Split: Doesn't Purgatory demean the sacrifice of Christ?

[6fatboy6]

Jesus Christ died upon the cross to bear our sins and his righteousness was imputed to us, where is the need for purgatory? If we go back to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) before the atonement of Christ, he was counted as righteous by God by his faith, while he was still a sinner, so if you die in a state of righteousness then there is no need for purgatory. Someone sent me a verse to biblically defend purgatory, or at least part of one. Revelation 21:27-“nothing unclean will enter heaven”. If we are covered by the blood of Christ we arent unclean, he didnt die to get us half way to heaven. Im not suggesting antinomianism where you simply believe and then live any life that you want. But I believe that even if you are suggesting a need for purgatory then you cheapen the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Maybe I am just stuck on what I believe but I am sure that we ALL have no problem accepting that our sins were imputed to Jesus, so why wouldnt his righteousness be imputed back to us be enough. Because of our sins being imputed to Jesus, God was able to justly punish sin and be justified in declaring us righteous.

 

[Against_Heresy]

Jesus Christ died upon the cross to bear our sins and his righteousness was imputed to us, where is the need for purgatory? If we go back to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) before the atonement of Christ, he was counted as righteous by God by his faith, while he was still a sinner, so if you die in a state of righteousness then there is no need for purgatory. Someone sent me a verse to biblically defend purgatory, or at least part of one. Revelation 21:27-“nothing unclean will enter heaven”. If we are covered by the blood of Christ we arent unclean, he didnt die to get us half way to heaven. Im not suggesting antinomianism where you simply believe and then live any life that you want. But I believe that even if you are suggesting a need for purgatory then you cheapen the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Maybe I am just stuck on what I believe but I am sure that we ALL have no problem accepting that our sins were imputed to Jesus, so why wouldnt his righteousness be imputed back to us be enough. Because of our sins being imputed to Jesus, God was able to justly punish sin and be justified in declaring us righteous.

My friend I have a lot to say concerning you comment, so instead of hijacking this thread and turning it into a debate, I would like to talk with you.
Brother would you be happy to have a dialogue with me concerning justification and salvation? Your understanding on justification, salvation, imputed righteousness and the consequence of Christ’s sacrifice under my Catholic understanding is in heresy. Would you be happy to discuss these topics with me? Starting off with Justification then so on…So are you up for it?

God bless

God bless.

 

[6fatboy6]

Why would you consider my comments hijacking this thread if the name of the thread is “confused about purgatory”? I believe I had a valid guestion, the very reason that I came to this site was to get answers. I would think that I was at least entitled to an opinion even if it differed from yours. Im not going to come on here and be nasty and disrespectful to catholicism, that is not my intention. I understand that my position is considered heresy to you but catholicism is considered heresy to other religions too. So, that being said, if you have a question about the cathlic faith, what better way to get one than to come here. I see nothing wrong with the comments that I made, if you feel that im wrong, kindly correct me. If im “confused about purgatory” and you have the answers, feel free to enlighten me. I was not aware that I posed an attack, I merely asked a question and stated my position to see where we differ.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Off topic debate posts have been split off here so that that discussion can continue.

 

[Nita]

Jesus Christ died upon the cross to bear our sins and his righteousness was imputed to us, where is the need for purgatory? If we go back to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) before the atonement of Christ, he was counted as righteous by God by his faith, while he was still a sinner, so if you die in a state of righteousness then there is no need for purgatory. Someone sent me a verse to biblically defend purgatory, or at least part of one. Revelation 21:27-“nothing unclean will enter heaven”. If we are covered by the blood of Christ we arent unclean, he didnt die to get us half way to heaven. Im not suggesting antinomianism where you simply believe and then live any life that you want. But I believe that even if you are suggesting a need for purgatory then you cheapen the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Maybe I am just stuck on what I believe but I am sure that we ALL have no problem accepting that our sins were imputed to Jesus, so why wouldnt his righteousness be imputed back to us be enough. Because of our sins being imputed to Jesus, God was able to justly punish sin and be justified in declaring us righteous.

Purgatory does not in the least demean Our Lord’s sacrifice. It is Our Lord’s sacrifice that made Purgatory possible for us. (People in Purgatory are saved.) Without Our Lord’s sacrifice we would all have been condemned to hell - no heaven or purgatory possible for us.

It is the saving grace of God’s supernatural life (merited for us by Jesus) present and working in us that enables us to be truly cleansed of sin — not just a “pretend” cleansing, so to speak where God covers/imputes us in some way with Our Lord’s righteousness, but allows us to remain in our sinful state. And then He looks at us and says “we” are clean, even when actually we aren’t. I can never understand how someone could think God can be fooled as to our true state - or not care about our true state - or lie about our true state, saying we are clean when He knows we are still full of the uncleaness of sin.

Often “salvation from sin” is understood only as “salvation from the punishment due to sin”, where we really haven’t been saved/cured of the sin. (Kind of like a leper who would go to Jesus, and Jesus, rather than healing him, would take off His robe and cover Him completely so that His leprosy would no longer be visible when people looked at him. Now, what kind of “salvation from leprosy” would that be?

1 Cor 3:15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though **he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. **

Please note that it is not just his unworthy works that must be purged, but the saved man himself who must pass through the cleansing/purifying fire.

 

[Pitcharan]

Jesus Christ died upon the cross to bear our sins and his righteousness was imputed to us, where is the need for purgatory? If we go back to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) before the atonement of Christ, he was counted as righteous by God by his faith, while he was still a sinner, so if you die in a state of righteousness then there is no need for purgatory. Someone sent me a verse to biblically defend purgatory, or at least part of one. Revelation 21:27-“nothing unclean will enter heaven”. If we are covered by the blood of Christ we arent unclean, he didnt die to get us half way to heaven. Im not suggesting antinomianism where you simply believe and then live any life that you want. But I believe that even if you are suggesting a need for purgatory then you cheapen the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Maybe I am just stuck on what I believe but I am sure that we ALL have no problem accepting that our sins were imputed to Jesus, so why wouldnt his righteousness be imputed back to us be enough. Because of our sins being imputed to Jesus, God was able to justly punish sin and be justified in declaring us righteous.

To appreciate the need for purgatory we must understand the salvation process made crystal clear by our Lord’s life and teachings. The eternal punishment we incur for our sins is firstly canceled by the process called JUSTIFICATION and the defilement that causes us to sin is cleansed by the process called SANCTIFICATION.

JUSTIFICATION or removal of sins: Sin is a debt that we cannot repay as Satan claims our souls; yet God who has ransomed us with the blood of His Son, is able to cancel the debt of sin for many good reasons:* “Love covers a multitude of sins; if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you”*. (1Pet 4:8b, Mt 6:14)

SANCTIFICATION or freedom from slavery to sin: Suffering is the only remedy available for cleansing interior defilement and uprooting the very cause of sin. Recall what our Lord taught: “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ‘For everyone will be salted with fire’.” (Mk 9:43, 49)

To stop sinning is humanly impossible and yet our helplessness is not futility for our God is ‘the help of the helpless’ Whose power is made perfect in our weakness. The battle is truly His and we only have to show our love by refusing to remain slaves and struggling. Freedom is achieved through complete purging of our sinful nature by our own sufferings which can only increase manifold if avoided now and kept for purgation after death.

 

[catholictiger]

Jesus Christ died upon the cross to bear our sins and his righteousness was imputed to us, where is the need for purgatory? If we go back to Abraham (Genesis 15:6) before the atonement of Christ, he was counted as righteous by God by his faith, while he was still a sinner, so if you die in a state of righteousness then there is no need for purgatory. Someone sent me a verse to biblically defend purgatory, or at least part of one. Revelation 21:27-“nothing unclean will enter heaven”. If we are covered by the blood of Christ we arent unclean, he didnt die to get us half way to heaven. Im not suggesting antinomianism where you simply believe and then live any life that you want. But I believe that even if you are suggesting a need for purgatory then you cheapen the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Maybe I am just stuck on what I believe but I am sure that we ALL have no problem accepting that our sins were imputed to Jesus, so why wouldnt his righteousness be imputed back to us be enough. Because of our sins being imputed to Jesus, God was able to justly punish sin and be justified in declaring us righteous.

simple question for you if everyone’s sins are forgiven then why would anyone go to hell?

 

[6fatboy6]

Thank you for your answers but I am looking for something in the bible that affirms more than than the concept or need for purgatory. Where do you feel that I am confused if we I believe that the blood of Christ covered my sins? No works that I can add will add anything to the atonement of Jesus Christ.

 

[catholictiger]

Thank you for your answers but I am looking for something in the bible that affirms more than than the concept or need for purgatory. Where do you feel that I am confused if we I believe that the blood of Christ covered my sins? No works that I can add will add anything to the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Christ talks about paying off the last debt before you go to the judge, do you remember this passage in scripture.

this one is a very clear affirmation of purgatory.

every sin mortal and venial (serious and not so serious) has a punishment attached to that sin. We must look for a way to be forgiven of this sin and pay off that punishment. Now Luckily for us Christ’s sacrifice has given us all the graces we need to be forgiven of that punishment. But that doesn’t mean that once you say oh I’m sorry Lord, that sin is forgiven. You must go to confession and pay off the debt of those sins through your penance.

Christ’s sacrifise is why this is possible for us. We can’t offer anything to God that will be a legit sacrifice to God that will forgive anything we have ever done. It takes Christ who is true God and True man to be able to do it.

But its not just Christ’s action that grants us salvation its our effort too. If we don’t put forward the effort to seek forgiveness then we cannot obtain salvation.

Edit: here is the passage

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5: 25-26[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

I believe that even if you are suggesting a need for purgatory then you cheapen the redemptive work of Christ on the cross.

Understand that Purgatory is God’s mercy at work, and it takes place, either in this present life, or in the next, after our body dies. If you do not die as a perfect saint, then you are purified in Purgatory. You have a lifetime on earth to become perfect with the help of God’s sanctifying grace, but unless you are perfect, you will not enter heaven. Thus Jesus said: “Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.” If you die in a state of friendship with God but have not yet achieved perfection, The Blood of Christ purifies you in Purgatory.

Christ tells us that we cannot be His disciple unless we pick up our cross daily and follow Him. And what is the cross? The cross is suffering. We must pick up or cross and follow Jesus Christ. And where did Jesus take His cross? To calvary. The same thing must be in our life. Those who die in God’s grace but do not completely die to self and to attachments of the world are purified in Purgatory. Jesus Himself alludes to Purgatory, for example, in Matthew 5:23-26 He tells us:

[22] . . . “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.* Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. ***

But your problem with purgatory is deeper than you think. Never forget that Christianity is not founded on the Bible and that Jesus did not hand out Bibles; instead, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior established His Church and gave her authority to teach throughout the ages, and it is through the Church that God gave us the Bible. Unfortunately, people since the heresy of Martin Luther in the 16th Century have been putting their faith in self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters (false teachers) who think they know better than the teachings of the Church…

 

[Pitcharan]

Thank you for your answers but I am looking for something in the bible that affirms more than than the concept or need for purgatory. Where do you feel that I am confused if we I believe that the blood of Christ covered my sins? No works that I can add will add anything to the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

 

[mcrow]

Thank you for your answers but I am looking for something in the bible that affirms more than than the concept or need for purgatory. Where do you feel that I am confused if we I believe that the blood of Christ covered my sins? No works that I can add will add anything to the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Given that Protestants took Maccabees out of the bible just for the purpose of denying purgatory, it’s going to be difficult to convince you of this:

“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45).

 

[6fatboy6]

I have a catholic bible, if you feel maccabees will clear this up I will read it.

 

[mcrow]

I have a catholic bible, if you feel maccabees will clear this up I will read it.

It will help, burt the heart of it is the quote above from Maccabees.

“Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin”

Why would you make atonement for the dead so be freed from sin if there wasn’t purgatory? Why would you pray for the dead at all if they were either in heaven or in hell (places that are one way streets)?

 

[6fatboy6]

Let me ask this question. If we have had all of these great minds that have come along, Aquinas, Augustine, I dont want to sit here and list a million names, you get my point. Why isnt there one absolute religion, one absolute bible, one doctrine on every issue. The doctrine of justification has been debated since the 16th century without a clear resolve. How can anyone say without any doubt that their religion is the ONE with all of the right answers so that there would be no more he said, she said. There is purgatory, there is no purgatory. I think its a fair question. You say catholicism, I say protestantism. Whos right, my answer or your answer. No disrespect but I dont see any religion as perfect so if we ONLY go by the bible and let it stand on its own, if I pick up a King James than there is no purgatory, if I pick up a catholic bible there is. Can anyone see where I am going with this?

 

[mcrow]

Let me ask this question. If we have had all of these great minds that have come along, Aquinas, Augustine, I dont want to sit here and list a million names, you get my point. Why isnt there one absolute religion, one absolute bible, one doctrine on every issue. The doctrine of justification has been debated since the 16th century without a clear resolve. How can anyone say without any doubt that their religion is the ONE with all of the right answers so that there would be no more he said, she said. There is purgatory, there is no purgatory. I think its a fair question. You say catholicism, I say protestantism. Whos right, my answer or your answer. No disrespect but I dont see any religion as perfect so if we ONLY go by the bible and let it stand on its own, if I pick up a King James than there is no purgatory, if I pick up a catholic bible there is. Can anyone see where I am going with this?

This is simple:

"… you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church… He added: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

Peter was clearly made the first Pope to lead the Church Jesus meant to be. The Catholic Church compiled the bible.

 

[catholictiger]

Let me ask this question. If we have had all of these great minds that have come along, Aquinas, Augustine, I dont want to sit here and list a million names, you get my point. Why isnt there one absolute religion, one absolute bible, one doctrine on every issue. The doctrine of justification has been debated since the 16th century without a clear resolve. How can anyone say without any doubt that their religion is the ONE with all of the right answers so that there would be no more he said, she said. There is purgatory, there is no purgatory. I think its a fair question. You say catholicism, I say protestantism. Whos right, my answer or your answer. No disrespect but I dont see any religion as perfect so if we ONLY go by the bible and let it stand on its own, if I pick up a King James than there is no purgatory, if I pick up a catholic bible there is. Can anyone see where I am going with this?

you just explained why it is necessary to have a authority on belief.

you think its the bible, and only the bible,

we think you need more then the bible.

plus as you mentioned if there are different versions of the same bible, whose is correct? CAn you know without just looking at the bible itself?

 

[pablope]

Thank you for your answers but I am looking for something in the bible that affirms more than than the concept or need for purgatory. Where do you feel that I am confused if we I believe that the blood of Christ covered my sins? No works that I can add will add anything to the atonement of Jesus Christ.

On Purgatory…

Here is some biblical references: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

I think someone qouted this already…1Cor3:10-15-

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

 

[adrift]

I have a catholic bible, if you feel maccabees will clear this up I will read it.

Luke Chapter 12
58: As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. 59: I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper

Why would Jesus say this?
Jesus also said

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Also there is this

Matthew Chapter 12
32: And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

This shows that something happens after death.

 

[pablope]

Let me ask this question. If we have had all of these great minds that have come along, Aquinas, Augustine, I dont want to sit here and list a million names, you get my point.