Split: Doesn't Purgatory demean the sacrifice of Christ?

[adrift]

This is not part of this thread so I will keep my opinion short. I find it very interesting how everyone piles on Martin Luther. But nobody brings up the original issues that brought about the 95 thesis. Prince Albert of Brandenberg buying church offices through simony, Pope Leo X authorizing the selling of indulgences, Johann Tetzel selling indulgences. I am not saying that you have to swallow everything that came from Luther but he was an ordained catholic priest who saw church abuses and addressed those issues. The doctrine of justification split the church but it didnt start that way. We have these wonderful things in every house, they are called mirrors. We are all guilty of something. As Jesus said in the bible, “he who is without guilt, let him throw the first stone”.

Pope Leo X never authorized the selling of indulgences. Johann Tetzel has been unfairly maligned by enemies of the Church. I am not familiar with Prince Albert of Brandenburg but considering the rest of your information I bet it is not accurate either.

 

[adrift]

Pope Leo X never authorized the selling of indulgences. Johann Tetzel has been unfairly maligned by enemies of the Church. I am not familiar with Prince Albert of Brandenburg but considering the rest of your information I bet it is not accurate either.

I found him.

Albert of Brandenburg was heavily involved in debt, not, as Protestant and Catholic historians relate, on account of his pallium, but to pay a bribe to an unknown agent in Rome, to buy off a rival, in order that the archbishop might enjoy a plurality of ecclesiastical offices. For this payment, which smacked of simony, the pope would allow an indemnity, which in this case took the form of an indulgence. By this ignoble business arrangement with Rome, a financial transaction unworthy of both pope and archbishop, the revenue should be partitioned in equal halves to each, besides a bonus of 10,000 gold ducats, which should fall to the share of Rome.

Luther pointing out wrong doings would have been fine if he had stopped there but he didn’t.

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

This is not part of this thread so I will keep my opinion short. I find it very interesting how everyone piles on Martin Luther. But nobody brings up the original issues that brought about the 95 thesis. Prince Albert of Brandenberg buying church offices through simony, Pope Leo X authorizing the selling of indulgences, Johann Tetzel selling indulgences. I am not saying that you have to swallow everything that came from Luther but he was an ordained catholic priest who saw church abuses and addressed those issues. The doctrine of justification split the church but it didnt start that way. We have these wonderful things in every house, they are called mirrors. We are all guilty of something. As Jesus said in the bible, “he who is without guilt, let him throw the first stone”.

I would recommend making another thread, purgatory has been fairly answered.

 

[pablope]

I never said that faith was sufficent, it is necessary but not sufficent. Where we disagree is not in the works that I do but the work of Jesus. So I say yes, faith plus works, but not my own works.

Can you then cite a verse were you are judged by the work of Christ, and not your own?

In Matthew 25, the parable of sheep and goats, it was our own love and work that was judged, not Christ’s.

So, can you find a bible passage contradicting this? Jacob in post 49 and 50, I thought provided passages where we are judged on our own merit…with our own works.

Look at what Rev 14 says…13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying to me: Write: Blessed are the dead, who die in the Lord. From henceforth now, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow them.

So, is it not your own works that follow you and not someone else?

 

[pablope]

This is not part of this thread so I will keep my opinion short. I find it very interesting how everyone piles on Martin Luther. But nobody brings up the original issues that brought about the 95 thesis. Prince Albert of Brandenberg buying church offices through simony, Pope Leo X authorizing the selling of indulgences, Johann Tetzel selling indulgences. I am not saying that you have to swallow everything that came from Luther but he was an ordained catholic priest who saw church abuses and addressed those issues. The doctrine of justification split the church but it didnt start that way. We have these wonderful things in every house, they are called mirrors. We are all guilty of something. As Jesus said in the bible, “he who is without guilt, let him throw the first stone”.

So, what did Luther say about purgatory?

 

[6fatboy6]

I wasnt aware of which books were excluded from the current bible. If I understand correctly, the book of Maccabees will shed some light on this subject. I am not a believe it my way or else kind of person, if there is truth to be found outside of what I have read than I am not beyond reading something to get a better understanding. Any further suggestions, im listening.

 

[charliedrake]

Purgatory is a sore subject for many Catholics unnecessarily, its not so much asking the question its the answer(or lack their) that is the problem. What is the history of purgatory within the Catholic faith?

 

[adrift]

I wasnt aware of which books were excluded from the current bible. If I understand correctly, the book of Maccabees will shed some light on this subject. I am not a believe it my way or else kind of person, if there is truth to be found outside of what I have read than I am not beyond reading something to get a better understanding. Any further suggestions, im listening.

2 Maccabees Chapter 12
42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43: He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44:** For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.** 45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.Read More

 

[pablope]

I wasnt aware of which books were excluded from the current bible. If I understand correctly, the book of Maccabees will shed some light on this subject. I am not a believe it my way or else kind of person, if there is truth to be found outside of what I have read than I am not beyond reading something to get a better understanding. Any further suggestions, im listening.

I think this will help you.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire…SCOTT HAHN

But that distinction is going to be crucial from the beginning of our time today until the end — that Christ has accomplished our redemption. It’s over and done with. He has finished it. But then He sends the Holy Spirit to apply it, and the application of redemption is just as essential. We don’t have a binary deity, the Father and the Son We have a trinitery deity, a family — a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit. Jesus said, “I come to baptize with fire and spirit.” And so, when the Spirit comes at Pentecost, tongues of fire appear, and whenever the Holy Spirit appears, there is Holy Fire. When we are taken up into the Spirit, there we are consumed with a passionate, burning love, the furnace of Christ’s heart, the reality of the Holy Spirit, the fiery love of God.

That is not because Christ’s work is not enough. It’s rather the application of the work of Jesus Christ. Now that block, that obstacle was one of the biggest. It was the biggest for me as far as the doctrine of purgatory was concerned, and I would suggest that for many non-Protestants, for many Catholics, it’s an obstacle, too, because I find in discussions that many Catholics as well as Protestants share this misunderstanding.