SPLIT: The origin of the Catholic Church & Constantine

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I was not implying nor suggesting that the passages I used endorse a private twisting of Scripture. I was merely saying that the Ethiopian did not understand what he was reading and that Philip explained the passage the Ethiopian was reading. That was my point. Also though anyone can read and interpret Scripture that does not mean that they understand what it is that they are reading or that their own personal interpretation is correct. Of course the eunuch was humble enough to admit that he could not understand the prophecy. This not always true of everyone, there are those who think that their own personal interpretation is the correct one and all others are incorrect or wrong.
Although I may have done so poorly, I was backing your post up. It is the private interpretation of scripture - without authority - which always leads to error. We see that error in the post which we are both responding to. This is why both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have defined “bible alone” as error.
 
Although I may have done so poorly, I was backing your post up. It is the private interpretation of scripture - without authority - which always leads to error. We see that error in the post which we are both responding to. This is why both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have defined “bible alone” as error.
po18guy: Sorry I did not realize that you were backing my post up. I misunderstood, which sometimes I do. Of course you are very much correct that private interpretations without the guidance of the Catholic Church always leads to errors. I do read Scripture and though I may understand and interpret it I look to the Catholic Church not just for guidance but to make sure that what I understand and interpret is, is as the Catholic Church teaches . If ,my understanding and interpretation is incorrect then it is because I did not understand what I read and it is only because of the Catholic Church teaching that I can rely on which is always better than my own and know with certainty that I am wrong and incorrect, and bring myself into line with what the Church teaches
 
For one thing – “Why aren’t the books of the Apocrypha in all Bibles?” gracethrufaith.com / an interesting article. And there are at least several more.
“They were written after the Canon of the Hebrew bible was complete – about 425 B.C. The word apocrypha means 'hidden, or secret”. Due to their doubtful authenticity the word has come to mean “fraudulent, or forged” by some scholars."
"Although some feel there are many more, The Apocrypha is normally made up of 14 books which are found in Greek and Latin translations but never in the Hebrew Old Testament. When Jerome translated the O.T. into Latin he refused to include them within the body of the book and established a separate section… Only 11 of these are included in the Catholic Bible today, but all 14 can still be found in the Orthodox Bible. "
"It was never in the Hebrew Canon
Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the N. T. writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha.
Josephus, a well-known historian from the Biblical era, excluded them from his list of sacred scripture. He felt they were lacking authenticity or validity in essence or origin.
During the first four centuries there was no mention made of the Apocrypha in any catalogue or canonical book. They were believed to be slipped in during the 5th century.
They were never asserted to be divinely inspired or to possess divine authority in their contents.
No prophets were connected with these writings. Each book of the Old Testament was writen by a man who was a prophet.
These books are replete with historical, geographical and chronological errors, In order too accept the Apocrypha one would have to reject the Old Testament narratives.
The doctrines and practices are contrary to the Canon of Scripture.

There is some historical insight to be gained from the Apocrypha, since they were written in the time between the O. and N Testaments. But extreme caution must be exercised.

So - the above is basically what the article is saying.

The Etheopian eunich – the Holy Spirit had sent Philip to the man – I’d said Peter earlier – wrong man. The point I’d been making was that there Was Scripture to be read at that time in history. It was Isaiah 53: 7 & 8. Obviously in this situation there was no twisting and misapplying Scripture
When Scripture Is shared it needs to be in context. The Holy Spirit is the teacher of the person’s heart.

There are those who’ve been taught that the Only person who is capable of Really, Truly understanding Scripture is the priest of the given parish. The truth is that the ordinary person is Very able to sit down, on their own, read Scripture – verse by verse -chapter by chapter and understand what they are reading. Scripture in context is fascinating.
However – it’s ALSO very true that lots of people like to ‘cherry-pick’ verses / passages to have Scripture say what They want it to say. And that’s why there are So Many belief systems Out There.
And there Are the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to every born-again person. 1 Corinthians 14 talks about the gifts of prophesy and tongues. Ephesians 4:11-13 or so. Romans 12: 6 - 8 – the various gifts that a person can be given one or more Of.

Philip was a Good example of a man being led by the Holy Spirit to share Scripture with another person who had a question.

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”

John 14:6 Jesus Christ is saying “I am the way the Truth and the Life - no man comes to the Father, but by Me.”

Hebrews 1:1 - 3 “God…through the prophets …has in these last days, spoken to us by His Son, …when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the
Majesty on High.”

Merry Christmas to ya’ll.
 
crochet lady: I am not sure where you are getting your information but you are incorrect about what you wrote. The Hebrew canon was not completed in 425BC as for example: the Sudducees only believed in the 1st. 5 books of Hebrew Scripture and did not believe in resurrection of the body. The Pharisees and some of the Scribes, though not all followed the belief in the 1st. 5 books of Moses and the Prophets, the Law, and the Wisdom books. The Pharisees also believed in resurrection of the body. When the Hebrew canon was accepted only those books that were written in Hebrew were accepted and those books written in Greek and Aramaic were not accepted as Hebrew canon. The Apocrypha is a term used by Protestants for what Catholic’s call the Deuterocaonical books. By what right does anyone to assume that one can decide on their own what books can be in the Bible or not? when the Church decided what books were sacred and which ones were not. It took a long time to decide and Luther on his own decided because he thought himself a theologin and knew better than the Catholic Church what was sacred and what books were not. Since then the Protestant denominations went along with it. because those books were contary to the beliefs they were preaching.
 
I commend those in here who have defended the Faith and the Church; what patience it must take to constantly go about and rehash again and again the utterly obvious with our separated Protestant brethren.

👍
 
This whole idea of the Catholic Church beginning with Constantine was perpetrated by Lorraine Boettner who parroted Alexander Hislop(His-slop) and his superficial, fanciful, illogical, and erroneous “histories”.

It simply bears no basis in fact.
 
This whole idea of the Catholic Church beginning with Constantine was perpetrated by Lorraine Boettner who parroted Alexander Hislop(His-slop) and his superficial, fanciful, illogical, and erroneous “histories”.

It simply bears no basis in fact.
Gosh, does he write for the History Channel???
 
Ya’ll might want to check a few other articles
"Were the early Christians Roman Catholic? - Behind the Badge
www.behindthebadge.net

Constantine the Great
en wikipedia

History of the Cathollic Church
wikipedia 1st was Emporer Constantine 1 (313) and then 380 Theodosius 1
 
Ya’ll might want to check a few other articles
"Were the early Christians Roman Catholic? - Behind the Badge
www.behindthebadge.net

Constantine the Great
en wikipedia

History of the Cathollic Church
wikipedia 1st was Emporer Constantine 1 (313) and then 380 Theodosius 1
You can’t just spit links at us and avoid answering our arguments.
 
For one thing – “Why aren’t the books of the Apocrypha in all Bibles?”
books that are truly apocryphal aren’t in scripture by definition.

books you’re speaking of aren’t apocryphal they are deuterocanonical, meaning they are scripture, and therefore part of the canon.

pick a subject from what you’d like to read from on this topic
catholic.com/search/content/deuterocanonical
cl:
"They were written after the Canon of the Hebrew bible was complete – about 425 B.C.
There WAS no Jewish canon of scripture in 425 B.C. The Jews in the 1st century that **did NOT accept Jesus **had no canon of scripture till the end of the 1st century at their meeting in Jamnia. Their canon is the canon protestants accepted

The Jews in the 1st century that DID accept Jesus and made up the Catholic Church Jesus established, (the apostles and all the early Church) accepted the Septuagint. The books in the Septuagint were completed ~200 B.C.
cl:
The word apocrypha means 'hidden, or secret". Due to their doubtful authenticity the word has come to mean “fraudulent, or forged” by some scholars."
"Although some feel there are many more, The Apocrypha is normally made up of 14 books which are found in Greek and Latin translations but never in the Hebrew Old Testament. When Jerome translated the O.T. into Latin he refused to include them within the body of the book and established a separate section… Only 11 of these are included in the Catholic Bible today, but all 14 can still be found in the Orthodox Bible. "
"It was never in the Hebrew Canon
Depends on which Hebrews you’re talking about.

Jesus + His apostles + the early Catholic Church (pre ascension) is 100% Jewish.

Jews that didn’t accept Jesus or His Church didn’t accept the Septuagint.
cl:
Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the N. T. writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha.
Wrong

ewtn.com/library/answers/deuteros.htm
cl:
Josephus, a well-known historian from the Biblical era, excluded them from his list of sacred scripture. He felt they were lacking authenticity or validity in essence or origin.
Josephus wrote in Greek, and quoted from the Septuagint. newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm . Which means he read from it.
cl:
During the first four centuries there was no mention made of the Apocrypha in any catalogue or canonical book.
there was no “bible” as we call it, till 381 a.d. @ the council of Rome. That canon in 381, is the same canon we have today.
cl:
They were believed to be slipped in during the 5th century.
wrong
cl:
They were never asserted to be divinely inspired or to possess divine authority in their contents.
List the NT books (with notations) where they claim to be inspired.
No prophets were connected with these writings. Each book of the Old Testament was writen by a man who was a prophet. These books are replete with historical, geographical and chronological errors, In order too accept the Apocrypha one would have to reject the Old Testament narratives. The doctrines and practices are contrary to the Canon of Scripture. There is some historical insight to be gained from the Apocrypha, since they were written in the time between the O. and N Testaments. But extreme caution must be exercised.
You have no authority to make such claims.
cl:
The Etheopian eunich – the Holy Spirit had sent Philip to the man – I’d said Peter earlier – wrong man. The point I’d been making was that there Was Scripture to be read at that time in history. It was Isaiah 53: 7 & 8. Obviously in this situation there was no twisting and misapplying Scripture
When Scripture Is shared it needs to be in context. The Holy Spirit is the teacher of the person’s heart.

There are those who’ve been taught that the Only person who is capable of Really, Truly understanding Scripture is the priest of the given parish. The truth is that the ordinary person is Very able to sit down, on their own, read Scripture – verse by verse -chapter by chapter and understand what they are reading.
The truth is, the bible is a Catholic Church book. The NT was written in, by, for, the Catholic Church.

As Augustine said,

For my part, I should not believe the gospel except moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manicheus, how can I but consent?" Augustine, Epistle of Manichaeus ch 5, paragraph 6 (A.D. 397). newadvent.org/fathers/1405.htm

Read that entire pragraph from Augustine in particular, don’t just look for the quote to validate that it comes from this epistle. And may I suggest reading the entire epistle in general. While the Baptist religion didn’t come into being till the 17th century, today’s Baptists telling Catholics how to believe, are like Manichaeus was in his day telling Augustine how to believe. BTW, Manichaeus was a heretic in case you didn’t know.
 
Ya’ll might want to check a few other articles
"Were the early Christians Roman Catholic? - Behind the Badge
www.behindthebadge.net
Go back and look at the internal links I provided starting from the 1st century ECF’s… Those are primary sourses.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11530672&postcount=19

BTW, The official name of the Church is the Catholic Church. “Roman” or “Latin” is a rite within the Catholic Church. It happens to be ~98% of the 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide, but the other Catholic rites ~2% of the total, are 100% Catholic.

“Roman” as a qualifier, coming from protestants, regardless of stripe, got its start here [Roman Catholic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm) with Anglican protestants.
cl:
Constantine the Great
en wikipedia
Anybody can write an article for Wiki and anybody can edit an article in Wiki. What’s that say about Wiki ? :rolleyes:
cl:
History of the Cathollic Church
wikipedia 1st was Emporer Constantine 1 (313) and then 380 Theodosius 1
You’re not doing yourself any favors by quoting from Wiki.

I’m repeating myself but these are primary sources. Please open the links and see how those who lived in the time, wrote and thought in their own words.
 
Go back and look at the internal links I provided starting from the 1st century ECF’s… Those are primary sourses.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11530672&postcount=19

BTW, The official name of the Church is the Catholic Church. “Roman” or “Latin” is a rite within the Catholic Church. It happens to be ~98% of the 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide, but the other Catholic rites ~2% of the total, are 100% Catholic.

“Roman” as a qualifier, coming from protestants, regardless of stripe, got its start here [Roman Catholic (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13121a.htm) with Anglican protestants.

Anybody can write an article for Wiki and anybody can edit an article in Wiki. What’s that say about Wiki ? :rolleyes:

You’re not doing yourself any favors by quoting from Wiki.

I’m repeating myself but these are primary sources. Please open the links and see how those who lived in the time, wrote and thought in their own words.
, v 2-3]
  • Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54
  • The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
  • Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, [snip] . And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, [snip] though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental (ch 5 v6)
  • etc
steve b: excellent information. I can’t see how anyone can refute what you have given as to the origin of the catholic Church.
 
For one thing – “Why aren’t the books of the Apocrypha in all Bibles?” gracethrufaith.com / an interesting article. And there are at least several more.

"They were written after the Canon of the Hebrew bible was complete – about 425 B.C.
…
"It was never in the Hebrew Canon

…When Jerome translated the O.T. into Latin he refused to include them within the body of the book and established a separate section…
Code:
***Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the N. T. writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha***.
***The doctrines and practices are contrary to the Canon of Scripture. ***
…

Merry Christmas to ya’ll.
I’ll just address these assertions of your post, as they are the most compelling.
"**They were written after the Canon of the Hebrew bible was complete – about 425 B.C
"It was never in the Hebrew Canon.**
Upon what basis was the “Canon of the Hebrew [bible]” declared ‘complete’? When did this supposedly occur? I am not aware of any such ‘declaration’–certainly not before Christ (and any such declaration after, would naturally be rather problematic for the Jews).

…also worth noting–the Septuagint–the Greek translation of the Hebrew scripture–was completed between 200 and 100 BC. All TWELVE Tribes of Israel were represented in the process. It contained the 6 books that are in the Catholic Bible, but not the protestant bible.
…When Jerome translated the O.T. into Latin he refused to include them within the body of the book and established a separate section…
Partially true. St. Jerome didn’t refuse to include them; he proposed to exclude them. ***But he was commissioned by Pope Damasus to translate the Bible into Latin. ***

St. Jerome followed the Hebrew OT, which had excluded those books. But the Hebrew OT had to be reconstituted, because the originals were lost upon the sack of Jerusalem and the Temple, in 70 AD. They were reconstituted from the Septuagint, This occurred around 200 AD–after Christianity had become problematic to the Jews–as a [sub] sect of Judaism. Hence those books were excluded precisely to make them less Christological.

Hence Pope Damasus instructed St. Jerome to include those books, which required him to translate them from Greek, rather than Hebrew. ***St. Jerome obediently did as instructed, by the very authority that had commissioned his services in the first place–Pope Damasus (ergo did not ‘refuse’). ***
Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the N. T. writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha.
No, but the version of scripture which they knew and used, was the Septuagint-which was referred to in the NT over 135 times, to the exclusion of the later reconstituted Hebrew OT which purported to exclude those books (precisely in order to make it less Christological)–in or around 200 AD.

Also worth noting–while this was true, neither Christ nor any of the Apostles, nor any NT writer, ever made any declaration against their inclusion in the Septuagint. Their inclusion in the Septuagint, is therefore the ‘rule’, and the exclusion of those books, must be conclusively established. The case for their exclusion was dubious, at best.
***The doctrines and practices are contrary to the Canon of Scripture. ***
This assertion naturally requires clarification–but it certainly begs the questions: what and who’s doctrines and practices, and what Canon were they supposedly contrary to?

Again, it is very telling that Christ and the Apostles at least tacitly approved of those books, never expressly stated anything against them, and the only authority which disclaimed them, was the Jewish authority, AFTER Christ–before, they had expressly APPROVED of them, by including them in the Septuagint.
 
Jesus Then refers to his name as Peter which means ‘rock’ and on this rock I will build my church.

Which Could mean that on this rock/ Foundation – 'all who believe, confess that Jesus is the Christ – the Son of the Living God – just like Simon Peter did are the Church. Cause in Psalm 62: 1 & 2 "Truly my soul silently waits for God: From Him comes my salvation. He only is my rock and my salvation. vs 7 "In God is my salvation and my glory; The rock of my strength, And my refuge, is in God "

That Jesus Christ - the Church - is built out of all the little rocks who are just like Peter.
And Satan isn’t / Won’t over come It – the Church of God.
Code:
 Peter was used of God to share the 'keys' of heaven and Hades with all who would listen. The 'key' being God's Word.  In Galations 2:7 p Paul was specially chosen by God to preach to the Gentiles and Peter has been chosen to preach to the Jews.
I must firstly make it clear that my following statements are not church teaching, but just something I noticed while studying Judaism. I put two and two together, and it backs church teaching:

In the Old Testament only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies - into the presence of God himself. The Day of Atonement was the only day of the year on which this happened.

The High Priest actually went into the Holy of Holies 4 times on that day. The first time was to offer incense before the Lord. The second time he brought blood to atone for his own sin. The third time he brought blood to purify the sanctuary. After all of this, he left his garments in the Holy of Holies to signify that the atonement was complete.

After the Day of Atonement ceremonies were complete, the High Priest went back into the Holy of Holies the fourth time, for two purposes: To clean up the ashes from the incense ceremony and to retrieve the garments he had left inside the Holy of Holies. (remember: only the High Priest could EVER enter–even for mundane tasks such as these.)

Now this is where it gets interesting:

On the Day of Resurrection, we see Peter and John running to the tomb because they had been told by the women that Jesus was not there.

The scripture in the Gospel of John explicitly says that both Peter and 'the disciple that Jesus loved (usually thought to be John Himself) ran to the tomb and John got there first, but did not go in. It says that when Peter came, he went into the tomb and found the garments that had been left.

Why didn’t John go into the tomb first, since he got there first? And why does the scripture say that Peter went in first and found the garments? (the scripture seems to mention explicit details if they’re important). Remember, that only the High Priest could go back in and retrieve the garments. Was God confirming that Peter was the chosen successor?
That’s my opinion anyhow.
 
I must firstly make it clear that my following statements are not church teaching, but just something I noticed while studying Judaism. I put two and two together, and it backs church teaching:

In the Old Testament only the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies - into the presence of God himself. The Day of Atonement was the only day of the year on which this happened.

The High Priest actually went into the Holy of Holies 4 times on that day. The first time was to offer incense before the Lord. The second time he brought blood to atone for his own sin. The third time he brought blood to purify the sanctuary. After all of this, he left his garments in the Holy of Holies to signify that the atonement was complete.

After the Day of Atonement ceremonies were complete, the High Priest went back into the Holy of Holies the fourth time, for two purposes: To clean up the ashes from the incense ceremony and to retrieve the garments he had left inside the Holy of Holies. (remember: only the High Priest could EVER enter–even for mundane tasks such as these.)

Now this is where it gets interesting:

On the Day of Resurrection, we see Peter and John running to the tomb because they had been told by the women that Jesus was not there.

The scripture in the Gospel of John explicitly says that both Peter and 'the disciple that Jesus loved (usually thought to be John Himself) ran to the tomb and John got there first, but did not go in. It says that when Peter came, he went into the tomb and found the garments that had been left.

Why didn’t John go into the tomb first, since he got there first? And why does the scripture say that Peter went in first and found the garments? (the scripture seems to mention explicit details if they’re important). Remember, that only the High Priest could go back in and retrieve the garments. Was God confirming that Peter was the chosen successor?
That’s my opinion anyhow.
I think you just made a great point concerning Peter and John going into the tomb. While I had read that and thought about it many times in the past, and I seemed to understand it seems, it was always in the back of my mind, that Peter went in first seems to confirm what you stated that maybe Jesus was confirming Peter as His chosen sucessor. it makes a lot of sense now that you stated it. it sure ties in with Matt. 16.
 
Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the N. T. writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha.
Never mind that that’s blatantly false, we’ll get to that in a moment. First, I’d like to refer you to Wisdom 2:12-20, which is one of the clearest Messianic prophecies I’ve ever seen:

“12 Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training. 13 He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord. 14 He became to us a reproof of our thoughts; 15 the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange. 16 We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; 18 for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries. 19 Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance. 20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected.”

Now to the quotations part. Almost one-third of the books of the Old Testament that you accept are never referred to or even alluded to at all in the NT. Neither Ecclesiastes, Esther, Song of Songs, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations, nor Nahum are quoted by Jesus or the Apostles.

Now a cogent example of a reference to a Deuterocanonical book is that found in Hebrew 11:35:

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection.

This is as close to a citation as one could get, as it is obvious that Hebrews 11:35, the second part, is speaking of the brothers in the Maccabees who died in the hope to rise again to a better life. See 2 Maccabees 7. No Protocanonical book has those events, where someone is tortured, and has the hope of the resurrection of life. Also, elsewhere there is a borrowing from Deuterocanonicals in the New Testament, even if there are not formal citations which are preceded by “It is written.” Paul for example, in Romans 1:19-32, clearly borrows from Wisdom 13. Wisdom 2:18-20 is clearly referred to in Matthew 27:43 as well. Also, James 1:19 clearly alludes to Sirach 5:11:

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath.

Sirach 5:11: Be quick to hear, and be deliberate in answering.

There are other references as well. Even if there are not quotations per se, the ideas are intertwined and a borrowing from the Deuterocanonicals is clear. An url that goes into even more allusions and borrowing from the Deuterocanonicals is here (including prophecies): scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html Another url that gives plenty of examples of the deliberate use of the Deuterocanonicals are here (at the bottom of the url) geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3975/deuter.htm Thus, the criteria that you use to eliminate these books not only do not eliminate these books as he ignores the clear use of these passages by Jesus and the apostles, but would eliminate 12 of the Protocanonical books that he accepts.
 
Great post! lots of information. I think that should clear up the misconceptions that crochet lady seems to have.
 
Neither Jesus Christ, nor any of the N. T. writers, ever quoted from the Apocrypha.
‘‘And he shall be called a Nazarene’’ (from the Gospel of Matthew 2:23)

No Biblical scholar anywhere has been able to find this in any Bible we have today, apocryphal or not. Guess this is from a ‘lost’ book.

So, I don’t think what you’re saying is correct.

Respectfully,

Simca
 
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