(SPLIT) Mike Gendron's "Who Holds the Keys?"

[crochet_lady]

There are two articles I’ve found – and I checked to make sure they can be located Again.

“Exploring the Concept of Priesthood” which is from Christian Courier.com

")Is The Roman Catholic Church Apostolic**Part Two and is from Truth Magazine

They are 5 and 6 pages.

Baptism – Ephesians 2:8 & 9 '-- Not to be seen as a ‘good work’ Unto salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God through Jesus Christ. God’s grace IS sufficient – God doesn’t need any help from Us in our salvation.

As for translating God’s Word from what was Originally Hebrew/ Greek. No one seems to have a ‘problem’ with the translating from those original languages to the Latin Volgate. And That was the primary language for How Many years. And at some point God’s Word was translated into German and English, etc.

Each language has it’s own alphabet – no two are the same – So when translating from one language to another – there will be times when there is no word in the ‘new’ language that coincides with the ‘old’ language. And most languages have their ‘local idiums’ For instance we use phrases like ‘it’s raining cats and dogs outside’. We know we don’t mean literal cats and dogs are coming down from the sky. But we Do mean it’s raining really hard / fast. So we try to explain what we Really mean to someone trying to learn English. Many years ago I Was trying to help people of another language learn English / improve their English. It was an Interesting experience. So a questian gets asked 'why don’t you just say what you mean?" Good point.
But, as was mentioned - in the process of translating Any literature from one language to another – the translator takes the word / words that come the very closest possible in the context – and grammatical structure / tenses of words, etc.
And people CAN learn the Greek/ Hebrew if they choose to. My husband and brother-in-law Both took Greek in college.
And a person can get that on Internet, too. And learning about the cultural setting of books in Scripture. But all of that isn’t essential for being able to understand what our own Bible’s say. That’s why translators Do take time to get God’s Word into all sorts of languages. It doesn’t need to be foreign to Anyone.

Revelation 3:5 Is saying “I will Not blot out his name” Sounds like You are 'qualifying ’ that statement by suggesting that God Could blot a name out. And That would suggest that a person needs to be continually on his ‘guard’ about his actions. Why not be living a daily life For God and Not be living in a state of ‘fear’ / God’s Word tells that 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We Can know that we have eternal life through Jesus Christ’s gift of salvation. He knows the intents / thoughts of our heart. He knows the heart that is rebellious and the one that is seeking to live a Godly life. What a person is in their Heart Will be lived out in their life.

I got on This forum not having a clue about how active it was. Some Forums are Not very active / some Are. A person never knows what they’ll find on the Internet.

 

[Church_Militant]

There are two articles I’ve found – and I checked to make sure they can be located Again.

"Exploring the Concept of Priesthood

" which is from Christian Courier.com

"Is The Roman Catholic Church Apostolic? (Part Two) and is from Truth Magazine

They are 5 and 6 pages. I’ll have a look and get back to you, okay?

I got on This forum not having a clue about how active it was. Some Forums are Not very active / some Are. A person never knows what they’ll find on the Internet.

Yeah, you found us. Funny how so many others, who say they want to talk about our most holy faith can’t seem to do as you did.

I mean Catholic.com is pretty simple and Google shows it in the first half dozen entries under a simple search of Catholic. We don’t hide…and what we believe is here to be discussed with charity and concise facts. It’s like I said before, if those folks at CARM or any of the other anti-Catholic hotbeds want the truth…they know where to find us.

The rest of that was all off topic, so, to keep from derailing this thread I’ll open a new one on OSAS/Eternal Security and your can make your case there, but I warn you now that it, like Sola Scriptura, will prove unscriptural.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Lion_Heart]

Greetings in Christ,

Concerning the text of Matt.16:17-19, theologians have been debating for hundreds of years on the identity of the ROCK and the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church and what is the meaning of the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and what it represents.

Who is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE and the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church?

According to the following Bible verses Is.28:16; Acts 4:12; Rom.9:33; 1 Cor.3:11-15; Eph.2:20; 1Pet.2:6-8:-

Jesus Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone of the Catholic Church.
Jesus Christ also is the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church with the APOSTLES and PROPHETS.
The Catholic Church built on the above foundation.

The teaching that Peter is the foundation of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church built on Peter is far from the truth.
1 Cor.3:11; Eph.2:19-20; Explains on whom the Catholic Church having been built.

What really the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN means or represents?

The keys are a symbol of authority (Mark 13:34).
THE key that open the door of Heaven is the Word of God the Scriptures (John 5:24).

No one can debate it:- If someone believes the Word of God the door of Heaven is open for him, if he rejects the Word of God then the door of Heaven remains shut for him.

No doubt, the WORD OF GOD and our faith in it or lack of faith in it, opens or shuts the door of the Kingdom of Heaven.
The WORD OF GOD is the key and it is up to us how we use that key.

God has given us the POWER and the AUTHORITY to use the WORD OF GOD (as the key) to open or shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven, it is up to us. – John 5:24; etc.

CAN WE UNDERSTAND THE WORD OF GOD?

That totally depends on that we are on the spiritual position of the fall or we are on the spiritual position of the Body of Christ.

THIS BELOW IS THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE FALL:-
If we are on this spiritual position, then we cannot understand the Word of God.

a. We are under God’s CONDEMNATION. – Rom.5:18a; John 3:18b.

b. WE are in BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION. – Rom.8:19-21.

c. We are residents of the KINGDOM OF SATAN. – Luke 4:5-7.

d. We are SPIRITUALLY DEAD in sins. – Eph.2:1b; Col.2:13a.

e. We “do NOT accept anything from the Spirit of God: we do see it all as nonsense; it is BEYOND our UNDERSTANDING because it CAN ONLY be understood by means of the Spirit.” – 1 Cor.2:14 (Jerusalem Bible) Emphasize mine.

THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF THE BODY OF CHRIST:-
Every Born Again person is on the spiritual position of the Body of Christ and by relying on the teaching of the Holy Spirit able to understand the Word of God. – John 14:17, 26; John 16:13-15; 1 John 2:26-27.

The spiritual position of the Body of Christ is described in Cor.2:12-13, 15-16;

• Understand the teachings of the Holy Spirit.
• Able to judge the value of everything.
• Have the mind of Christ.

Every Born Again person with the aid of the Holy Spirit able to understand the Word of God.

Furthermore for our PROTECTION, not to be victims of false prophets:- God’s has GIVEN US A COMMAND described in 1 Thess.5:21. “TEST ALL THINGS; hold fast what is good.”

In Acts 17:11 God has also given us an example the way we MUST OBEY HIS COMMAND. “… Receive the word (teaching) with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.”

In 1 John 2:26-27; We find God’s very important PROMISE:-

“These things I have written to you concerning those who try to DECEIVE you.
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you DO NOT NEED that ANYONE teach you; but as the same anointing TEACHES YOU CONCERNING ALL THINGS, and it is true, …”

SUMMARY:-
In the above Bible verses God PROMISES us:-

If we obey His COMMAND given to us for our protection in 1 Thess.5:21 in the way as it is described in Acts 17:11 the Holy Spirit will TEACH US CONCERNING ALL THINGS and we will NEVER be deceived by false doctrines.

We don’t have to be spiritual geniuses to know, if God didn’t give us the mental ability to understand His Word and the aid of the Holy Spirit to TEACH US CONCERNING ALL THINGS we could never obey the above COMMANDS of God and we could NEVER distinguish between true doctrines and the doctrines of “our uninvited guests.” – 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.2:1-3.

Every Born Again person is able to understand the teachings of the Holy Spirit and for this very reason able to understand the Word of God as well. – 1 John 2:26-27!!!

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Mr_Clean]

Greetings in Christ,

Concerning the text of Matt.16:17-19, theologians have been debating for hundreds of years on the identity of the ROCK and the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church and what is the meaning of the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and what it represents.

Who is the CHIEF CORNERSTONE and the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church?

According to the following Bible verses Is.28:16; Acts 4:12; Rom.9:33; 1 Cor.3:11-15; Eph.2:20; 1Pet.2:6-8:-

Jesus Christ Himself is the Chief Cornerstone of the Catholic Church.
Jesus Christ also is the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church with the APOSTLES and PROPHETS.
The Catholic Church built on the above foundation.

The teaching that Peter is the foundation of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church built on Peter is far from the truth.
1 Cor.3:11; Eph.2:19-20; Explains on whom the Catholic Church having been built.

What really the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN means or represents?

The keys are a symbol of authority (Mark 13:34).
THE key that open the door of Heaven is the Word of God the Scriptures (John 5:24).

No one can debate it:- If someone believes the Word of God the door of Heaven is open for him, if he rejects the Word of God then the door of Heaven remains shut for him.

No doubt, the WORD OF GOD and our faith in it or lack of faith in it, opens or shuts the door of the Kingdom of Heaven.
The WORD OF GOD is the key and it is up to us how we use that key.

Can you explain the name change? And why Jesus gave Peter the keys? Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone or Keystone that ties the rest of the Church together. He is the Master Builder - the Church does not deny any of this. Still, Jesus said to Peter “you are rock and upon this rock I WILL BUILD”. Are you saying there is no significance to what Jesus said here? We have a name change, a declaration that a Church will be built, and keys being given. What for? Why say these things?

 

[adrift]

What really the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN means or represents?

THE key that open the door of Heaven is the Word of God the Scriptures (John 5:24).

,

Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

John does not say that the Word of God is the Scriptures much less that it is the Key that was spoken of when Jesus said to Peter I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

To claim that Scripture is the keys is unsupported by the context of Scripture itself.

I have already posted this but it seems right to post it again from the NAB

The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from ⇒ Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given “the key of the house of David,” which he authoritatively “opens” and “shuts” (⇒ Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In ⇒ Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter’s exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.

 

[crochet_lady]

Lion Heart #123

 

[crochet_lady]

adrift #125 John 1:1 - 3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word was God. vs 2 "He was in the beginning with God vs 3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. "
vs 14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us , and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of thej Father, full of grace and truth.”

1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 " Moreover , brethren, I declare to you the gospel ---- by which you are also saved. ---- that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scripture, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day, according to the Scripture, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve" .

 

[ShanPO]

adrift #125 John 1:1 - 3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word was God. vs 2 "He was in the beginning with God vs 3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. "
vs 14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us , and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of thej Father, full of grace and truth.”

1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 " Moreover , brethren, I declare to you the gospel ---- by which you are also saved. ---- that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scripture, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day, according to the Scripture, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve" .

Is the Word in John 1 scripture or Jesus?

 

[adrift]

adrift #125 John 1:1 - 3 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word was God. vs 2 "He was in the beginning with God vs 3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. "
vs 14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us , and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of thej Father, full of grace and truth.”

1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 " Moreover , brethren, I declare to you the gospel ---- by which you are also saved. ---- that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scripture, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day, according to the Scripture, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve" .

Is the Word in John 1 scripture or Jesus?

This is the question that I asked also. Your post doesn’t say which it is.

The Gospel that 1 Corinthians speaks about is not Mathew, Luke, Mark, and John but the “Good News” that Jesus has died for our sins. The Scripture mentioned is not the New Testament.

 

[Mr_Clean]

Isn’t the answer right there in vs 14?

 

[adrift]

Isn’t the answer right there in vs 14?

I am trying to clear up what crochet lady believes. I am confused by her answer that is why
I would like to see her answer to ShanPO

Is the Word in John 1 scripture or Jesus?

 

[Mr_Clean]

I am trying to clear up what crochet lady believes. I am confused by her answer that is why
I would like to see her answer to ShanPO

Allow me too assist.

Greek for Word = Logos, greek for scripture = graphe. Apparently they are not necessarily one in the same.

 

[adrift]

Allow me too assist.

Greek for Word = Logos, greek for scripture = graphe. Apparently they are not necessarily one in the same.

You are right but I still await crotchet Lady to clear up what she meant.

 

[Church_Militant]

You are right but I still await crotchet Lady to clear up what she meant.

Yes, I agree. I’d like to see what she says in response to that because I think there’s an important and significant difference in authentic interpretation there.

 

[ShanPO]

Yes, I agree. I’d like to see what she says in response to that because I think there’s an important and significant difference in authentic interpretation there.

Doesn’t look like we’re going to get an answer guys. Hopefully she’s really thinking about everything we told her.

 

[crochet_lady]

Hey ya’ll – I Do have a life outside of this thread Is the ‘Word’ referring to Jesus or Scripture? The verse sort of says it all – doesn’t it? “The Word Was God” AND “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God …” and “In the beginning God created.”
So – it’s called God’s Word for a Reason.

Mr Clean – yes , the answer is right there in vs. 14. 'the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Jesus Christ / 2nd person of the Godhead Did come to this earth – God is Spirit – can’t be seen – in the Old Testament He Did ‘appear’ in a cloud / in the burning bush. So – Jesus Christ Was God in the flesh. And while on earth – Jesus Did pray to His Father.

So - Here I am Back – Shanpo

 

[ShanPO]

Hey ya’ll – I Do have a life outside of this thread Is the ‘Word’ referring to Jesus or Scripture? The verse sort of says it all – doesn’t it? “The Word Was God” AND “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God …” and “In the beginning God created.”
So – it’s called God’s Word for a Reason.

Mr Clean – yes , the answer is right there in vs. 14. 'the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Jesus Christ / 2nd person of the Godhead Did come to this earth – God is Spirit – can’t be seen – in the Old Testament He Did ‘appear’ in a cloud / in the burning bush. So – Jesus Christ Was God in the flesh. And while on earth – Jesus Did pray to His Father.

So - Here I am Back – Shanpo

Thanks for joining us again, we’re glad to have you back! You have a knack for not answering questions at all, you should be a politician .

I asked if the word in John was scripture or Jesus, not referring to. Two completely separate things.

 

[petra22]

And thank you!

 

[crochet_lady]

The only way the Bible / God’s Word can Become an ‘idol’ is if a person lays their personal Bible on a shelf or table – a place of honor – it’s carefully dusted each day – maybe a candle is lit beside it - but it’s rarely opened and Read. Or maybe it is – but only on special occasions and only ceremonially. The Book is worshiped but not the Author Of the Book.

How do you think we Got the Bible in the 1st place. It came From God. He’s telling us Mortal human beings exactly what He wants us to know. He ‘spoke’ His Word Through the Holy Spirit TO men who He chose to give It To. They wrote it down so others Could read it themselves. He’s told us about Jesus Christ’s coming birth and that He came to die on the cross and rose again to take away our sins – and Jesus Christ’s life / miracles are to point us To His Father in heaven. And then He ascended Back up to His Father in heaven and has sent the Holy Spirit for / to us.

God’s Word is ‘living and powerful’ – it pricks our conscience.

Jesus is greater than any created thing such as the Bible??? Jesus Christ is part of the God head. So How could He be Greater than God who Gave us the Bible.

Shanpo – sorry if you don’t feel I’ve answered your question. I’ve certainly Tried to. Apparently you don’t Agree with my answer. I think you’re splitting hairs. “If the Word in John is Scripture or Jesus?” So – it’s Both? What is Your perspective? What are You looking for?

 

[Church_Militant]

Hey ya’ll – I Do have a life outside of this thread

So do we, but for us it’s kinda a 2nd home.

Is the ‘Word’ referring to Jesus or Scripture? The verse sort of says it all – doesn’t it? “The Word Was God”

Except that it’s going beyond what is written to infer that these verses mean the scriptures when they plainly speak of Christ Himself.

AND “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God …”

No argument there from faithful Catholics, but this does not help your case that the interpretation that you hold is correct…especially in light of the contexts that we have cited.

and “In the beginning God created.”
So – it’s called God’s Word for a Reason.

I can’t understand how you fail to see the non-sequitur of your citations here. This verse, from both its own context and that of the rest of the passages that you have cited plainly speaks of the creation and not Christ Himself. It’s simply not there, and to try to string them together as you have creates a seriously errant precedent for interpretation of scripture that could be very dangerous.

Mr Clean – yes , the answer is right there in vs. 14. 'the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Jesus Christ / 2nd person of the Godhead Did come to this earth – God is Spirit – can’t be seen – in the Old Testament He Did ‘appear’ in a cloud / in the burning bush. So – Jesus Christ Was God in the flesh. And while on earth – Jesus Did pray to His Father.

Again, no issue from faithful Catholics who have no problem with what the verse says, but from context have to disagree with your interpretation.

The only way the Bible / God’s Word can Become an ‘idol’ is if a person lays their personal Bible on a shelf or table – a place of honor – it’s carefully dusted each day – maybe a candle is lit beside it - but it’s rarely opened and Read. Or maybe it is – but only on special occasions and only ceremonially. The Book is worshiped but not the Author Of the Book.

So you don’t think that assigning the Bible authority that it nowhere lays claim to would at least border on a sort of deification of it? Hey, I’d believe in Sola Scriptura myself if someone…anyone could provide the scripture where it says it is that authority that we know from it’s own pages is assigned by Christ Himself to his church, but no one has, and I have read the Bible (all 73 books of it) many times (and still do) and I have yet to find such a passage anywhere. So, please PM me with the scripture references if you have them.

How do you think we Got the Bible in the 1st place. It came From God. He’s telling us Mortal human beings exactly what He wants us to know. He ‘spoke’ His Word Through the Holy Spirit TO men who He chose to give It To. They wrote it down so others Could read it themselves. He’s told us about Jesus Christ’s coming birth and that He came to die on the cross and rose again to take away our sins – and Jesus Christ’s life / miracles are to point us To His Father in heaven. And then He ascended Back up to His Father in heaven and has sent the Holy Spirit for / to us

.No argument. We profess that same thing in the creed… However, again we are back to who has the God-given authority to discern correct interpretation of these important scriptures in the Bible?

God’s Word is ‘living and powerful’ – it pricks our conscience.

Again, no argument…however, this makes me ask you an important question.

If, you discover that the scriptures do not support Sola Scriptura, and that the Catholic Church has been right all along, then are you willing to convert and join the Catholic Church?

**Jesus is greater than any created thing such as the Bible??? **

Jesus Christ is part of the God head. So How could He be Greater than God who Gave us the Bible. This is a total misapprehension, both of what was said to you as well as the scriptures. The bolded line above is absolutely correct, since the Bible is a created thing and though holy, is in no way divine, in that it does not, and does not anywhere claim to, share in the deity of God. If that were true then the Bible would constitute a 4th person in the godhead which is totally contrary to Christian doctrine. This is precisely what we mean when we speak of a deification of the Bible by some non-Catholics.

Nowhere have we ever asserted that Jesus is greater than the Father or the Spirit, but the Bible does not share in that divine nature.

Shanpo – sorry if you don’t feel I’ve answered your question. I’ve certainly Tried to. Apparently you don’t Agree with my answer. I think you’re splitting hairs. “If the Word in John is Scripture or Jesus?” So – it’s Both? What is Your perspective? What are You looking for?

See above.