Split: Doesn't Purgatory demean the sacrifice of Christ?

[ChrisRedfield47]

Let me ask this question. If we have had all of these great minds that have come along, Aquinas, Augustine, I dont want to sit here and list a million names, you get my point. Why isnt there one absolute religion, one absolute bible, one doctrine on every issue. The doctrine of justification has been debated since the 16th century without a clear resolve. How can anyone say without any doubt that their religion is the ONE with all of the right answers so that there would be no more he said, she said. There is purgatory, there is no purgatory. I think its a fair question. You say catholicism, I say protestantism. Whos right, my answer or your answer. No disrespect but I dont see any religion as perfect so if we ONLY go by the bible and let it stand on its own, if I pick up a King James than there is no purgatory, if I pick up a catholic bible there is. Can anyone see where I am going with this?

St. Basil the Great (329 to 379 AD): “that the purgatorial fire may entirely feed on and devour it… It does not threaten utter ruin altogether, but it means cleansing according to the opinion of the Apostle Paul: ‘But he himself shall be saved yet as so through fire’” 1 Corinthians 3:15

St. Jerome (347 - 419 AD): “…for every Mass devoutly celebrated, many souls leave Purgatory and fly to Heaven.”

St. Cyril of Alexandria, Patriarch of Alexandria: “All the tortures that one can conceive of in this world are refreshing compared with the least pain of Purgatory.”

Gregory the Great (590-604 AD): “Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven ‘either in this world or in the world to come’(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions.”

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire 1 Corinthians 3:15 (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]).

St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430AD): “If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were,** by fire**; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works (1 Corinthians 3:15).”

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

Cyprian (200 to 258 AD): It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord. (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

“Origen of Alexandria (185 to about 254 AD): If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.”

“We read in the books of the Maccabees 2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place” (The Care to be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).

• Augustine

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Let me ask this question. If we have had all of these great minds that have come along, Aquinas, Augustine, I dont want to sit here and list a million names, you get my point. Why isnt there one absolute religion, one absolute bible, one doctrine on every issue. The doctrine of justification has been debated since the 16th century without a clear resolve. How can anyone say without any doubt that their religion is the ONE with all of the right answers so that there would be no more he said, she said. There is purgatory, there is no purgatory. I think its a fair question. You say catholicism, I say protestantism. Whos right, my answer or your answer. No disrespect but I dont see any religion as perfect so if we ONLY go by the bible and let it stand on its own, if I pick up a King James than there is no purgatory, if I pick up a catholic bible there is. Can anyone see where I am going with this?

The problem is that all those who claim to go by the Bible alone disagree with each other. So it’s really just a question of authority. Jesus gave the Church authority to teach and to bind and loose things in heaven and on earth (Matt. 16:18). The Church will always teach the truth, thus Christ said “He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects you rejects me”. Yet Christ warned that there would be wolves among the sheep and weeds among the wheat. You need to realize that since the first century there have been traitors, liars, hypocrites, thieves, perverts and all sorts of scoundrels inside the visible Church on earth. Even among the twelve Apostles we had Judas Iscariot the traitor to Jesus Christ. So first get it straight that there was, is, and always will be wolves and weeds until the end of the world.

The problem with Protestantism is that there are verses in the Bible which Protestants simply ignore. For example, another reference to Purgatory by Christ Himself:

"In anger his master ** handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.* This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart." Matt. 18:34-35*

Protestants and Evangelicals are following the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura, which was invented in the 16th century removing themselves of the guidance and authority given to the Church. This has caused such divisions and confusion in Christianity that it laid the foundation for such groups as the LDS and Jehova’s Witnesses, ushering millions of souls into religions which deny the divinity of Christ.

if I pick up a King James than there is no purgatory

Why the King James Bible? Says who? King James? Why should we care about King James and his Bible?

 

[6fatboy6]

So then if a Baptist preacher preaches that there is no purgatory, is he under the anathema of God and condemned to hell? A Catholic priest and a Baptist preacher both honor and fear the Lord and preach what they are taught, no matter who is right or wrong they cant both be right. The bible is clear about false teaching.

 

[adrift]

So then if a Baptist preacher preaches that there is no purgatory, is he under the anathema of God and condemned to hell? A Catholic priest and a Baptist preacher both honor and fear the Lord and preach what they are taught, no matter who is right or wrong they cant both be right. The bible is clear about false teaching.

Only if he knows that he is giving a false teaching. Jesus said that His Church would last forever and the Holy Spirit would protect it. The Catholic Church has never taught heresy. It traces back to Jesus. Your Baptist preacher cannot say the same.

 

[mcrow]

So then if a Baptist preacher preaches that there is no purgatory, is he under the anathema of God and condemned to hell? A Catholic priest and a Baptist preacher both honor and fear the Lord and preach what they are taught, no matter who is right or wrong they cant both be right. The bible is clear about false teaching.

Catholics do not pretend to know who goest to hell and only a small number of people do we know for sure went to heaven (Saints).

However, if you deny a church teaching you put yourself at risk. You can be unsure or question a teaching but to flat out deny one is a sin and if you don’t repent of course the teachings would say you could go to hell for it.

OTOH, the baptist preacher is much more likely to got to hell for living outside the church and not taking part in the Eucharist, not to mention false teaching.

 

[Jacob50]

So then if a Baptist preacher preaches that there is no purgatory, is he under the anathema of God and condemned to hell? A Catholic priest and a Baptist preacher both honor and fear the Lord and preach what they are taught, no matter who is right or wrong they cant both be right. The bible is clear about false teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches that protestant can go to heaven too.

However, I would say that the chances a Catholic (a practicing one) has compared to a protestant in terms of going to heaven, are bigger. For one reason: The Sacraments.
Protestant lack sacraments, most only have Matrimony and Baptism, but that’s it. Some don’t even have these or are in doubt to be valid. But Catholics have the Eucharist, Confession etc. The lack of these is a huge difference.

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

So then if a Baptist preacher preaches that there is no purgatory, is he under the anathema of God and condemned to hell? A Catholic priest and a Baptist preacher both honor and fear the Lord and preach what they are taught, no matter who is right or wrong they cant both be right. The bible is clear about false teaching.

If a man teaches that there is no Purgatory, then he is a false teacher; though he could be doing it out of ignorance. Regardless, he would still be a false and blind teacher, who teaches without authority. I suspect most blind teachers may be well intentioned on a certain level, but deep down are driven by pride, thinking they know better than the Church—proud especially when much evidence is put before them that they are wrong and that they have no authority to teach…

Would such a teacher go to Hell? Maybe, maybe not, only God judges–but if not, then definitely lots of purgatory time…

 

[mcrow]

The Catholic Church teaches that protestant can go to heaven too.

However, I would say that the chances a Catholic (a practicing one) has compared to a protestant in terms of going to heaven, are bigger. For one reason: The Sacraments.
Protestant lack sacraments, most only have Matrimony and Baptism, but that’s it. Some don’t even have these or are in doubt to be valid. But Catholics have the Eucharist, Confession etc. The lack of these is a huge difference.

A non-Catholic can go to heaven if they, through no fault of their own, ingnorant of the Church’s teachings. I would find it hard to believe that a minister that went through a seminary would qualify, but I’m not God either.

 

[6fatboy6]

Correct me if im wrong. Because I am not Catholic but I have asked about purgatory, if I still choose not to believe then my salvation is not guaranteed?

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Ultimately you will not be judged by your religion or theology but on love. Thus the example Christ gives of the separation between the sheep and the goats. The goats were a selfish bunch. As for salvation, this is in peril even for those who have the truth about Jesus Christ, since Jesus Himself said that the worst thing you can be is lukewarm toward God. Lukewarm are those who know the truth yet are lazy or indifferent toward serving God. Jesus gave many parables about lazy servants who knew the Master. So each will be judged depending on what they were given in life. Those who were given much (Catholics) much will be required. Catholics have the treasure of the True Faith, and the 7 sacraments, which are the primary means to receive sanctifying grace. Protestants only have 2 valid sacraments and have an incomplete understanding of Christianity.

To SEE how YOU will actually be judged, CLICK HERE

But if there is any grave un-repented sin on your soul when you die, you too will be lost, just as any Catholic, regardless of the good you may have done…

 

[6fatboy6]

John 14:6-" I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Than my faith in the Lord outweighs any church, religion, or doctrine? I will be judged according to my faithfullness to the Lord whether I participate in 1 sacrament or 10,000?

 

[mcrow]

Correct me if im wrong. Because I am not Catholic but I have asked about purgatory, if I still choose not to believe then my salvation is not guaranteed?

Basically there is a basic salvation (baptism), but you must also have “fullness of the means of salvation” which means that you retain your righteousness thoughout life. To have the “fullness of the means of salvatation” you must take part in the sacraments of the Eucharist and confession.

Now denying purgatory is a sin and an uncofessed sin will not allow you to reatain the fullness of the means of salvation and you cannot take part in the Eucharist.

Essentially, Catholics believe that salvation is in flux depending on your faith and actions.

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

John 14:6-" I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Than my faith in the Lord outweighs any church, religion, or doctrine? I will be judged according to my faithfullness to the Lord whether I participate in 1 sacrament or 10,000?

He is indeed the way, truth and life. But it isn’t all just about faith, works are needed, and Sacraments are key to salvation. Look at the Eucharist.

"I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you."

John 6:48-53

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

John 14:6-" I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Than my faith in the Lord outweighs any church, religion, or doctrine? I will be judged according to my faithfullness to the Lord whether I participate in 1 sacrament or 10,000?

Everyone who gets saved are saved because of Christ, regardless if they realize it or not. After all, all the good people in the Old Testament who were saved never knew Christ, but they entered heaven because of Christ’s salvific action.

The Sacraments are the visible signs which give us sanctifying grace. The first Sacrament is Baptism, which makes us members of the Body of Christ. We cannot be saved without God’s grace. Thus the Sacraments help us to conquer slavery to sin, which separates us from God. Thus, even though one may be a member of the Body of Christ, they too can be cut off, as Scripture explains:

“See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22)

*"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27). *

You see, the salvation of your soul does not simply entail accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and savior; that’s merely the very first step. What follows is that one must sincerely repent of all sins and turn away from sin and believe in the gospel. Not your gospel interpretation—but the gospel of Christ as taught by His Church. Jesus said that the road to heaven was a tough narrow road with pitfalls, whereas the road which leads to damnation is wide and easy…

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

**6fatboy6 **

The Sacraments are there to help a soul in his or her journey to heaven, to help us conquer weaknesses and sin, which is what separates us from God. You see, If a man does not repent from sin it is impossible for him to be forgiven. May people are sorry for their sins, but then keep falling into the same sins that offend God.

This it is through divine help through the Sacraments that God gives us power to overcome sin and to do things in our life that we would never be able to accomplish on our own. To give you an example of the sins we Catholics mus avoid and conquer, here is a basic Examination of Conscience list, which we ponder and reflect upon before we confess our sins. Catholics are called to do regular examinations of conscience in order to see who we really are and to know what must be change in our life.

Here is a basic EXAMINATION OF CONSCIENCE, a list of questions that help examine a Catholic explore his or her conscience to uncover any sin on the soul that needs to be confessed and repented of. .Click and scroll down to see how many things you are guilty of…

 

[pablope]

So then if a Baptist preacher preaches that there is no purgatory, is he under the anathema of God and condemned to hell? A Catholic priest and a Baptist preacher both honor and fear the Lord and preach what they are taught, no matter who is right or wrong they cant both be right. The bible is clear about false teaching.

Here is my suggestion to further your investigation:

What did the early Church believe and taught on purgatory? Have you looked at what the Early Church Fathers believed and taught about purgatory?

If your Baptist preacher denies purgatory, why is he denying it? Where from did he learn that there is no purgatory?

My suggestion is for you to dig down deeply as to how Protestants started to deny purgatory, you will be surprised.

 

[mcrow]

**6fatboy6 **

The Sacraments are there to help a soul in his or her journey to heaven, to help us conquer weaknesses and sin, which is what separates us from God. You see, If a man does not repent from sin it is impossible for him to be forgiven. May people are sorry for their sins, but then keep falling into the same sins that offend God.

This it is through divine help through the Sacraments that God gives us power to overcome sin and to do things in our life that we would never be able to accomplish on our own. To give you an example of the sins we Catholics mus avoid and conquer, here is a basic Examination of Conscience list, which we ponder and reflect upon before we confess our sins. Catholics are called to do regular examinations of conscience in order to see who we really are and to know what must be change in our life.

Here is a basic EXAMINATION OF CONSCIENCE, a list of questions that help examine a Catholic explore his or her conscience to uncover any sin on the soul that needs to be confessed and repented of. .Click and scroll down to see how many things you are guilty of…

Exactly, I go to daily mass as much as possible for this fact. It helps me overcome my weaknesses and to avoid sinning as much as possible. I confess frequently for the same reason. I don’t know that I’ll go to Heaven or not but I’m pretty sure I wont if I don’t take part in the sacraments because my sins go rampant and unconfessed. Mass and confession keep me on the path.

 

[pablope]

Correct me if im wrong. Because I am not Catholic but I have asked about purgatory, if I still choose not to believe then my salvation is not guaranteed?

Nobody’s salvation is guaranteed. This is another protestant innovation.

You have free will, you have been given scriptural evidence and someone quoted to you the ECFs on what they taught about purgatory, on what the early christians believed, and still taught by the CC.

It is up to you to decide whether it is reasonable to believe or not. I would also suggest that you think deeply about it, be open to the HS to guide you and help you.

God bless…

 

[Contarini]

Jesus Christ died upon the cross to bear our sins and his righteousness was imputed to us, where is the need for purgatory?

First of all, the concept of Jesus’ righteousness being imputed to us is not Biblical.

Secondly, even if it is correct, don’t you want to be holy? Don’t you want your desires to be transformed so that you love God and other people the way Jesus does?

The Protestant Reformers never taught, as you seem to do, that sanctification (intrinsically becoming holy) doesn’t matter. And of course Scripture teaches no such thing.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but if you think sanctification (in the traditional sense–actually becoming holy in your desires and dispositions, and thus of course also in your actions) is important than your case against Purgatory collapses.

Im not suggesting antinomianism where you simply believe and then live any life that you want.

Then your argument makes no sense.

Let’s stop putting in terms of what you can do or what you must do. Let’s talk about what, through the Holy Spirit groaning in us, we want to do. I know that insofar as I follow the voice of the Holy Spirit I want to become holy. I am profoundly, unspeakably grateful that God forgives my sins. But I don’t want to spend eternity sinning and being forgiven. I want to stop sinning.

Maybe I am just stuck on what I believe but I am sure that we ALL have no problem accepting that our sins were imputed to Jesus, so why wouldnt his righteousness be imputed back to us be enough. Because of our sins being imputed to Jesus, God was able to justly punish sin and be justified in declaring us righteous.

Actually, you are wrong in thinking that we all agree on this. The whole concept of imputed righteousness is, in my opinion, a late medieval/early modern Western innovation that has gotten us all mixed up.

When Paul says that God “made Jesus to be sin” for us, I don’t think he’s talking about a legal imputation, but about a mystical, ontological identification. That may seem like just a semantic difference, but I think it has important implications.

Jesus did not commit personal sin, but Jesus took on our human nature and thus took on the consequences of our sin. It’s not about legally imputing one person’s sin to some other completely different person, but about Jesus sharing our nature.

Similarly, salvation is about sharing Christ’s nature, not about a legal imputation of Christ’s righteousness to us.

Edwin