W
WindGirl
Guest
Regardless of our many differences, may all have a wonderful Christmas.
- Status
L
Lampo
Guest
“We are CHURCH to the degree we accept Church teaching.” - Fr. John Corapi
Like most things in Catholicism WindGirl, it’s a “both/and” situation. The Church is both a visible organization with structure and an invisible body of believers. Anyone baptized in the trinitarian formula becomes a member of the Body of Christ - the Church. Some of the members of the Church are not in full communion with it.
The Church - both visible and spiritual
L
Lampo
Guest
CCC - 838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” 322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” 323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.” 324
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
E
edjco
Guest
The booth thing is merely for privacy, but confession can be done pretty much anywhere. It doesn’t require a “little booth”.
They did go about preaching the Gospel, and they also went out forgiving sins, just as priests continue to do 2,000 years later.
As for you saying you don’t see any authority granted to Catholic priests, it may be because you don’t want to see it. There are plenty of Scriptural references above that you possibly didn’t look at. There are plenty of instances of OT priests and NT apostles forgiving sins. Jesus used, and continues to use, men to heal the soul. Now, if Jesus gave this authority to forgive sins to the apostles, and there is no Scriptural basis to believe that He removed this gift (first of all, why would He?) and if we know from Acts that successors were chosen for instance to replace Judas, then wouldn’t it make perfect sense that this authority was passed down? And if that authority were passed down, well then let’s trace to whom it was passed. It was passed to the Church which to this day can claim Apostolic Succession!
Actually, there were 12 apostles, then one was gone. Then that one was replaced. Then as those 12 were gone, more were replaced. Or, do you think that they stopped replacing apostles just because the Bible stopped at that point?
How do you know you are forgiven? Think about it, how do you really know. You are acknowledging that Jesus gave a special gift (called the Ministry of Reconciliation in the NT) to the apostles to forgive sins. With absolutely no scriptural basis, you seem to feel that Jesus removed this gift at some point in time. He instituted it, then removed it, although it’s not mentioned in the Bible. If Jesus thought this sacrament was important enough to institute, why would he remove it?
Matthew 9:6-8: But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”-he then said to the paralytic, “Rise, pick up your stretcher, and go home.” He rose and went home. When the crowds saw this they were struck with awe and glorified God who had given such authority to men.” Note here it says “men”. Plural. This verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.”
I can tell you why you don’t believe in it. It’s because your church does not believe in it. And your church does not believe in it because it’s leaders know they have not been granted this authority, so it’s much easier to dismiss. They know they have not been granted this authority because they can’t claim Apostolic Succession.
The sad fact is that you just don’t know what you are missing. If you were “saved” as an adult and baptized, I know what a special feeling that is, and so do you. What you don’t understand is that we Catholics get that same feeling over and over again when we hear the words of absolution from the priest. It’s part of the whole “fullness of the faith” that non Catholic Christians miss out on.
I also wish you a blessed Christmas. We have that one in common for sure!
T
TobyLue
Guest
WindGirl
Say I go and break into you house. I steal some jewelry, a couple of hundred dollars that you had been saving for a rainy day, TV, DVD, etc. vandalize your house and take your car/van. Afterwards I feel bad repent so I go to God and confess my sins, and since I have already been forgiven can I say that is the end of it? Yes, according to you. Yes, my sins have been forgiven because I was truly sorry, but what about all those things I took. I already sold all the merchandize, spent the money and wrecked your car/van. Am I off scott free? I don’t have to repay you for all the damage since my sins are forgiven and Jesus already paid the price for my sins? A priest would make my penance to repay for all those things I took but according to you I don’t have to do anything. Right? Many times in confession, the priest will tell us things that we don’t like to hear, but we have to hear. Reminds me also of the story that this guy stole a bike. He told his friends, “I already confessed to God my crime, and guess what? He told I me was forgiven and to keep the bike.”
Then Christ was a failure…
OH, and never say never. I know some posters on another forum who said exactly the same thing about four years ago, They went on anti-catholic rants, but then started to do research everytime they disagreed with some of the Catholic Churchs teachings and now they are staunch defenders of the Catholic Faith. I’m sure there are some here that said the same thing sometime back.
God Bless and also Merry Christ Mass.
No WG - penance is not trying to appease God for our Sins. It’s to remove the consequences of sin. Your way of just going to God to confess is like this:
Say I go and break into you house. I steal some jewelry, a couple of hundred dollars that you had been saving for a rainy day, TV, DVD, etc. vandalize your house and take your car/van. Afterwards I feel bad repent so I go to God and confess my sins, and since I have already been forgiven can I say that is the end of it? Yes, according to you. Yes, my sins have been forgiven because I was truly sorry, but what about all those things I took. I already sold all the merchandize, spent the money and wrecked your car/van. Am I off scott free? I don’t have to repay you for all the damage since my sins are forgiven and Jesus already paid the price for my sins? A priest would make my penance to repay for all those things I took but according to you I don’t have to do anything. Right? Many times in confession, the priest will tell us things that we don’t like to hear, but we have to hear. Reminds me also of the story that this guy stole a bike. He told his friends, “I already confessed to God my crime, and guess what? He told I me was forgiven and to keep the bike.”
I don’t need a human priest. I have a Priest. His name is Christ. I’m forgiven and I’ve never been in a little* booth with a Catholic priest. Nor will I ever by nor do I sense any need to be.*Think on this for a moment WG. If the authority that Christ gave His apostles died with their death, then who had the authority to canonize the Bible. By what authority did the disciples of the apostles go around teaching, they had no authority because according to you Jesus only gave His apostles this authority and that authority died with them. If that is true, then all of Christianity if for naught, its all gone with the death of the Apostles, we are still in our sin and are doomed.
Then Christ was a failure…
OH, and never say never. I know some posters on another forum who said exactly the same thing about four years ago, They went on anti-catholic rants, but then started to do research everytime they disagreed with some of the Catholic Churchs teachings and now they are staunch defenders of the Catholic Faith. I’m sure there are some here that said the same thing sometime back.
God Bless and also Merry Christ Mass.
W
WindGirl
Guest
You misunderstand me. I didn’t say we shouln’t make amends, if possible to people we’ve wronged. I don’t believe in stealing a bike and then asking forigiveness and keeping it. What I’m saying is that as far as the sin before God is concerned, I cannot make up to Him or pay to Him for what I’ve done. Christ has already paid for it on the cross. I accept His forgiveness, I don’t try to earn it. I don’t believe in double jeopardy.
I’m sorry, I just do not believe my salvation and forgiveness is tied to confessing to Catholic priests. Jesus is my Priest, I’m not told I need any other. I know it’s real easy to read anything you like into Scripture but I just don’t see an establishment of a NT priesthood standing between the believer and Christ. The veil in the temple has been rent. Why do you seem so fearful to go directly to God Himself? Why can’t you believe you’re forgiven unless another sinful human tells you you are? And how does He know your heart and mind ? He can’t. How does he know if a person has ever really truly put their faith in Christ or not? The way has been opened by Christ to direct access to God. I’ve belonged to Him for over 30 years now and I’ve never confessed anything to any Catholic priest nor will I ever do so. No matter what other posters have said.
I’m sorry, I just do not believe my salvation and forgiveness is tied to confessing to Catholic priests. Jesus is my Priest, I’m not told I need any other. I know it’s real easy to read anything you like into Scripture but I just don’t see an establishment of a NT priesthood standing between the believer and Christ. The veil in the temple has been rent. Why do you seem so fearful to go directly to God Himself? Why can’t you believe you’re forgiven unless another sinful human tells you you are? And how does He know your heart and mind ? He can’t. How does he know if a person has ever really truly put their faith in Christ or not? The way has been opened by Christ to direct access to God. I’ve belonged to Him for over 30 years now and I’ve never confessed anything to any Catholic priest nor will I ever do so. No matter what other posters have said.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Personally, I see nothing terribly wrong with confessing to a priest. Admitting your are imperfect and make mistakes face to face with a real live person is humbling and strengthening at the same time.
The Bible says Therefore, make it your habit to confess your sins to one another and to pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16
(note this says one another, not priest.)
Where there is a problem is the false idea that we can’t be forgiven or we can’t know for certain we are forgiven without a priest.
No where does the Bible say go to a priest to be forgiven.
But it is clear, we have one mediator.
Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And** if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.**
Not one place does it say we need to go to a priest to receive forgiveness.
The Bible is clear only God can forgive sins. The Scriptures do not contradict each other. Priests do not have the power to forgive sins as God forgives sins.
The Bible says Therefore, make it your habit to confess your sins to one another and to pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16
(note this says one another, not priest.)
Where there is a problem is the false idea that we can’t be forgiven or we can’t know for certain we are forgiven without a priest.
No where does the Bible say go to a priest to be forgiven.
But it is clear, we have one mediator.
Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And** if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.**
Not one place does it say we need to go to a priest to receive forgiveness.
The Bible is clear only God can forgive sins. The Scriptures do not contradict each other. Priests do not have the power to forgive sins as God forgives sins.
F
ferdie
Guest
If priest have no God given power to forgive sins does that mean they also have no power or authority to marry a couple? Coz I am just a little confuse when our Lord Jesus said that what God has put together let no man put asunder.** How and to what means did God put people together?** Did these people come directly to God and asked permission to get married And they get the ok from God or some man with authority from God (like priest) married these people?
G
Ginger2
Guest
Adam and Eve are the model for marriage. That is how God designed His plan from the beginning; that men and women should marry and produce children.
There were no priests. The first priest appears in Genesis 14.
I’m not sure when priests began performing marriage ceremonies.
Hebrew men and women were considered legally married as soon as they were pledged to each other - before they began cohabitation. Their is no mention of a ceremony, only a celebration when they were ready to began cohabiting and consummate the marriage.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Thank you for that link.
Here is one an excerpt:
Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.
This interpretation is flawed. When Jesus proved he had authority to forgive sins, it stood as proof to the Jews that Jesus was God because only God can forgive sins.
Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
Mar 2:7 Why doth this [man] thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
Mat 9:2-3 …Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man] blasphemeth.
If the Apostles could forgive sins, it would be evidence to them that the Apostles were God.
The Jews were still persecuting the Apostles, yet they never accused them of claiming to forgive sins.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Hmmm…then I apologize for attributing some of your short, sarcastic, non-answers to youth…Wrong. I’m over 50.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Joe Mizzi?
John Martignoni dismantled poor Joe rather handily in their debate found here:
biblechristiansociety.com/page/FaithAndWorksInJustification
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
No, “we” (meaning we Catholics and you, a non-Catholic) are NOT His Church for you are not in full communion with His Church. You are a Christian, but you are separated from the fullness of His Body.
From Dominus Iesus:
- Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60
“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66
The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67
F
ferdie
Guest
Adam and Eve are the first people of God. Only God can marry them. Who pledge Hebrew men and women together?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
The “power” to forgive and retain sins. You still haven’t interacted with the scriptures in Post #16. Why does the Bible say that God had given the power to forgive sins to “men” (plural) and not to a “man” (Jesus)? Wasn’t the gospel written decades after this incident? Therefore, doesn’t this passage reveal that the author of the gospel was familiar with the practice of confession and forgiveness???
Not at first, of course. The Church was not big enough for this to be a necessity. Only later did the population of the Church require that priests be available to hear the confessions of large numbers of people.
Do priests today spend ALL their time sitting in “little booths”? Or do they preach homilies, visit the sick in hospitals, comfort the dying, etc? Do they EVER do any of the things that you consider more important than helping sinners be reconciled to God through confession?
If I preach the gospel to a lost soul on a street corner, I may have pointed the way for him, but I have not forgiven his sins. Your argument is empty.
Ooh, what a giveaway.
Correct. There are no more apostles…you agree with the Catholic Church here. But I’m curious…where does your Bible tell you that there are to be no more apostles? Is that idea based on scripture or upon tradition?
We all do. However, Jesus Himself established the priesthood. Therefore, if you wish to be faithful to Christ, you must be faithful to the normative means by which he intended for you to be reconciled to Himself and to His body, the Church. This means is known as the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Careful…you’re only 50.
Many converts to the Catholic faith have uttered words like these! 
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Here are three articles by three famous authors who are all converts to the Catholic faith. They once believed exactly as you do.
Did Jesus Give Priests to the Church?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0404sbs.asp
Why We Have a Ministerial Priesthood
By Tim Staples
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea4.asp
The Office of New Testament Priest
by James Akin
cin.org/users/james/files/ntpriest.htm
G
Ginger2
Guest
Originally Posted by WindGirl View Post
God didn’t give Christians a church, we ARE His church.
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them from my hand. – John 10:27-28
I find it amusing the way Catholics claim to know the mind of God - claiming to know who is and isn’t fully joined in the body of Christ.
Mark 9:38-41
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.
Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.
If this man was not in full communion with the church, why didn’t Jesus say, “Call him to join us.”?
God didn’t give Christians a church, we ARE His church.
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God – John 1:12
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them from my hand. – John 10:27-28
I find it amusing the way Catholics claim to know the mind of God - claiming to know who is and isn’t fully joined in the body of Christ.
Mark 9:38-41
John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.”
Jesus replied, "Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me.
For whoever is not against us is for us.
Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward.
If this man was not in full communion with the church, why didn’t Jesus say, “Call him to join us.”?
G
Ginger2
Guest
First, Jesus wasn’t just a man. He was God incarnate.
Second, salvation is not dependent on perfect understanding of every single Scripture. However, contradicting Scriptures in forbidden.
Windgirl may correct me if I am wrong, but I believe we both agree, whatever God says is absolute truth and we accept it, even when we don’t fully understand. But we absolutely reject anything that contradicts what God has revealed to us in His Holy Scriptures, which are His inerrant Word to us.
What you claim contradicts Scripture.
We reject it because our allegiance lies with God - alone.
G
Ginger2
Guest
Mat 11:25 Jesus answered, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
No mention of specific individuals appointed priest here…
Hebrews 4:14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone to heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us live our lives consistent with our confession of faith.
The OT was a mere shadow of the better things to come. We no longer need a substitute. We have the perfect Jesus.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Jesus also spoke of leaving the 99 in the fold and going in search of the lost sheep - His sheep - who was separated from the others.
The Church did not exist until Good Friday or the day of Pentecost at the latest.
- Status