Split: Doesn't Purgatory demean the sacrifice of Christ?

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Genesis 15:6- “And he believed the Lord, and it was counted to him as righteousness”. What did he do besides believe? Are you trying to say that the Lord doesnt have the ability to declare someone righteous? He he hadnt been asked to sacrafice Isaac yet so there were no works involved.
 
Genesis 15:6- “And he believed the Lord, and it was counted to him as righteousness”. What did he do besides believe? Are you trying to say that the Lord doesnt have the ability to declare someone righteous? He he hadnt been asked to sacrafice Isaac yet so there were no works involved.
This would beg the question of why God would ask Abraham to sacrafice Isaac at the latter time.
 
Genesis 15:6- “And he believed the Lord, and it was counted to him as righteousness”. What did he do besides believe? Are you trying to say that the Lord doesnt have the ability to declare someone righteous? He he hadnt been asked to sacrafice Isaac yet so there were no works involved.
Before you make up your mind you might want to consider the Book of James… the book that Martin Luther wanted to eliminate. Speaking for myself…I would rather follow the Church of the Apostles and early fathers than the teachings of 16th century theologists…most of whom disagreed. Just a thought.🤷
I sense that you are a searcher and have an open mind, as I did back in 1998. I pray the HS will guide you and take you where you should be.
 
Genesis 15:6- “And he believed the Lord, and it was counted to him as righteousness”. What did he do besides believe? Are you trying to say that the Lord doesnt have the ability to declare someone righteous? He he hadnt been asked to sacrafice Isaac yet so there were no works involved.
From James 2…20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 **Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? **22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
Are you trying to say that the Lord doesnt have the ability to declare someone righteous?
Can you show or cite a biblical passage where some is declared righteous by God? I do not think God is blind, do you?

Here in Like 1… 5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.

Were Elizabeth and Zechariah declared righteous? Or did they make themselves righteous by “observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly.?”

In Matthew 25, parable of sheep and the goats…33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left…34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world…41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Were the goats declared righteous? The goats did not make themselves righteous, yet God did not see Jesus’ righteousness cover them.

The sheep were invited to the kingdom by making themselves righteous.
 
Yes I can. Genesis 15:6, like I said, how could Abraham be counted as righteous for offering to sacrafice Isaac when he was even born yet when God counted him as righteous. I have only two words for you my friend (faith alone).
 
Yes I can. Genesis 15:6, like I said, how could Abraham be counted as righteous for offering to sacrafice Isaac when he was even born yet when God counted him as righteous. I have only two words for you my friend (faith alone).
You forgot what I posted in James 2, my friend…and it is “not by faith alone.”

From James 2…20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together,** and his faith was made complete by what he did.** 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and** not by faith alone. **
 
Yes I can. Genesis 15:6, like I said, how could Abraham be counted as righteous for offering to sacrafice Isaac when he was even born yet when God counted him as righteous. I have only two words for you my friend (faith alone).
Does God declare that the unrighteous are righteoes or does He make the unrighteous righteous and then declare them righteous?

In scripture He says woe untio those who call evil good. If He calls the corrupt holy He does what He condemns. It would be a lie.

Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. If this is true and the saved who die imperfect must be made perfect in between here and heaven. You would not want to enter heaven full of corruption until you are purified.

A parable that Jesus gives about two men dying, although it is only allegorical reveals this purification.

Lazarus dies and goes to the busom of Abraham (heaven). A rich man dies and finds himself in terrible suffering. He calls out to Father Abraham (who prefigures God the Father) asking for relief. The first thing to notice is he hopes for relief. In hell there is no hope. When his request which is a prayer (souls in hell do not pray to God. They curse Him.), the man then requests (prays for) his brothers. He wills their good out of love for them. Souls in hell do not will the good of others. They do not pray for the good of others.
They have no hope for their suffering to be anything other than eternal. It will never be reduced or ended.

In this parable the rich man could not have been in hell. He was in the place Jesus described where he had to go to repay his debt to the last penny and would get out when He had. He hoped for his suffering to be lessened, for his thirst to be quenched.

He was in the place Paul described, not in this life, where his sins would be forgiven, but through fire.
 
“and his faith was made complete by what he did” then what did he do in 15 to be counted as righteous before Isaac was born, he had faith that God would give him the heir that he needed to create a great nation.
 
Matthew 5:16: “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”

Matthew 7:21 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew 7:24-27 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Matthew 16:27: “For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.”

Matthew 19:17: “‘Why do you ask me about what is good?’ Jesus replied. ‘There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.’”

Matthew 25:31-46 (part of The Sheep and the Goats): “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Luke 8:21: "But He answered and said to them, ‘My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.’ "

Luke 10:25-28: "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he asked, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ ‘What is written in the Law?’ he replied. ‘How do you read it?’ He answered: ’ “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind” '; and, ’ “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ’ ‘You have answered correctly,’ Jesus replied. ‘Do this and you will live.’ "

John 5:29: “And will come out–those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”
 
Acts 26:20: “First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.”

Romans 2:6,7; 13: “For he will repay according to each one’s deeds. To those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.”

Romans 2:16: “on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.”

Galatians 6:7b-9: “A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.”

1 Corinthians 7: 19: “Circumcision means nothing and uncircumicision means nothing; what matters is keeping God’s commandments.”

1 Corinthians 13:2-3: “And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.”

1 Corinthians 13:13: “And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.”

2 Corinthians 5:10: “For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done is his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

Philippians 2:12b-13: “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, For God is one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.”

1 Timothy 4:16: “Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.”

1 Timothy 6:18-19: “That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”

Hebrews 10:24: “And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.”

James 1:22: “Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”

James 2 (excerpts): “… What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? … Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? … Ye see then how that by works a man is justified.”

James 2:24: “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (Emphasis added) (In fact, this is the only time the phrase “faith alone” appears in the Scriptures.)

1 Peter 1:17: “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning.”

1 Peter 2:12: “Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.”

1 John 2:3-7: “We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, ‘I know him,’ but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.”

Revelation 2:23: “Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.”

Revelation 14:12-13: "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labours, for their deeds follow them.’ "
Revelation 20:13: “All the dead were judged according to their deeds.”

Revelation 22:12: “Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds.”
 
“and his faith was made complete by what he did” then what did he do in 15 to be counted as righteous before Isaac was born, he had faith that God would give him the heir that he needed to create a great nation.
Look at the bible as a whole, do not look only at the passages you want to follow your theology.

One must consider the entire scripture, and if we do so, we will have to conclude that works do matter.
 
“and his faith was made complete by what he did” then what did he do in 15 to be counted as righteous before Isaac was born, he had faith that God would give him the heir that he needed to create a great nation.
If you really have faith in Jesus, you will follow his commandments, and do what he has taught us to do. Otherwise, pure words wont help you.

Remember:
Matthew 7:21 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
 
6fatboy6

You have been provided with a mountain of reasons…all from the Bible…why cherry picking verses makes for skewed theology. The intellectual acceptance of the truth that Christ is the Son of God…faith alone…is not sufficient for salvation. This idea was the creation of 16th century theologists…you know, the ones I mentioned who did not agree with each other. " I did not want a pope…now I have a hundred." (Martin Luther)
 
I was making the point tp pablop because he keeps telling me it was what Abraham did when he went to sacrafice Isaac, so if thats the case (same person, same book)what did he do in 15:6 to be counted as righteous BEFORE Isaac was born? He had faith that God would give him an heir. Thats why I used that verse again. I defineately see your point, anyone can pull a random verse to try and make it say what they are looking for.
 
“and his faith was made complete by what he did” then what did he do in 15 to be counted as righteous before Isaac was born, he had faith that God would give him the heir that he needed to create a great nation.
But it was not complete, it was only completed when abram went to sacrifice Isaac, which was his “work”.

Abram’s trust in God, his perseverance, that he did not waver in his trust in what God told him…that was his “work”…he continued to walk in the ways of the Lord…and of course, the rest is the sacrifice of Isaac that made his faith complete.

Faith and works…my friend.
 
I never said that faith was sufficent, it is necessary but not sufficent. Where we disagree is not in the works that I do but the work of Jesus. So I say yes, faith plus works, but not my own works.
 
I never said that faith was sufficent, it is necessary but not sufficent. Where we disagree is not in the works that I do but the work of Jesus. So I say yes, faith plus works, but not my own works.
Well I read your 45th post which states “faith alone” which by reading it made me think that you did state faith was sufficient, which made me look for some bible quotes that state the opposite. If you do not believe faith alone is sufficient, well its all good then.
 
This is not part of this thread so I will keep my opinion short. I find it very interesting how everyone piles on Martin Luther. But nobody brings up the original issues that brought about the 95 thesis. Prince Albert of Brandenberg buying church offices through simony, Pope Leo X authorizing the selling of indulgences, Johann Tetzel selling indulgences. I am not saying that you have to swallow everything that came from Luther but he was an ordained catholic priest who saw church abuses and addressed those issues. The doctrine of justification split the church but it didnt start that way. We have these wonderful things in every house, they are called mirrors. We are all guilty of something. As Jesus said in the bible, “he who is without guilt, let him throw the first stone”.
 
I never said that faith was sufficent, it is necessary but not sufficent. Where we disagree is not in the works that I do but the work of Jesus. So I say yes, faith plus works, but not my own works.
this is getting a little off topic isn’t it?
 
This is not part of this thread so I will keep my opinion short. I find it very interesting how everyone piles on Martin Luther. But nobody brings up the original issues that brought about the 95 thesis. Prince Albert of Brandenberg buying church offices through simony, Pope Leo X authorizing the selling of indulgences, Johann Tetzel selling indulgences. I am not saying that you have to swallow everything that came from Luther but he was an ordained catholic priest who saw church abuses and addressed those issues. The doctrine of justification split the church but it didnt start that way. We have these wonderful things in every house, they are called mirrors. We are all guilty of something. As Jesus said in the bible, “he who is without guilt, let him throw the first stone”.
I see, when you’re painted into a corner go back to the old standby. 😉
 
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