SPLIT: What did Christ teach that wasn't written,and if it wasn't written how can you be sure He taught it?

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Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without the Bible,relying solely on sacred tradition?
Ask any of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century martyrs. Ask any illiterate person for the last two millenia.
Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without sacred tradition,relying solely on the Bible?
Normally, no, because the Bible itself depends on Sacred Tradition. Without Sacred Tradition, you wouldn’t have the Canon of the Bible.

But I understand that we can’t limit God to “normally, no”. So yes, there are exceptions.
 
Because one does not need sacred tradition,but one does need the Word of God/I don’t know where these traditons come from,besides the fact I don’t feel most are biblical,but I do need the Word,I know for a fact the the Word is inspiried,can’t say the same about tradtions of men.
And here we get the truth. You don’t know where these traditions come from; we are telling you and helping you so that you may know.

You don’t FEEL most are Biblical. Well, that doesn’t change the fact that the Traditions we have been showing you from the Bible ARE Biblical. This isn’t about how you feel or what you think. This is about facts. If you are going to argue on feelings and emotions, it is not necessary to continue with this thread, if you want to go on facts, then, please, look logically at the sources, references, and passages that the Catholics in this thread have provided.
 
N2thelight, you (and the *experts *you use to cut and paste from) seem to have a deficiency of understanding on the Catholic view on Forgiveness.

A Catholic CAN NOT go to a priest for forgiveness WITHOUT going to Christ. The two, in the Sacrament of Confession, are one.
 
N2, you have been very good answering several questions posed to you, but you have very conspicuously avoided this one:

WHERE IN SCRIPTURE ARE WE TOLD WHAT BOOKS BELONG IN SCRIPTURE?

asked another way,

WHERE IN SCRIPTURE ARE WE TOLD THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW IS INSPIRED AND THUS SCRIPTURE?

When asked the following questions, you answered:
  1. Where did the Bible come from?
  1. Who compiled the Bible?
2.Inspiried men of God
  1. Were they guided by the Holy Spirit?
3.Very much so
Please, show us in Scripture where the Bible says “inspired men of God” compiled the Bible and that these men were guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
N2, this is another question you’ve avoided.
John 20 - 21***(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”****** 22 *** And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.*** 23 *** Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
I ask you, how can someone who authoritatively says “God alone forgive sins” ascribe to Sola Scriptura after reading John chapter 20?
 
guanophore
Why do you think Jesus would ask His disciples to do something that was impossible for them?
Matt 6:14-15
14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matt 18:21-22
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.
The point of these verses is to forgive some one who sins against you.If someone steals from you,and later ask for your forgivness you can,however that person must still ask for forgivness from God which you cannot give him.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with asking a Priest to forgive you,please,you gota do better than that
 
The point of these verses is to forgive some one who sins against you.If someone steals from you,and later ask for your forgivness you can,however that person must still ask for forgivness from God which you cannot give him.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with asking a Priest to forgive you,please,you gota do better than that
Like this?

“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained,’” John 20:21.

Do you believe Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins for no reason? Or do you believe Jesus expected the Apostles to use that power? And if Jesus expected the Apostles to use that power, how would the Apostles know whether a particular person’s sins should be forgiven unless they had first heard that person’s confession?
 
It seems the Sacrament of Confession was pre-figured in the Old Testament. Where were the Jews clamoring that the Levitical Priests couldn’t forgive sins.
.then whoever is guilty in any of these cases shall confess the sin he has incurred***, 6 and as his sin offering for the sin he has committed he shall bring to the LORD a female animal from the flock***, a ewe lamb or a she-goat. The priest shall then make atonement for his sin. 7 "If, however, he cannot afford an animal of the flock, he shall bring to the LORD as the sin offering for his sin two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a sin offering and the other for a holocaust. 8 He shall bring them to the priest, who shall offer the one for the sin offering first. Snapping its head loose at the neck, yet without breaking it off completely, 9 he shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering against the side of the altar. The rest of the blood shall be squeezed out against the base of the altar. Such is the offering for sin. 10 The other bird shall be offered as a holocaust in the usual way. Thus the priest shall make atonement for the sin the man committed, and it will be forgiven.
Hmmmm… I see:
a) Confession
b) A Sin Offering (Penance in today’s Church, which I certainly prefer over bring a goat for our Parish priest to lop off its head.)
c) Forgiveness for Sins.Hmmmmm… sounds like the Sacrament of Reconciliation to me!!!
 
The point of these verses is to forgive some one who sins against you.If someone steals from you,and later ask for your forgivness you can,however that person must still ask for forgivness from God which you cannot give him.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with asking a Priest to forgive you,please,you gota do better than that
Haha, we already have.

But you like to ignore all those nettlesome “binding and loosing” texts, direct instructions to the Apostles and their successors.

This one should also prove pretty troublesome for you:

(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

The Gospel According to St. John 20:21-23

This isn’t talking about, “forgive them so I can forgive you of your sins”, as Christ does indeed tell us to do in the Our Father. No, here Christ tells the Apostles that whose sins you retain are retained.

I would really like to see you answer that, because you have yet to address it.
 
Im here on this site on my own,expressing my views,which are different than all of yours,as I expected for I am on a Catholic site,let me extend an invatation to the site where I am a regular member, Im not asking you to join,just check it out.

christianityboard.com/

Im a Holy Spirit filled, God fearing Christian,denomanalized by no group,my Church is the body of Christ with its many membered body of believers with Christ as the head with no one member greater than the other.
It appears that any interpretation of scripture that the staff disagrees with is banned because it is a Catholic doctrine and not a biblical concept.

christianityboard.com/praying-saints-past-t7671p7.html

So much for open discussion at your place. Notice that you’ve been allowed to present non-Catholic concepts for open discussion in this thread for 500+ posts while at your place a topic that presents opposing views doesn’t even make it to a hundred posts before being closed by the staff.

If they were confident in their position, they wouldn’t have closed the discussion down. Notice that such confidence is not lacking here. That in itself speaks volumes.
 
It appears that any interpretation of scripture that the staff disagrees with is banned because it is a Catholic doctrine and not a biblical concept.

christianityboard.com/praying-saints-past-t7671p7.html

So much for open discussion at your place. Notice that you’ve been allowed to present non-Catholic concepts for open discussion in this thread for 500+ posts while at your place a topic that presents opposing views doesn’t even make it to a hundred posts before being closed by the staff.

If they were confident in their position, they wouldn’t have closed the discussion down. Notice that such confidence is not lacking here. That in itself speaks volumes.
Oh my! How sad is this?
 
It appears that any interpretation of scripture that the staff disagrees with is banned because it is a Catholic doctrine and not a biblical concept.

christianityboard.com/praying-saints-past-t7671p7.html

So much for open discussion at your place. Notice that you’ve been allowed to present non-Catholic concepts for open discussion in this thread for 500+ posts while at your place a topic that presents opposing views doesn’t even make it to a hundred posts before being closed by the staff.

If they were confident in their position, they wouldn’t have closed the discussion down. Notice that such confidence is not lacking here. That in itself speaks volumes.
Sir Knight, did you see me over there, too? In my 20 posts, I’ve had two threads deleted (“Where in Scripture does it say which books belong in the Bible?”) and when they lock a thread, they will post in it so we cannot reply to what is posted.

Check out this reply: christianityboard.com/showpost.php?p=54948&postcount=5
 
Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without the Bible,relying solely on sacred tradition?
This is exactly what the first 380 years of Christianity were. No “bible” per se, just as Jesus left it. For the first decades, there were likely no NT writings of any type. So, answer this: are all that Christ taught in hell because there was no bible?
Is it possible for a person to abtain salvation without sacred tradition,relying solely on the Bible?
This is precisely what no Catholic or Orthodox is willing to bet their soul on. There is nothing in scripture which says you are saved by writings alone.

Big difference between these two.
 
No man can forgive your sins,period.
With that statement, you are basicly saying that Jesus spoke incorrectly in John 20:23 when He said: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

If Jesus was wrong about this, how can you be sure that He wasn’t wrong about other things. Every single one of His teachings COULD be incorrect – and we have no way of knowing which ones!
 
No man can forgive your sins,period.
And, no man can raise the dead, either, right? Except by the power of Christ. Which is easier to say: “your sins are forgiven”(Matthew 9:5, Mark 2:9, Luke 5:23) or “Tabitha, get up”? (Acts 9:40). In every recorded case where Christ forgave sins, he spoke the following words of absolution to the sinner: “Your sins are forgiven”. Every case. Jesus made the moment of grace known to the sinner. That is how Christ taught, that is how He practiced. That is the new tradition Christ alone handed on. Christ then gave the Apostles power over sin (it’s in your bible, too). You cannot rationally argue these scriptures. But, you probably will try.

Matthew 9:2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”

Luke 7:48 Then Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

Well, to believe your assertion, either Jesus or the Apostle John have to be lying. Here, John advises the young Christians that their sins have been forgiven “on account of His name”. Christ indeed forgave these sins, but through the office of the Apostle John.

1 John 2:12 I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.

How would John know these sins were forgiven unless he himself, or another Apostle had exercised the power given them by Christ? Remember, there was no sola scriptura then. There was no bible then.

If you have never heard the words of absolution, never known the moment of grace spoken by Jesus, taught by Jesus, handed on by Jesus, how can you honestly say your sins have been forgiven? Have your ears heard the words of Christ? Not your heart, your ears. That’s is how Christ forgave. We cannot imagine a better example, so we follow it. Perhaps you have a system superior to Christ.

You completely ignore the the teaching, the practice, the sacrament established by Jesus to forgive sins since day 1. Since you “confess directly to God”, you are also bypassing the “one intercessor”, Jesus Christ! Your “confession” does not make much sense here, and I worry about your salvation.

We all know you love Christ. But, your theology is paper thin, and unsupported by the very scripture which you believe is sufficient. You have been blinded by the lie of sola scriptura, and that is precisely why you cannot understand the ancient church that Christ founded.

I will pray that the Holy Spirit illumine your mind.

Christ’s peace.
 
The point of these verses is to forgive some one who sins against you.If someone steals from you,and later ask for your forgivness you can,however that person must still ask for forgivness from God which you cannot give him.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with asking a Priest to forgive you,please,you gota do better than that
I agree, but we have made some progress!
No man can forgive your sins,period.
You have conceded that your statement was falst. Man can forgive sins, starting with our offenses against one another.

Now we can move on to vicarious forgiveness.

John 20:21-23
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

The Father sent Jesus with the authority on earth to forgive sins. He sends the Apostles with the same authority.

There is only one other time in Scripture where God breathed into man the Breath of Life.

How do you suppose a sin can be “retained”?

Since scripture does not contradict itself…

" For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt 6:14-15

Obviously Jesus is not referring to trespasses that were against them personally, since failure to forgive those would prevent them from being forgiven themselves.

So, what sins are being referred to here?

How are the Apostles to make the decision to forgive or retain, unless someone is confessing?
 
Matthew 9:8 “But when the multitudes saw it, they marveled, and glorified God, Which had given such power unto men.”

“Unto men” reads in the original text, “unto a man”.

No man can forgive your sins,period.
Where did you get that translation of Matthew 9:8?
 
No, I don’t think it is stupid. Protestants are not taught to read the scriptures with the concept of sacramental grace in mind, so it is often not perceived that way.

When Jesus said “do this in memory of me”, Catholics understood from that day that Jesus was sacramentally present with them during Eucharist. They experienced His graces flowing during and as a result of the Sacrament.

Once Christians separated themselves from sacramental celebration, God’s Spirit being persistent, Christians also experienced graces outside of the sacraments.
Thanks. I was also thinking not only of Christians, but those of other faiths. God’s grace is omnipresent, no?

In Christ
 
Try the Catechism. This one is searchable so if you have a particular doctrine or question, it is easier to look it up. But you can purchase the book yourself and just start at the beginning. It is heavily cross-referenced with the Bible.
Thanks but I think at some point I asked NOT to have a reference to CCC which has its merits and demerits. Last time I set out on a journey through its propositions on sin and original sin and evil, I got completely tangled, and was no further ahead in understanding. It is not well cross-referenced to itself!

What I am looking for is a non-scriptural depiction of Jesus the Man and Jesus the Christ. I suppose I categorise things. I want to know what God thought he wanted him to do; I want to know what Jesus thought he was doing; I want to know why he was so willing to give up his life in such a heinous way. The themes are there, somewhere, everywhere.

In Christ
 
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