(SPLIT) Mike Gendron's "Who Holds the Keys?"

[crochet_lady]

ahs

Your interpretation of what I’m saying is correct. – what are You referring to by Sacred Tradition. God has given us His Word / His inspired Word to us. Churches all have their various traditions / things that they incorporate into their church service in the form of worshiping God. But the Main part is reading / teaching God’s Word.

 

[JamesTheJust]

ahs

Your interpretation of what I’m saying is correct. – what are You referring to by Sacred Tradition. God has given us His Word / His inspired Word to us. Churches all have their various traditions / things that they incorporate into their church service in the form of worshiping God. But the Main part is reading / teaching God’s Word.

Catholics believe that God’s Word is not contained entirely in Scripture. We believe that whatever the Apostles taught, whether written or transmitted orally, was (and is) infallible, authoritative, and inspired (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:15). The teachings which were not written have been passed down for 2000 years, from the 1st Century to today, preserved by the Holy Spirit.

Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up the Deposit of Faith, which is binding on all the faithful. Not all (lower-case) tradition is (capitalized) Tradition, though.

 

[Mr_Clean]

ShanPo

Actually - the Jehovah’s Witnesses Do believe a lot of God’s Word. BUT their ‘own’ literature and translation of the Bible. is there own ‘spin’. They win people to their belief system because they call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses. So how could They be wrong.

Off topic a little but you do know JW don’t believe Jesus was fully God and fully man. They also believe souls that are damned are annihilated instead of going to hell.

They don’t believe Jesus became a king until 1914 or something like that.

See, they also base their interpretation of the bible on somebody reading it and making a decision as to what it means without the early Traditions of the Church.

 

[crochet_lady]

A question – what Is meant by the ‘Catholic’ Church. Doesn’t ‘Catholic’ mean ‘universal’? In which case I’d agree. "universal’ church would refer to all those who have accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior – the Holy Spirit has come to indwell that person – so All people - Everywhere in the world are part of the universal body of Christ. Because Christ is the Head of the 'Church./ the universal body of believers in Christ. Because the cross became the ‘bridge’ connecting people to God.
And throughout the world - there are groups of believers who get together to worship God – the local body of believers.

Where in the New Testament does Peter become a priest? He was a disciples that Jesus Chose and was an apostle as per Acts 1: 21 - "Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out amongst us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. vs. 24 'then they prayed , Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two yuou have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, (Judas had left the group).
And 1 & 2 Peter were written by Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.

 

[Church_Militant]

what are You referring to by Sacred Tradition.

Sacred Tradition is one way in which one knows that one’s thinking in regard to scripture is consistent with what the early church believed and taught. IOW, does what you say you believe and/or what you/or anyone else interpret a verse of scripture to mean, agree with the authentic and verifiable records we have from those who were taught by the apostles themselves (For instance Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, and Justin Martyr)? If these men, who all gave their lives for what they believed, express an interpretation that differs from what you think or have heard preached, then who is actually more likely to be correct? These early church disciples taught by the apostles, or you or some modern preacher? Consider: Who is actually closer to source?

God has given us His Word / His inspired Word to us.

Agreed.

Churches all have their various traditions / things that they incorporate into their church service in the form of worshiping God.

Indeed they do…but is their variations of interpretations consistent with what the early church tells us even as they died for the faith?

But the Main part is reading / teaching God’s Word.

Again…how do you know that what you (or anyone else) have taught is correct Christian belief? Who has the knowledge and authority to say?

 

[adrift]

Where in the New Testament does Peter become a priest? He was a disciples that Jesus Chose and was an apostle as per Acts 1: 21 - "Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out amongst us, beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. vs. 24 'then they prayed , Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two yuou have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, (Judas had left the group).
And 1 & 2 Peter were written by Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Catholic Dictionary

The Apostles were the first ordained priests, when on Holy Thursday night Christ told them to do in his memory what he had just done at the Last Supper. All priests and bishops trace their ordination to the Apostles. Their second essential priestly power, to forgive sins, was conferred by Christ on Easter Sunday, when he told the Apostles, “For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained” (John 20-22,23).

 

[Church_Militant]

A question – what Is meant by the ‘Catholic’ Church. Doesn’t ‘Catholic’ mean ‘universal’?

I’ll offer you responses that are more concise than most of us here can do.

**III. THE CHURCH IS CATHOLIC **
** What does “catholic” mean? **
830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” The Church is catholic in a double sense:

First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:310

All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God’s will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one. . . . The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit.311

**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

In which case I’d agree. "universal’ church would refer to all those who have accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior – the Holy Spirit has come to indwell that person – so All people - Everywhere in the world are part of the universal body of Christ.

See above.

 

[Mr_Clean]

A question – what Is meant by the ‘Catholic’ Church. Doesn’t ‘Catholic’ mean ‘universal’?

I’m sure others here can give you more but the greek word katholikos does mean “universal” in english. My understanding is that is what ECF in the 1st century used to refer to the church. By the 2nd century Catholic or Katholikos was always capitilized in church writtings.

Keep in mind that some 1st century writtings were by people who were disciples under some of the original Apostles. I’d say you can’t get any closer to the original source than that.

Crochet Lady-

Because you have shared so many links to websites with us I’d like to do the same for you. Forgive me if someone already submitted this to you.

Check out www.catholic-convert.com

There’s a lot on there so I recommend you start with the “about” tab and click “Why I’m Catholic”. If you’ve never heard Steve Ray tell his story I highly recommend you look him up on youtube. He’s one of the best imho.

 

[eddie_too]

the twelve apostles were the first RC magisterium.

Jesus decided that and made it that way.

Jesus selected the twelve personally.

Jesus spent three years with them, virtually 24-7, teaching them and training them, explaining to them how the Church would unfold and grow.

Jesus did this so that all who believed in Him would have a means of knowing what He had done and taught.

Jesus knew that unless He established His authority on earth for all generations, it would be lost (His authority) and many, many people would claim to speak for Him while simultaneously providing the children with incorrect and false teachings and understandings of the faith. thus Jesus established the Church and its magisterium.

we experience the Lord’s wisdom in creating a permanent magisterium to ensure that His authority would be present in every generation by observing the consequences of abandoning loyalty and obedience to magisterium Jesus established. the consequences of abandoning the authority Jesus established is the over 30,000 different christian sects each of whom have different, sometime even opposite, interpretations of what Jesus taught.

 

[ShanPO]

Crochet Lady, I’m sorry, but you didn’t answer any of my questions. You tried to answer the last one, but missed the mark completely. I’ll post them here again for you:

If people are capable of learning to read for themselves, and that includes God’s word, how do you know your interpretation is right and someone else…say the Jehovah’s Witnesses, are wrong?

How do you know you’re right about the original topic of this thread, that Peter does not “Hold the Keys” and we Catholics are wrong?

Is that something you determined on your own or did someone share that with you and you agreed?

How do you know that you or the person who shared information with you regarding Bible teachings are right?

What came first, the teachings of the Bible or the Bible itself? A little clarification on this one, I’m asking about the Book itself. The one you’ve been quoting from. Which came first, the teachings that Book contains or the Book itself?

What I really want to know is how do you know your interpretation of scripture is right vs. someone else’s? How do you know anything anyone tells you regarding scripture is right or wrong?

 

[spina1953]

crochet lady;11579644:

ShanPo

Actually - the Jehovah’s Witnesses Do believe a lot of God’s Word. BUT their ‘own’ literature and translation of the Bible. is there own ‘spin’. They win people to their belief system because they call themselves Jehovah’s Witnesses. So how could They be wrong.

Off topic a little but you do know JW don’t believe Jesus was fully God and fully man. They also believe souls that are damned are annihilated instead of going to hell.

They don’t believe Jesus became a king until 1914 or something like that.

See, they also base their interpretation of the bible on somebody reading it and making a decision as to what it means without the early Traditions of the Church.

Mr. Clean: I just want t clear up one thing that you mentioned concerning the 1914 thing. According to what JW’s have told me, Jesus returned invisible in1914 not as a king but as His second coming.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Mr Clean;11580323:

Mr. Clean: I just want t clear up one thing that you mentioned concerning the 1914 thing. According to what JW’s have told me, Jesus returned invisible in1914 not as a king but as His second coming.

Well, that’s what they teach now. Before 1914, they taught that he was going to come visibly to rule the earth, but when that clearly didn’t happen, they delayed their prophecies to a later date. But those didn’t get fulfilled either. After doing this a few times, they changed their teachings to say that Christ came “invisibly” in 1914.

 

[eddie_too]

corchet lady,

you misunderstodd my question. i asked why i “should” believe your interpretations of sacred scripture.

you responded that i did not “have” to accept your interpretations.

so let me ask again, since you have already stated there is no reason why i “have” to accept your why interpretations, why “should” i accept your interpretations?

 

[spina1953]

spina1953;11581652:

Well, that’s what they teach now. Before 1914, they taught that he was going to come visibly to rule the earth, but when that clearly didn’t happen, they delayed their prophecies to a later date. But those didn’t get fulfilled either. After doing this a few times, they changed their teachings to say that Christ came “invisibly” in 1914.

James the Just: I have to agree with your statement in you post. You are correct in what you posted as I have read that some time ago, and some of the JW witness had said that too.

 

[Mr_Clean]

Was there some significance to 1914?

Sorry, this is getting off topic. Just curious.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Was there some significance to 1914?

Sorry, this is getting off topic. Just curious.

To arrive at this date, the Watchtower took the account in Daniel 4 and applied a 360 day year for each of the seven “times” for a total of 2520 years. They added this date to 607 B.C., their date for the fall of Jerusalem under Nebuchadnezzar (which is actually incorrect), and arrived at 1914 A.D., the date when the “appointed time of the nations” supposedly ended (The Time is at Hand, page 79), and the end of the world should have occurred, according to their prophecies (Watchtower 11/15/50, page 438).

But yes, I agree, we should get back on topic.

 

[petra22]

Where in the New Testament does Peter become a priest?

I think it was when at the Last Supper when Jesus said, “This is my body and this is my blood.” “Do this in memory of me.”
When he told them to do this in memory of Him, the (the apostles) had the body and blood of Jesus to offer for us EVERY TIME they did/do it… IMHO Jesus made them priests…

 

[adrift]

Since your comment is off topic

people were taken to bodies of water – whatever body of water was nearby at the time.

I have opened a new thread. I would appreciate your answer.
Were people taken to bodies of water to be baptized?

 

[crochet_lady]

Shanpo # 90

At the risk of sounding like a ‘smart elec’ which I don’t mean to. But – I Could ask You the same questions.

But I’ll Try to answer your question about Peter from a different perspective. I’ve Never considered that That ‘interpretation’ was ‘valid’. Because I Don’t believe that Scripture / God’s Word has given rise to the papacy/ And it’s Also true that the Vatican is immensly powerful. The Roman Empire was probably the greatest most powerful in history.

I’ve Also suggested that Everyone is Very able to read God’s Word for themselves. Don’t be depending on what I say – I’ve simply been around offering a Different perspective. So – Why is the RCC church THE only true teaching? After all Jesus Christ has told us that “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father, but through Him.”
And John 8:32 To the Jews who had believed Him, Jesus said. “If you hold to My teaching you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

petra22 – so in Your humble opinion Jesus made the disciples / apostles priests. – okay Your ‘opinion’ / My ‘opinion’ What does God’s Word Tell us. .

 

[eddie_too]

you have to know Jesus’ teaching to hold to it.

that is what is at issue. what did Jesus really teach?