(SPLIT) Mike Gendron's "Who Holds the Keys?"

[crochet_lady]

So – IF I’m understanding you correctly – you’re saying that Just because GOD created this world and everything in it – and that which we call The Bible / God’s Word was given to us BY God / The creator – that That doesn’t give His Word ‘authority’? That It’s NOT divine?

That would mean that this is where we part company. Because of 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be complete;, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.”

So who Do ‘you’ give authority to To ‘correctly’ interpret God’s Word? Some Fallible Human being? No way !!! Because God’s Word Also tells us that Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” but by all means read the verses around this verse for context’.
Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The point – that Every person in this world is a sinner – No exceptions. So – I choose to place My faith in the God who gave us His Infallible Word to Read , Study, live by.

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

BTW – I have NO intention of ‘converting’ and joining the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[ShanPO]

So – IF I’m understanding you correctly – you’re saying that Just because GOD created this world and everything in it – and that which we call The Bible / God’s Word was given to us BY God / The creator – that That doesn’t give His Word ‘authority’? That It’s NOT divine?

That would mean that this is where we part company. Because of 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be complete;, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.”

So who Do ‘you’ give authority to To ‘correctly’ interpret God’s Word? Some Fallible Human being? No way !!! Because God’s Word Also tells us that Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” but by all means read the verses around this verse for context’.
Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The point – that Every person in this world is a sinner – No exceptions. So – I choose to place My faith in the God who gave us His Infallible Word to Read , Study, live by.

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

Your answer is exactly why I asked you the question I did. Scripture is inspired by God, yes, but Jesus IS God! You make it seem like when the world was created, scripture was created right along with it, thereby giving it some divine authority it was never meant to have. Not one of the NT writers knew they were writing scripture, NOT A ONE, but yet it took a group of infallible men to decide which books were and were not scripture. Now, do you want to follow those who wrote and codified the bible, giving it the proper love and respect it is due, or do you wish to interpret the Bible as you currently do, with YOUR OWN fallible interpretation?

 

[adrift]

So – IF I’m understanding you correctly – you’re saying that Just because GOD created this world and everything in it – and that which we call The Bible / God’s Word was given to us BY God / The creator – that That doesn’t give His Word ‘authority’? That It’s NOT divine?

Divine had a few meanings but the two that apply is

1. of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God
2. being a deity.
   Definition one the bible does come from God and therefore it is divine that is it proceeds directly from God
   Definition two is that the Bible is not a god therefore is not divine.

The problem I see is that you don’t see a difference between the two meaning.

That would mean that this is where we part company. Because of 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be complete;, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

2 Peter 1:20-21.

Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation,

for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.”

This does not relate to anything unless you are saying that scripture is a god

Because God’s Word Also tells us that Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” but by all means read the verses around this verse for context’.
What point are you trying to make? I am making a guess that you are mixing up infallibility with impeccability but I might be wrong.

Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I am totally at a loss about your point here: shrug:

The point – that Every person in this world is a sinner – No exceptions. So – I choose to place My faith in the God who gave us His Infallible Word to Read , Study, live by.

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

Again a pointless quote. Scripture is clear that you can’t understand scripture on your own. You object to a fallible man and yet you trust your fallible judgment? How do you know that you are reading correctly? You ignore that Jesus did not leave us blind which is what you suggest when you say that He left us to our own fallible opinion. You prefer not to trust God’s word but in your fallible interpretation of it.

Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Your fallible opinion is that the keys are scripture although the context does not support that interpretation.

Exactly, I do hope that she learns the truth and does not hold on to her mistaken notions. I do hope that she has given up some of those notions.

 

[JamesTheJust]

So – IF I’m understanding you correctly – you’re saying that Just because GOD created this world and everything in it – and that which we call The Bible / God’s Word was given to us BY God / The creator – that That doesn’t give His Word ‘authority’? That It’s NOT divine?

The Bible is inerrant and has authority. But it’s not divine. To be divine is to be God, and I’m sure you’d agree that God and the Bible are not the same thing.

That would mean that this is where we part company. Because of 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be complete;, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

I don’t see “sufficient” in there, only “profitable”, as in “it’s helpful”, not “it’s all you need”.

So who Do ‘you’ give authority to To ‘correctly’ interpret God’s Word? Some Fallible Human being? No way !!! Because God’s Word Also tells us that Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

We believe that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error (cf. John 16:13). Therefore, we accept the doctrines of the Church on God’s authority, not on the authority of men.

By the way, last time I checked, you were a fallible human being too…

Either God gave us an infallible authority to teach us the meaning of His Word, or He gave us none at all, leaving us with no way to know what His Word means. Hmmm… Which sounds more reasonable to you?

The point – that Every person in this world is a sinner – No exceptions.

We 100% agree. We believe that the hierarchical Church is infallible (incapable of teaching error), not impeccable (incapable of sinning).

So – I choose to place My faith in the God who gave us His Infallible Word to Read, Study, live by.

No, you place your faith in your (fallible) interpretation of God’s Word, the completeness of which, by the way, you lack.

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

No disagreement here. Catholics worship God, and God alone.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So – IF I’m understanding you correctly – you’re saying that Just because GOD created this world and everything in it – and that which we call The Bible / God’s Word was given to us BY God / The creator – that That doesn’t give His Word ‘authority’? That It’s NOT divine?

That would mean that this is where we part company. Because of 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be complete;, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.”

So who Do ‘you’ give authority to To ‘correctly’ interpret God’s Word? Some Fallible Human being? No way !!! Because God’s Word Also tells us that Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” but by all means read the verses around this verse for context’.
Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The point – that Every person in this world is a sinner – No exceptions. So – I choose to place My faith in the God who gave us His Infallible Word to Read , Study, live by.

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

Tell me, how exactly do we know what is Scripture? And how exactly were Christians exposed to Scripture prior to a generalized literacy (which in Europe and the U.S. for most did not occur until at least the 19th century?)

IOW, when Paul wrote to Timothy that all Scripture is inspired, was Paul ‘aware’ that the gospels were Scripture (especially since many Protestants don’t believe that these gospels were actually written until long after Paul’s death)?

In the centuries (CENTURIES) before the canon of Scripture was finalized around AD 380, there were many works (such as the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermes) which were considered by various early Christians to be Scriptural --and these still remain as ‘good’ though not inspired teachings. Likewise there were many works especially gnostic ‘gospels’ which are likewise still ‘available’ but which actually taught incorrect teachings. All these things over the course of about 350 years could be presented as authoritative or Scriptural. How did it happen that Christians for the period from AD380 to around AD 1550 or so accepted 73 specific ‘books’ as Scripture (and many still do today) when there were all those other written works around claiming to be just as much ‘gospel true’ as the ones we now accept? Somehow, God gave some one --some ONE Church–the authority to discern Scripture. So if that One Church was given that authority to discern Scripture, why do you question its other teachings? When was its God given authority taken away, and what ONE CHURCH (we know from Scripture that God gave us one VISIBLE Church) replaced it?

 

[crochet_lady]

Jharek Carmelian
To answer your question – look at Church Miliants post from yesterday #143 or so about half way or so down he asked "IF … would I consider converting to the Roman Catholic church if I were to discover that the ‘Church’ was right all along. And I replied NO.

Is it possible that the reason This particular Forum – that Is Catholic – is ‘letting’ non-Catholics on – is to Try to ‘encourage’ the non-Catholic part of the world To ‘change’ / inform others of the Real truth that apparently only the RCC seems to have?

You see there Are people who believe that the ‘body of believers’ who chose to accept Jesus Christ as being God’s Son - Because He Did rise bodily from the dead.- Those are the folks who were the beginning of the New Testament ‘Church’. The Apostles were only those who were chosen to be such Because they had been with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry and witnessed His bodily resurrection.
The foundation of the church – 1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no one can lay any foundation other than what has Already been laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
And Galatians 2: 7 - 10 " On the contrary , they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles just as Peter had been to the Jews . For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles."
Paul was the apostle who wrote that book “sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead. --”
I’m sharing this info from my NIV study Bible.
So - according to the Galations passage – God was at work in ministry of Peter to go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. The ‘foundation’ as stated in I Corinthians 3:11 is Jesus Christ. And That was what Peter was 'confessing in Matthew.
And That is the foundation that I trust in./ Jesus Christ.
God inspired Paul to write all those books of the New Testament and Peter to write some, also. You Do understand what ‘inspired’ means.

Someone said that they believe that the ‘hierarchical Church’ is infallable – but Not incapable of sinning? So - they are incapable of teaching error but Not incapable of sinning? So - define ‘hierarchical’ Church. And How can Anyone be ‘incapable’ of teaching error? .

 

[JamesTheJust]

Jharek Carmelian
To answer your question – look at Church Miliants post from yesterday #143 or so about half way or so down he asked "IF … would I consider converting to the Roman Catholic church if I were to discover that the ‘Church’ was right all along. And I replied NO.

So even if you knew that the Catholic Church was God’s Church, and that all her doctrines were true, you wouldn’t convert? You would reject God’s truth rather than convert? :bigyikes:

You see there Are people who believe that the ‘body of believers’ who chose to accept Jesus Christ as being God’s Son - Because He Did rise bodily from the dead.- Those are the folks who were the beginning of the New Testament ‘Church’. The Apostles were only those who were chosen to be such Because they had been with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry and witnessed His bodily resurrection.

Yes, and Christ chose them to lead His Church.

The foundation of the church – 1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no one can lay any foundation other than what has Already been laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Yes, Catholics believe this. Without Christ, the foundation could not exist. But that’s not to say that Christ is the only stone in the foundation, even though He’s the most important one:

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone…

And Galatians 2: 7 - 10 " On the contrary , they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles just as Peter had been to the Jews . For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles."
Paul was the apostle who wrote that book “sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead. --”
I’m sharing this info from my NIV study Bible.
So - according to the Galations passage – God was at work in ministry of Peter to go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. The ‘foundation’ as stated in I Corinthians 3:11 is Jesus Christ. And That was what Peter was 'confessing in Matthew.
And That is the foundation that I trust in./ Jesus Christ.
God inspired Paul to write all those books of the New Testament and Peter to write some, also. You Do understand what ‘inspired’ means.

I don’t understand how any of this is relevant to our discussion of Church authority.

Someone said that they believe that the ‘hierarchical Church’ is infallable – but Not incapable of sinning?

That’s me .

So - they are incapable of teaching error but Not incapable of sinning?

When teaching authoritatively, they are incapable of error, yes.

So - define ‘hierarchical’ Church.

The Pope and the Bishops in full communion with him.

And How can Anyone be ‘incapable’ of teaching error? .

By the power of the Holy Spirit. If He can divinely inspire fallible men like St Paul and St Peter to, not only be protected from error, but also to write exactly what He wants them to write, why can’t He protect fallible men like those who compose the hierarchical Church from error?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So – IF I’m understanding you correctly – you’re saying that Just because GOD created this world and everything in it – and that which we call The Bible / God’s Word was given to us BY God / The creator – that That doesn’t give His Word ‘authority’? That It’s NOT divine?

That would mean that this is where we part company. Because of 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be complete;, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.”

So who Do ‘you’ give authority to To ‘correctly’ interpret God’s Word? Some Fallible Human being? No way !!! Because God’s Word Also tells us that Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” but by all means read the verses around this verse for context’.
Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The point – that Every person in this world is a sinner – No exceptions. So – I choose to place My faith in the God who gave us His Infallible Word to Read , Study, live by.

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

BTW – I have NO intention of ‘converting’ and joining the Roman Catholic Church.

My goodness… you are all over the place…

One thing at a time.

2 Timothy 3:16 - Paul is referring to what was understood to be Scriptures at the time. IOW - The Old Testament. What are you going to do with the New Testament then?

On this subject. What is the Old Testament at the time?

One thing at a time.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

One thing at a time.

All have sinned…

Did Jesus sin?

How about unborn babies that die from abortion or other medical reasons?

How about infants and toddlers? How do they sin?

How about those that lack mental faculties? How do they sin?

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

Have you seen my forum name?

Isaiah 45:9 “Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making’? or ‘Your work has no handles’?

Are we to question how God has decided to have things be?

Christ established a Church, a Teaching Office with His Church

Matthew 2816 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

What do we see here?

1. All authority has been given to Jesus, and Jesus delegates from His authority to the Apostles to:
   a) Go and make disciples.
   b) Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
   c) Commands the Apostles to teach others to observe all that He has commanded the Apostles.
   d) He is with them (Apostles and His Church) always.

What are we missing here?

The Bible.

Christ left us a Church and a Teaching Office with the Church to guide us in His name. The Bible came hundreds of years after. The Bible is part of the Church - not apart from the Church, and vice versa. What God has united, let no man break apart.

BTW – I have NO intention of ‘converting’ and joining the Roman Catholic Church.

How is this relevant to the conversation?

And, BTW, it is the Catholic Church.

 

[Mr_Clean]

Crochet Lady - when you see “infallibility of the Church” it doesn’t mean people in the Church (even all the way up to the Pope) are error free. What it does mean is when the Church comes out with authoritative teaching on what we as Christians are to believe, as has been done thru ecumenical counsils, it is believed the Holy Spirit has made sure we got it right.

I know thats probably not the best way to explain it but its how I understand it.

 

[Lion_Heart]

John does not say that the Word of God is the Scriptures much less that it is the Key that was spoken of when Jesus said to Peter I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

To claim that Scripture is the keys is unsupported by the context of Scripture itself.

I have already posted this but it seems right to post it again from the NAB

Greetings in Christ Adrift,

Many theologians believe the keys represents Authority and the Word of God.
In Luke 11:52 Christ has identified the key which open or shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luke 11:52; “Woe to you experts in the law! For you have taken away THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE.
You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

Beyond doubt:- THE WORD OF GOD IS THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE.

[CCC 124]; “The WORD OF GOD, which is the POWER OF GOD FOR SALVATION to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which HAND ON the ultimate truth of God’s revelation.”

As Christ’s ambassadors we have been opening the doors of the Kingdom of God with the Word of God.

Those who hear it and have faith in it are forgiven (loosed) of their sins and enter the Kingdom of Heaven, while those who reject the Word of God remain un-forgiven (bound) of their sins and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 3:16-18, 36; John 5:24; [CCC 124]; [CCC 137]; [CCC 141].

With love in Christ,
LH.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Can you explain the name change? And why Jesus gave Peter the keys? Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone or Keystone that ties the rest of the Church together. He is the Master Builder - the Church does not deny any of this. Still, Jesus said to Peter “you are rock and upon this rock I WILL BUILD”. Are you saying there is no significance to what Jesus said here? We have a name change, a declaration that a Church will be built, and keys being given. What for? Why say these things?

Greetings in Christ Mr Clean,

According to Rev.2:17 every Christian will have a new name. St. Paul has a new name as well. Mr Clean if you go to Heaven God already knows your new name.

Many theologians believe the keys represents Authority and the Word of God.

In Luke 11:52 Christ has identified the key which open or shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luke 11:52; “Woe to you experts in the law! For you have taken away THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE.
You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered.”

Beyond doubt:- THE WORD OF GOD IS THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE.

As it is described in Luke 11:52, false knowledge of the Word of God shuts the door of the Kingdom of God.

It is also described in Rom.1:16; John 5:24.
[CCC 124]; “The WORD OF GOD, which is the POWER OF GOD FOR SALVATION to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which HAND ON the ultimate truth of God’s revelation.”

As Christ’s ambassadors we have been opening the doors of the Kingdom of God with the Word of God.

Those who hear it and have faith in it are forgiven (loosed) of their sins and enter the Kingdom of Heaven, while those who reject the Word of God remain un-forgiven (bound) of their sins and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 3:16-18, 36; John 5:24; [CCC 124]; [CCC 137]; [CCC 141].

Any interpretation that Christ ever said that He will build His Church on Peter CAN NOT be a correct interpretation, because that interpretation “is demolished” on 1 Cor.3:11 and on Eph.2:20.

According to the following Bible verses Is.28:16; Acts 4:12; Rom.9:33; 1 Cor.3:11-15; Eph.2:20; 1Pet.2:6-8:-
Jesus Christ is the FOUNDATION of the Catholic Church with the APOSTLES and PROPHETS.
Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Cornerstone.
The Catholic Church built on the above foundation.

The teaching that Peter is the foundation of the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church is built on Peter is far from the truth.

I believe many Christian would agree with the following statements:-

Our faith in the Word of God opens the door of the Kingdom of God.
Our lack of faith in the Word of God closes the door of the kingdom of God.

As Christ’s ambassadors, the Word of God is our key to the kingdom of God.
We all have the key (Word of God) of the Kingdom of God.
It is up to us how we use it for ourselves and as Christ’s ambassadors for the salvation of others.

[CCC 124]; “The WORD OF GOD, which is the POWER OF GOD FOR SALVATION to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which HAND ON the ultimate truth of God’s revelation.

With love in Christ
LH

 

[adrift]

Greetings in Christ Adrift,

Many theologians believe the keys represents Authority and the Word of God.

That is a correct belief.

In Luke 11:52 Christ has identified the key which open or shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven.

You are incorrect. Just because Jesus uses the word key does not mean that key has the same meaning as the Keys He gave to Peter.
New Testament Verses Using ‘keys’

Revelation 1 18: and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.
Revelation 3 7: "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: `The words of the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens.
Revelation 20 1: Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain.

It should be obvious that there are other keys but what they have in common is authority. Jesus says to Peter I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Beyond doubt:- THE WORD OF GOD IS THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE.

A different subject not germane to the keys to heaven

[CCC 124]; “The WORD OF GOD, which is the POWER OF GOD FOR SALVATION to everyone who has faith, is set forth and displays its power in a most wonderful way in the writings of the New Testament” which HAND ON the ultimate truth of God’s revelation.”

Let complete it
Their central object is Jesus Christ, God’s incarnate Son: his acts, teachings, Passion and glorification, and his Church’s beginnings under the Spirit’s guidance

Those who hear it and have faith in it are forgiven (loosed) of their sins and enter the Kingdom of Heaven,

It takes more than just hearing. Hearing and having faith does not forgive sins.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven

while those who reject the Word of God remain un-forgiven (bound) of their sins and cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (John 3:16-18, 36; John 5:24; [CCC 124]; [CCC 137]; [CCC 141].

With love in Christ,
LH.

None of your citations support your statements. When Jesus speaks of His word He is not speaking of scripture. No where will you find Jesus saying go and write down what I have spoke to you but He said go and teach. Scripture is important but the Church which gave us
Scripture is the foundation of the people of God. The Church founded on Peter has the authority there is no authority given the Scriptures.

One other note. You don’t need to repeat a post it is a waste of band width.

 

[Church_Militant]

So – IF I’m understanding you correctly – you’re saying that Just because GOD created this world and everything in it – and that which we call The Bible / God’s Word was given to us BY God / The creator – that That doesn’t give His Word ‘authority’?

Authority, yes. Ultimate and final authority as to all that Christians believe and practice? Not at all. Read it for yourself…it nowhere lays claim to any such.

That It’s NOT divine?

Not at all. if one believes this then by extension all of creation is divine and that is exactly the sort of deification of scripture, (and all creation in this case) that we are talking about. It is contrary to God’s Word and authentic Christian teaching. I would suggest that you not take my word for it, but take it up with your own pastor because I suspect he will agree with me.

That would mean that this is where we part company. Because of 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness , that the man of God may be complete;, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

No problem there. We faithful Catholics will readily say “Amen and Alleluia” to what that verse says, but will disagree with your personal interpretation of it. Just because something is “profitable” (“useful” most translations say) doesn’t mean it is all sufficient by any means. A tool like a knife is profitable in many situations, but it is not all sufficient…or even profitable in all situations The same is true here…

John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.”

Again…no problem at all with what that verse says, but that is Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ speaking plainly about himself and the Father. It in no way even remotely infers an application to the Bible.

So who Do ‘you’ give authority to To ‘correctly’ interpret God’s Word? Some Fallible Human being? No way !!! Because God’s Word Also tells us that Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” but by all means read the verses around this verse for context’.
Romans 6:23 " For the wages of sin in death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

We’ve already shown you that the New Testament tells us that Our Lord established his church on the apostles and Peter as their chief. That apostolic succession has been maintained for 2,000 years in the Catholic Church and He Himself promised to send His Spirit to lead us into all truth and that he would be with his church always until the end of time. As for your doubt that He can protect that church from error in spite of its sinful members, you should remember that He also tells us “With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.” in Matthew 19:26.

The point – that Every person in this world is a sinner – No exceptions. So – I choose to place My faith in the God who gave us His Infallible Word to Read , Study, live by.

Well and good. faithful Catholics do so as well…however, deifying scripture…thus making it equal to God, is nowhere found in the Bible, or in Christian doctrine. It is an errant interpretation and a good example of why we reject Sola Scriptura because this is and example of its fruits.

Try reading Isaiah 45: 5 - 13 or so." I am the Lord, and there is no other, There is No God besides Me."

No issue there. We agree completely with what that verse says about God. However…you cannot show where it in any way even infers an application to the Bible.

BTW – I have NO intention of ‘converting’ and joining the Roman Catholic Church.

Jharek Carmelian
To answer your question – look at Church Miliants post from yesterday #143 or so about half way or so down he asked "IF … would I consider converting to the Roman Catholic church if I were to discover that the ‘Church’ was right all along. And I replied NO.

My bad guys. See post 143 above where I asked if she would be willing to convert if we showed her errors in her beliefs. Sadly, I think what we have here is a closed mind.

Is it possible that the reason This particular Forum – that Is Catholic – is ‘letting’ non-Catholics on – is to Try to ‘encourage’ the non-Catholic part of the world To ‘change’ / inform others of the Real truth that apparently only the RCC seems to have?

As if that is different than any other religious forum around? Why would one ever bother to witness for Christ if we didn’t believe in the truth that we have? John Martignoni sums this up beautifully in his message **Does God want everyone to be Catholic? **
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

You see there Are people who believe that the ‘body of believers’ who chose to accept Jesus Christ as being God’s Son - Because He Did rise bodily from the dead.- Those are the folks who were the beginning of the New Testament ‘Church’. The Apostles were only those who were chosen to be such Because they had been with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry and witnessed His bodily resurrection.
The foundation of the church – 1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no one can lay any foundation other than what has Already been laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
And Galatians 2: 7 - 10 " On the contrary , they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles just as Peter had been to the Jews . For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles."
Paul was the apostle who wrote that book “sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead. --”
I’m sharing this info from my NIV study Bible.
So - according to the Galations passage – God was at work in ministry of Peter to go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. The ‘foundation’ as stated in I Corinthians 3:11 is Jesus Christ. And That was what Peter was 'confessing in Matthew.
And That is the foundation that I trust in./ Jesus Christ.
God inspired Paul to write all those books of the New Testament and Peter to write some, also. You Do understand what ‘inspired’ means.

We know this all too well. But answer me this. If, as we know from the New Testament, God is not a God of confusion (1st Corinthians 14:33), and all these thousands of various n-C communities profess two essential things, 1) they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and 2) they teach the truth of the Bible, then why do they not all agree as to doctrine? Who’s right then…and how do you know?

Someone said that they believe that the ‘hierarchical Church’ is infallable – but Not incapable of sinning? So - they are incapable of teaching error but Not incapable of sinning? … And How can Anyone be ‘incapable’ of teaching error? .

Does God ever fail to keep his promises? Then when he says “With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.” in Matthew 19:26, is he incapable of making it so in his church?

 

[spina1953]

I would like to point out that it was to the Catholic Church that we have Sacred Scripture and it was to the Catholic Church to decide what to consider what writings were to be Sacred Scripture and what would not be called Sacred Scripture. The Bible as we have it did not just come down from heaven complete. It is a collection of oral expressions of many different stories, beliefs and the culture of a people that at different times began to be written down. Few of the Biblical books, especially those of the Old Testament, came to us straight from the pen of an individual writer. The authors of the Old and New Testament did not think themselves inspired nor did they think that what they wrote was Sacred Scripture. The various writings collected to form the Old testament grew out of a long and varied development. None of the authors thought of themselves as composing divinely inspired literature which would be used as a guide by succeeding generations. There are two main Jewish traditions concerning what is the Old testament, The Palestinian and the Alexandrian also known as the Septuagint. The Alexandrian was translated into Greek by Jewish scholars and became the Scriptures commonly used by the early Christian Church. This body of Christian writings into what we revere as the New Testament was a process comparable to the development of the Old testament. Jesus left no written records or writings. The Apostles themselves, with few exceptions did not write anything or leave any written records of what they preached or taught.

In the first years after the resurrection, there was little thought given to writing down a Christian library. Some of this was undoubtedly due to the example of the Lord Himself, who, like the rabbis of the time, taught by the spoken word, which in turn was remembered and discussed by disciples. There was not need for writing, while the Apostles were still alive to clarify or verify anything uncertain. So how were the present New Testament books finally selected? There were the various factors to be considered; Apostolic origin, the importance of the community addressed, the centrality of the doctrine contained. In the final analysis, however, it was the Church’s awareness, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that certain books were an authentic and necessary reflection of her own life of faith. This community of believers saw their own faith in these books as in a mirror.

The Sacred Scripture as we have them defined by the Catholic Church, is of the Catholic Church, it belongs to the Catholic Church, and it is to her office therefore, to declare what is Sacred Scripture and what it means. It was intended for instruction, meditation, spiritual reading, encouragement, devotion, and it also serves as proof and testimony of the Catholic Church’s doctrines and authority; however, as a complete and exclusive guide to heaven in the hands of everyone that the Bible above the Church, the Bible and Bible only independent of the Church, where anyone can decide for themselves and interpret for themselves and decide what is or is not doctrine is pure folly. Since the time of the Apostles, Peter together with the rest of the Apostles, the Catholic Church since that time has never not faithfully transmitted, preserved and protected what has been handed down through the Catholic Church.

 

[Mr_Clean]

Lion Heart #155 - I totally disagree with your view about the name change. Unlike Peter, Abraham, Sarah, Joseph and several others, my name being changed is not part of Sacred Scripture (yours either for that matter). In the cases where God changed a persons name it was done so to acknowledge God was going to use that person to bring about something of grand importance. So you can try to dismiss Simon Peter all you want but it doesn’t change the fact God did this for a reason. Its not like giving him a nickname like we do to each other. Also, a foundation does not normally consist of one stone by itself. A chief conerstone or keystone is the stone that ties the other stones together.

 

[Church_Militant]

JC, I have to kinda laugh because apparently CL was expecting us to be a bunch of Biblically ignorant sheep who never thought through why we believe what we do (or something).

I mean…think about it…what other possible purpose does any religious site have for existing if not to offer others a chance to learn and be converted. This is completely in line with the Great Commission in Matthew 28 where Our Blessed Lord mandates
* g Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19h Go, therefore,* and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20*(“http://www.usccb.org/bible/matthew/28#48028020-i”) teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.* And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

I mean…what? It’s okay for Baptists and other n-Cs to do this but not us? Really?

 

[Modern_Revert]

This entire exchange reminds me of a post by Mark Shea, entitled:
“Behold the Spam of God”.

mark-shea.com/spam.html

 

[crochet_lady]

Lion Heart #153

 

[crochet_lady]

Well – ya’ll continue to discuss ‘whatever’ amongst yourselves, because there are so many different views just amongst You folks, I get ‘dizzy’ Enjoy 2014