SPLIT: Here is what we Christians have a problem with, concerning Catholic doctrines:

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I am certain that I do not suffer from ADD or any other disorder that might compromise my ability to focus and concentrate. Nevertheless, I have never been able to “always” focus and concentrate all of the time without failure. This holds true for virtually any endeavor I have ever engaged in.

My prayers are imperfect. It makes no difference what type of prayer I engage in. I cannot claim to have reached a level of prayer that in anyway approximates that of the great contemplatives. This is discouraging to me in that I hope and “pray” that the Father will grant me the grace to become better at prayer. The good news is that by God’s grace I have made progress in prayer. Likewise, I have been given the grace to persevere in prayer.

The Rosary has had an interesting effect on me. I have noticed that when I make the rosary a daily prayer all of my other efforts at prayer increase in quantity, quality, and duration. When I fail to pray the rosary for more than a few days, I find myself focusing more on myself and material things. This may be anecdotal information to some, but it is real empirical data for me.

All prayer if sincere and from the heart is good and beneficial. Even when our prayer is distracted, weak, and feeble it is heard by the Lord. I had a person express concern once about falling asleep during their evening prayer. My response was this: “What could be better than falling asleep in the arms of the Lord?”

We must be extremely cautious about judging another’s prayers. One might consider another’s prayer to be worthless and inferior to their own, when in fact they are looking at a prayer that is the equivalent to the “widow’s copper coins” in Mark 12:41-44. We should encourage one another in all forms of sincere prayer and let God judge that which is fitting in his sight.
 
OK, so a few of you have readily admitted to “mind wandering” while repeating prayers…let me just tell you, this has NEVER happened to me while I speak to God. I am thoroughly intent on saying what my heart feels in adoration, confession, thanksgiving and petition of God. I revere them to be some of the most important words that come out of my mouth and I dare not use them in vain.
Great for you. But please don’t minimalize our prayers. I say the Rosary daily, and my mind wanders all the time. It wanders to meditate on the mystery that I am on. So twice a week, I meditate on Jesus’ agony in the Garden, His Scourging, His Crowning of Thorns, etc.
Also, it is through this type of prayer that the Holy Spirit has spoken through me. What an amazing experience this is! Is this type of blessed experience possible when one’s mouth is on auto pilot? This is not a rhetorical question…I would really like to know if you believe this.
A) This experience is dependent completely on the Holy Spirit.
B) We are more receptive depending on where our mind is.
C) Period.
 
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HJProtestant:
…you will find I am not here to argue, but to discuss this topic in a constructive manner…
Does this mean we can disagree with you? :bounce:
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HJProtestant:
I believe, as with many many other ritualistic practices, that the Rosary and Our Father were started with pure intentions. Unfortunately, IN MY EXPERIENCE most Catholics repeat this stuff so many times in their life that the words no longer have meaning…and then it just becomes mouth movement.
How can you discern what is in the hearts of Catholics as they pray? I thought it was only for God to read our hearts. And as for ritual, please show us that you understand the origin of the rituals used in Catholic worship. Then we can have a discussion on rituals. OK? 😃
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HJProtestant:
This is similar to other things we are made to repeat in life…take for example, the Pledge of Allegiance. Although we only said it once through at my school each day, we were forced to say it every morning and it wasn’t until many years later that I actually realized what I was saying so was I really pledging my allegiance?
I don’t know. I wouldn’t venture to speak for you. Were you pledging your allegiance? In any case it is a faulty analogy. Saying the Pledge is not the same as praying the Rosary.
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HJProtestant:
I do believe that there are SOME Catholics that are actually praying these prayers from the heart.
How can you tell one Catholic from the other?.
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HJProtestant:
I do believe in meditation as long as THE BRAIN and THE HEART are actually engaged in what THE MOUTH is repeating.
How can you hear what is in our brains and hearts?
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HJProtestant:
Having said that, I don’t think you can deny that many, many Catholics do not have this engagement.
How many is many, many? I wouldn’t want to deny it since I can’t mindread.
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HJProtestant:
I married into a Catholic family and I find it bothersome that prayers that are so revered are used in a non-sincere and sometimes mocking manner.
Is this about Catholicism, then, or about your family?
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HJProtestant:
This is why these prayers are seen as vain.
No, this is a generalism. You are generalizing a rule from a specific experience. You can legitimately say that you married into a family which you chose to believe were praying in a non-sincere and sometimes mocking manner. But you can’t paint the rest of us with that broad brush. It just isn’t logical. Afterall, you’ve never met us.
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HJProtestant:
Certainly not all Catholics pray them in vain (just as many Protestants pray sometimes to impress people instead of truly talking to God-also vain).
But I still don’t understand how you can tell one Catholic from another.
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HJProtestant:
I have watched EWTN quite a few times to educate myself and find it strange that the head nun (sorry–not sure what she’s called) has to READ these prayers when she must have said them a million times in her life!
Sister Angelica. How many times have you watched EWTN? What is strange about reading? By the way, the Rosary is about meditating from Scripture. So yes, often people read the actual words of Scripture while they meditate. I don’t see why this is a problem.
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HJProtestant:
Also, MOST of other nuns repeating “Hail Mary” look completely bored out of their minds–not meditative.
What does bored look like exactly? Also I am not sure what you were expecting. There is not an entertainment component to Catholic education. I don’t think we use ‘shock and awe’ tactics to woo the unfaithful.
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HJProtestant:
It seems strange that the church would require something that is indeed used in vain by so many.
Well, I am proud to announce to you that we are not a Church of the righteous but a Church of sinners. Sinners are welcome here. Come on in and sit yourselves down!
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HJProtestant:
Be honest, have ever been praying one of these prayers and in your mind you were thinking of what you were going to cook for brunch after Mass, or that the person in front of you has something on their pants…or any multitude of thoughts going through your mind while your mouth just kept moving?
Yep, but I very soon got back to the prayer at hand and have thought or rather ‘received’ enormous numbers of beautiful images; Our Lord’s path all the way. Gotta love it.

🙂
 
I believe the post to which you are responding mentioned that the nuns look bored. That taping – of a 20-minute prayer form – took more than 3 hours because of Mother’s disability. They probably WERE bored, and tired. It was hardly a typical recitation of the rosary.
I read the biography of Mother, and according to Raymond Arroyo, this was a masterful job of tape editing. Knowing these facts makes watching it more meaningful. Bless Mother Angelica!
 
OK, so a few of you have readily admitted to “mind wandering” while repeating prayers…let me just tell you, this has NEVER happened to me while I speak to God. I am thoroughly intent on saying what my heart feels in adoration, confession, thanksgiving and petition of God. I revere them to be some of the most important words that come out of my mouth and I dare not use them in vain.

Also, it is through this type of prayer that the Holy Spirit has spoken through me. What an amazing experience this is! Is this type of blessed experience possible when one’s mouth is on auto pilot? This is not a rhetorical question…I would really like to know if you believe this.
So are you saying that you are a better prayer than we are? Well, so be it then.

I do the best I can. Moreover I wouldn’t want to boast about how flawless I am in any field of endeavour, least of all prayer.

I reckon those little glitches I sometimes get are the Enemy trying to stop me from praying the Rosary. As I said, I just flick them aside and settle in for a really restful time with Our Lord.
 
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mikijam:
…an important part of prayer is LISTENING to God (not just speaking).
And this is an important aspect of the Rosary. It helps me to listen to God.
 
Matt 6: 7-9: And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them.

Further, chanting defies basic principles of faith. Why do we need to pray something over and over? Do we not have faith that God heard us “the first time”?
First of all it says to avoid vain repetition. It doesn’t say avoid all repetition.
Why did Jesus repeat the same prayer 3 times during His agony in the garden? He obviously knew he was heard the first time, but he still repeated the same prayer 2 more times. I’ll wait for the explanation.

Steve
 
First of all it says to avoid vain repetition. It doesn’t say avoid all repetition.
Why did Jesus repeat the same prayer 3 times during His agony in the garden? He obviously knew he was heard the first time, but he still repeated the same prayer 2 more times. I’ll wait for the explanation.

Steve
Didn’t Christ indicate we should pray the Lord’s Prayer?

How many times have we prayed that?

Pentecostals also clearly believe in speaking in tongues and do so repeatedly.
 
Didn’t Christ indicate we should pray the Lord’s Prayer?

How many times have we prayed that?

Pentecostals also clearly believe in speaking in tongues and do so repeatedly.
How about Jesus in the Synagogue. Psalm 136? Talk about repetitive!
 
Might I add this for vain repetition. Don’t anybody chant this heretical work, just read it.
1 Praise the LORD, who is so good; God’s love endures forever. 2 Praise the God of gods; God’s love endures forever. 3 Praise the Lord of lords; God’s love endures forever. 4 Who alone has done great wonders, God’s love endures forever. 5 Who skillfully made the heavens, God’s love endures forever.; 6 Who spread the earth upon the waters, God’s love endures forever. 7 Who made the great lights, God’s love endures forever. 8 The sun to rule the day, God’s love endures forever. 9 The moon and stars to rule the night, God’s love endures forever. 10 Who struck down the firstborn of Egypt, God’s love endures forever.; 11 And led Israel from their midst, God’s love endures forever. 12 With mighty hand and outstretched arm, God’s love endures forever.; 13 Who split in two the Red Sea, God’s love endures forever.; 14 And led Israel through, God’s love endures forever.; 15 But swept Pharaoh and his army into the Red Sea, God’s love endures forever.; 16 Who led the people through the desert, God’s love endures forever.; 17 Who struck down great kings, God’s love endures forever.; 18 Slew powerful kings,God’s love endures forever. 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, God’s love endures forever. 20 Og, king of Bashan, God’s love endures forever.; 21 And made their lands a heritage, God’s love endures forever.; 22 2 A heritage for Israel, God’s servant, God’s love endures forever.. 23 The LORD remembered us in our misery, God’s love endures forever.; 24 Freed us from our foes, God’s love endures forever.; 25 And gives food to all flesh, God’s love endures forever. 26 Praise the God of heaven, God’s love endures forever.
BTW, I just love Psalm 136!!! I swear, you need to be standing on top of your chair shouting this by the time you get to the end of this Psalm. I can’t believe there’s not a liturgical song based on this.
 
Might I add this for vain repetition. Don’t anybody chant this heretical work, just read it.

BTW, I just love Psalm 136!!! I swear, you need to be standing on top of your chair shouting this by the time you get to the end of this Psalm. I can’t believe there’s not a liturgical song based on this.
I prefer the non-inclusive language version: “For his love endures forever!”
 
I saw this post and thought I’d put my two cents in. skelly is off the wall! as protestant with some pentacostal leanings I feel safe in saying that most respected protestant theologians would call her views on knowing everything about God and prosperity arogant and heretical. I hope nobody thinks this represents authentic protestantism. a warning, any gospel that does’nt hold true in the third world is false anywhere. I suppose that Richard Wormbrand was a faithless man since he spent most of his life in the poverty and hellish poor mental and physical health appropriate to a communist prison camp because he refused to deny Christ.
 
Didn’t Christ indicate we should pray the Lord’s Prayer?

How many times have we prayed that?

Pentecostals also clearly believe in speaking in tongues and do so repeatedly.
Yes, but they never say the same thing twice! 😃
 
I saw this post and thought I’d put my two cents in. skelly is off the wall! as protestant with some pentacostal leanings I feel safe in saying that most respected protestant theologians would call her views on knowing everything about God and prosperity arogant and heretical. I hope nobody thinks this represents authentic protestantism. a warning, any gospel that does’nt hold true in the third world is false anywhere. I suppose that Richard Wormbrand was a faithless man since he spent most of his life in the poverty and hellish poor mental and physical health appropriate to a communist prison camp because he refused to deny Christ.
No worries that her position would be taken for mainstream Protestantism, but you raise a really interesting point: do Protestants forbid heresy?
 
I’m not sure about you, but when I was in school they taught us when taking a test and you see an answer with the word never or always that one is going to be the wrong one. I find it impossable to believe that your mind has “NEVER” wondered durring a prayer. Since we were told to live a life of ceaseless prayer. But I suppose if you think about it whatever you think about when you are praying is what you are praying for. So if I am praying for God’s grace or guidance, and I suddely think of Lunch then maybe I need to be concious of what hapens at lunchtime. Or maybe I am just not as perfect as you are, but then again neither is any other human being to walk this earth. Just my thoughts…
Oh, am certainly not inferring that I am perfect…of course not! I am simply comparing repetitious prayer that can be done on auto-pilot completing disengaged with our conscious mind and the style of prayer that I believe is Biblical which demands my full attention because I am actively thinking about my words. Just as when I type this, these are my words that I have to formulate in my brain first and then type, but if a thought runs through my head, I have to stop typing because my brain cannot think about two things at one time. See what I mean?

Someone also mentioned speaking in tongues. I hope you know I didn’t mean speaking in tongues when I stated that the HS has spoken through me in prayer. It definitely was not tongues (for the Bible states some very tight rules for this), and honestly that is a subject for another forum! This has happened to me twice (to my recollection). It is an awesome experience and very affirming! Both times happened while praying with other believers. It was as if the HS interceded for me through my own mouth! Both times I got a huge adrenaline rush and my body trembled. The words that came out of my mouth were so eloquent and divine…and they didn’t run through my brain before they came out of my mouth! I felt an amazing sense of peace afterwards. Several non-C people I know have experienced this as well.

And now a question…what is a Charismatic Catholic? I’ve never heard the term…or was this sarcasm I didn’t pick up on?!
 
Might I add this for vain repetition. Don’t anybody chant this heretical work, just read it.

BTW, I just love Psalm 136!!! I swear, you need to be standing on top of your chair shouting this by the time you get to the end of this Psalm. I can’t believe there’s not a liturgical song based on this.
The slight difference is this is worship, not prayer…perhaps insignificant, but just my observation. Also, I agree, this is a very good use of repetition…Chris Tomlin uses this in one of his songs. It is awesome and…somewhat repetitive!

Give thanks to the Lord
Our God and King
His love endures forever
For He is good, He is above all things
His love endures forever
Sing praise, sing praise
With a mighty hand
and outstretched arm
His love endures forever
For the life that’s been reborn
His love endures forever
Sing praise, sing praise
Sing praise, sing praise

Yeah
Forever God is faithful
Forever God is strong
Forever God is with us
Forever
Forever

From the rising to the setting sun
His love endures forever
By the grace of God
We will carry on
His love endures forever
Sing praise, sing praise
Sing praise, sing praise
Yeah
Forever God is faithful
Forever God is strong
Forever God is with us
Forever
Forever
Forever God is faithful
Forever God is strong
Forever God is with us
Forever
Forever
Forever

His love endures forever
His love endures forever
His love endures forever
Forever
Sing praise, sing praise
Sing praise, sing praise
Yeah
Forever you are faithful
Forever you are strong
Foerver you are with us
Forever
And ever
Yeah

Forever you are faithful
Forever you are strong
Forever you are with us
Forever
Forever
You are God…
Forever
And ever and ever …
 
Skelly must really hate “praise music”—is there anything more repetitive than THAT? :eek:
 
I saw this post and thought I’d put my two cents in. skelly is off the wall! as protestant with some pentacostal leanings I feel safe in saying that most respected protestant theologians would call her views on knowing everything about God and prosperity arogant and heretical. I hope nobody thinks this represents authentic protestantism. a warning, any gospel that does’nt hold true in the third world is false anywhere. I suppose that Richard Wormbrand was a faithless man since he spent most of his life in the poverty and hellish poor mental and physical health appropriate to a communist prison camp because he refused to deny Christ.
Yes, I agree with you! I was just recently forced off of a thread yesterday by what I will to refer to as an EXTREMELY PASSIONATE Catholic…I felt like if he could have, he would e-slap me!! So I left that thread and then enter this one with an EXTREMELY PASSIONATE non-C…ZOIKS! I think one must understand something before going into an apologetic forum…especially one hosted by “the other team” (for lack of a better term): You must be humble. AMEN?
 
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