Peter were to have told me how to understand a letter from Paul, I would have taken Peter as the final authority, not my own opinion of what Paul wrote (Peter does, in fact, make reference to Paul’s letters, saying Paul is hard to understand). And vice versa, if Paul were to have told me how to understand a letter from Peter, I would have taken Paul’s interpretation as the final authority rather than telling Paul my interpretation of the letter was just as valid as his interpretation.

The bishops chose what books would be in the bible (in the 4th century); the bible did not tell anyone what books to include. Here is the point of believing in Jesus – believing that he knew what he was doing in appointing leadership to this pilgrim Kingdom that is in the world, but is not of the world. For me and my house, we will believe that He inspires his appointed leaders (Pope, bishops, priests, deacons). The bible was written by the faithful and was consolidated into a single book by the faithful bishops. And it is mis-read when it is not presented to us by the faithful, by the Church that Jesus established to teach us.

The Bible does stand alone – but it is “copyrighted” by the Church, and the “owner of the copyright” is the only one who can truly say what it means. Everyone else is just speculating what it means.

 

[John_Martin]

… And it is mis-read when it is not presented to us by the faithful, by the Church that Jesus established to teach us.

The Bible does stand alone – but it is “copyrighted” by the Church, and the “owner of the copyright” is the only one who can truly say what it means. Everyone else is just speculating what it means.

By the way, if one were to try to counter this with the quote that “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching…, etc.”, I would only reply that it was a bishop, an Apostle, who wrote that line, thus proving that the holder of the copyright is explaining the truth about scripture - the people he was writing to were paying heed to his explanation, letting the bishop’s explanation be the final authority rather than their own interpretations.

 

[paul_c]

No I think you might be misinterpreting what im saying. Mine and the Church’s teaching is not that heaven is our only salvation. Salvation is a process and only complet when we get to heaven.

Temporal salvation and Eternal salvation

Ex.14:13- and moses said to the people fear not stand firm, and see** the salvation of the lord**, which he will work for you today; for the Egyptions whom you see today,you shall never see again, the lord will fight for you and you have only to be still.

Luke.1:68-71, Blessed be the lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemd his people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from old, that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all who hate us.

Did you read this?
Of course this does not mean that humans bestow salvation the same way christ does by earning it for them. But it does mean we serve as agents. This is right out of his book.

Paul does say we can save ourselves
1Tim4:16- take heed to yourself and to your teaching hold to that for by so doing YOU will save both yourself and your hearers

Obviously he is not talking about eternal salvation we cant earn our eternal salvation.

Prov 16:6: “by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the lord a man avoids evil.” Prov is talking about atonement in a different sense temporal rather than eternal

Obad20-21 the exiles Halah who are of the people of Israel shall posses Phoenicia as far as Zarephath; and the exiles of Jerusalem who are in shepharad shall possess the cities of Negeb, saviors shall go up to mount zion to rule mount esau and the kingdom shall be the lords

again plural. not singular. This is the laguae of the Old Testament we have to read this in light of our New Testament passages that talk about salvation.

One more verse im sure you now well.
Luke 1:46-55: And Mary said “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord; my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name. His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him. He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart. He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly. The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty. He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy, according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.”

You know as well as I that Protestants use this as proof Mary sinned. And they would be interpriting this verse wrong. Mary is staiting just how the Old Testament writters did about salvation.

What does Mary acknowledge being saved from. “He has done great things for me, has shown might with his arm, disperesed the arrogeant, thrown down the rullers, the hungry he has filled, he helped Israel his servant.”

She was not saved from hell because she sined and needed to get to heaven. She was saved from even fallen into sin.

There is a difference in temperal and eternal salvation. Jimmy Aken makes that clear in his book.

Now as for indulgences and temporal punishment, let me clarify how this works.

If you die in the state of Grace, you will enter heaven. However, if you still have the propensity to sin despite being in the state of grace, you will have to be purified and sanctified in purgatory prior to entrance into heaven, because nothing unclean will be allowed entrance. Temporal punishments is the essence of the purification or sanctification process that ultimately to sufficient holiness to enter heaven. We simply have to make up for our sins to satisfy justice and we must learn by doing so not to sin again. It is called Termporal punishment because it is temporary and not eternal.

He talks about that as well.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Someone linked to this Assurance of Salvation tract: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter.

I don’t get it. The only thing that sends one to hell is mortal sin. Sin is only mortal if the sinner has full knowledge and consent. How can one who is self-deceived have full knowledge and consent?

 

[paul_c]

Someone linked to this Assurance of Salvation tract: catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

I don’t get it. The only thing that sends one to hell is mortal sin. Sin is only mortal if the sinner has full knowledge and consent. How can one who is self-deceived have full knowledge and consent?

Just because you convince yourself that its okay to cheat on your wife or to kill your neighbor, doesn’t mean that you won’t be held responsible. And just because you convince yourself that you can sin all you want because you believe in Jesus and he will save you, doesn’t mean that it is true. Accidents or mistakes don’t cause you to be condemned. But there is culpable ignorance… you are required to learn right from wrong.

 

[agent_grey]

Nobody is assured of their salvation. Nobody!

We are assured that everything necesary for perfect salvation is in place.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Just because you convince yourself that its okay to cheat on your wife or to kill your neighbor, doesn’t mean that you won’t be held responsible. And just because you convince yourself that you can sin all you want because you believe in Jesus and he will save you, doesn’t mean that it is true.

OK, but I haven’t done that. I live according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, to the best of my ability. When I sin seriously, I get to confession immediately.

Accidents or mistakes don’t cause you to be condemned. But there is culpable ignorance… you are required to learn right from wrong.

And I have done (and continue to do) that. So why am I not assured of my salvation? Where’s the ambiguity come in?

 

[Odell]

He talks about that as well.

Okay, maybe I did misunderstand you. Let’s see if I have your meaning. Temporal Salvation saves you from death. Eternal salvation saves you from hell…

almost. Keep in mind im not as good at this as Jimmy Aken.

Temporal Salvation saves us from temperal penalty. Eternal salvation saves us from eternal penalty.

Sorry not doinng it much justice but you really should read his book.

 

[mackbrislawn]

My issue with Catholic soteriology is that they have no assurance of salvation. Check out these links:

]

I need to understand “assurance of salvation” more. Does this mean that if you don’t have assurance of salvation you are damned? Or is it possible that even if you don’t feel that assurance, saved anyway? Or are all who lack that assurance damned?

If the latter, then one can have the assurance not of salvation, but of damnation. That is a horrible thing for one to learn, that he is damned. No wonder my atheist friend said, “If God existed, I would hate that bstard with all my might.” For him, the gospel is not good news, but bad news.

 

[mackbrislawn]

yes, but only as “evidence” you are already saved.

Hmm…it seems this ‘evidence’ is actually a sort of retroactive causation. A case where the future affects the past. Even if we are saved by faith alone, we still have to frantically work hard to make sure our faith is true, saving faith.

If “true faith” naturally results in good works, then it seems that we are put into an even higher state of anxiety than before, wondering if our works are good enough to be evidence that our faith is “true” faith! It turns out we are in even worse off than before.

I think I would rather remain Catholic. We don’t have to worry about our faith; we come to Jesus and have faith in Him. Even Luther knew that: hang on to the Gospel. That’s something he got right.

 

[paul_c]

Okay, maybe I did misunderstand you. Let’s see if I have your meaning. Temporal Salvation saves you from death. Eternal salvation saves you from hell…

almost. Keep in mind im not as good at this as Jimmy Aken.

Temporal Salvation saves us from temperal penalty. Eternal salvation saves us from eternal penalty.

Sorry not doinng it much justice but you really should read his book.

I guess I’ve never come across anyone who described it this way. And frankly, its a confusing way to put it. it effectively renames indulgences as temporal salvation. I think this is a Jimmy Akin definition to try to explain indulgences in a way that Protestants might understand.